Hey, if you guys in IT wants jobs, move to Canada. (Well, Ottawa, or any other big government city).

The Canadian Federal government is desperate for IT workers (we're called CSes up here, because our classification is a CS-01, CS-02, CS-03).

CS-01 is entry-level, straight out of college or university, and they make between 29,000 and 45,000 a year. CS-02 is your 'average' developer/admin/second level support person, and they make 40,000 to 60,000 a year. C3-03 is 'advanced technical' (ie. senior developer, senior admin, etc.) or entry-level manager, and they make upwards of $53,000 a year. Of course, these are all in Canadian dollars.

Lots and lots of jobs in IT here, even with Nortel and other high-tech companies laying off a lot of people. The government is snapping them up quickly, because we desperately need good IT people, and for years haven't been able to compete with the private sector. Now IT people are looking towards the government for employment because of the job security.

Anyhow, as I said, most of my friends (30-somethings) with unversity degrees make upwards of $50,000 CDN a year. That's not rich, by any stretch - it's definitely comfortable middle class. You can pay the rent/mortgage, pay the bills, own a car, and have enough left over for 'extras' like comic books, dinners out, going to the movies, buying books instead of borrowing them from the library, but you certainly don't have any money for big ticket items, like big screen tvs or motor boats. Those are definitely left for those earning three-figure incomes.

Like Bill, I consider group '5' to be middle class. At least around here (and if you convert to CDN dollars)

Yes, but $53,000 Canadian is only $34,353.12 USD, then you have to pay all the Canadian taxes (which are much higher than US taxes).

I would say, in the US, that $50,000 household income is Middle Class. With that, you have a modest home, maybe one new car and one used car, and all the typical stuff.

Perspective on this differs depending on where you live and how old you are. What people consider "poor" 10 years ago is not the same, now. Now, if you can't afford internet and cable TV, then you are poor. It used to be that poor was that you could barely afford a roof over your head and food on the table. Perspective has changed. "Middle Class" has also changed. When I was growing up, Middle Class was considered as the people who could afford a house, had a newer car, and could afford a few small luxuries. Now Middle class is having a big house, one or two new cars, and some other luxuries. Perspective has changed.

who is this new girl on the msg boards??? Java you're really confusing me!
does not matter what the income it's never enough for most no matter where ppl are (atleast that is what you hear if you listen to rich ppl complaining all the time)
most important is to enjoy the job that you're stuck w/ until you retire maybe? and hopefully that job pays enough for the necessities in life...

and well maybe a big screen and a few computers but thats it! hehe

Bill, the average household income for Philadelphia was $40,227 according to the 2000 US Census ( http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?ds_name=D&geo_id=05000US42101&qr_name=ACS_C2SS_EST_G00_QT03&_lang=en ).

Here is the US household income breakdown per state (for year 2000), for the curious:

United States 42,148

Maryland 51,695
Alaska 50,746
New Jersey 51,032
Connecticut 50,360
Minnesota 50,865
Colorado 48,506
New Hampshire 48,928
Virginia 50,069
Delaware 50,154
Illinois 46,435
Utah 45,230
Washington 42,024
Michigan 46,181
Massachusetts 46,947
Hawaii 48,026
Wisconsin 45,349
California 46,802
Missouri 47,462
Rhode Island 42,973
Nevada 44,755
Ohio 43,894
Oregon 42,440
Iowa 42,993
Georgia 42,887
Pennsylvania 43,742
Indiana 39,717
Vermont 38,150
New York 41,605
Maine 41,597
Arizona 41,456
Texas 39,842
Nebraska 38,574
North Carolina 38,829
Kansas 37,705
Wyoming 39,026
District of Columbia 38,752
Idaho 37,462
Florida 37,998
Kentucky 37,186
South Carolina 37,119
Alabama 33,105
South Dakota 36,172
Tennessee 33,885
New Mexico 35,254
Oklahoma 32,445
North Dakota 35,349
Montana 32,045
Louisiana 30,219
Mississippi 31,528
Arkansas 30,293
West Virginia 29,052

Wow, those are some impressive stats! Are there similar stats for Canada.

Here perhaps: http://www.statcan.ca/start.html

So, the fourth, not fifth catagory would be the "middle class" range.

I thought California would be higher due to their higher cost of living.

'96 stats: http://www.ccsd.ca/factsheets/fsavin96.htm

Caylynn, even in Canada, $100,000 is not by any stretch considered average family income. According to Statistic Canada, the average Canadian family income is about the same as the number I gave for the US.

I also think the 60,000 to 120,000 bracket is a little broad. While I consider 60,000 to be the upper border of a middle class family, I definatly consider 120,000 to be rich. Not millionaire, but still a little rich.

Because the average IT salary is $50,000 doesn't mean everybody works in IT.

Okay, this thread is starting to depress me now. Although, if I look at it from a "household" standpoint, I guess my "household" only has one income. Double that, and I ain't doing so bad!

And yes, Bill, I really don't miss that city wage tax. That was actually the only PA tax I paid, since I lived in DE at the time! Though I had to pay for the privelege to park, too, which is sort of a tax. I think the only thing I really miss from that job is my door, though!

I'm in the same situation Glen. I'm the only income in my family but I don't consider myself poor whatsoever. I'm doing quite fine. We eat, we have a house, we're shopping for a new car right now. We may not go to the movies every week, but we can definatly do without it fine.
Double that and WOW!

Hey, come to live in Finland and *then* talk about taxes... *IF* (please, oh please ) I make over 1000€ per month, the goverment takes about 30% of it and cuts 65% of anything over the 1000.

sad thing is, we both make only about 900€ in total per month...

Paxx,

I'm not saying it's average. I'm saying that among my social group (ie. 30 somethings with university degrees) it is the average income. (And not all of us work in IT, but all of us would be classified as 'professionals'. My fiance, for example, knows nothing about computers, but serves as an Engineering Officer at the rank of Major in the Canadian army. Similarly, I have friends who work as Environmental Engineers, Communications Specialists in the government, and a variety of other jobs).

Of course, if you convert Canadian to American dollars, that all goes out the window.

Caylynn, yes, ok, as you said "in your social group".
I'm sure Bill Gates's "social group" also makes a bit of money.