Copyright, Trademark, and Tradedress

All modesty aside, I consider myself pretty familiar with intellectual property law. I didn't mean to become so well acquainted but having been sued over trademark and dealing with Apple, Microsoft, and going through the patent process have taught me what is what.

Unfortunately, most people on the Internet know very little on these issues. That doesn't seem to stop them from writing highly charged opinionated articles that make broad claims of intellectual property.

First off, forget what you think you know about IP law in theory. Theory and practice are two different things:
http://www.avault.com/developer/getarticle.asp?name=bwardell8

In real life, intellectual property protection goes as far as your money will take you. So forget the "Oh well Microsoft couldn't do anything about it because they'd be in the wrong on issue X, Y, Z." Wrong. If someone has money and you don't, they can grind you into the dust. You tick off a company and they can squash you like a bug no matter how righteous you think. And if you're a company, a bigger company can do the same to you.

That said, let's talk about the issue as it relates to skinning:

There are 3 issues that crop up:

1) Copyright violations
2) Trademark violations
3) Tradedress violations

1) Copyright violations are what are known as rips. People who aren't familiar with IP law think everything is a copyright violation. They're wrong. Copyright law is very specific. And it has a lot of gray areas. It has to do with taking someone elses material and using it without authorization and reproducing it. There is a lot of gray area on derivative works (hence where the lawyers come in). This is particularly true in digital art. If I take your wallpaper, apply tons of filters to it, and resubmit it, am I violating your copyright? It's a gray area that only the moderators of a given site or the court system can really decide, typically on a case by case basis.

Here at WinCustomize, we throw out copyright violations. Rips are copyright violations. You take someone's wallpaper and upload it here, that's a copyright violation and it's history. You take someone's skin and upload it here, same deal. You take someone's Hoverdesk theme and port it to Litestep without permission that's a copyright violation and it's gone.

The gray area comes up when you've made significant changes to it. Let's say you've taken a Kaleidoscope theme and ported it to WindowBlinds but doing so changed the actual graphics quite a bit but the final skin looks pretty much the same. Does that violate copyright? That's a harder case but it DOES violate trade dress which we'll talk about in a minute and we'd delete such a skin here. Having a gray copyright issue is one thing, add tradedress and that puts it over the top.

2) Trademark. This is where you take something that is designed to be associated with something else and use it for your own purposes.

There are two types of trademark issues:
a) Unauthorized use of trademark
b) Trademark violations.

You start up a fan site for Episode 2 and have Star Wars logo and other things on there from the movies and you hvae unauthorized use of trademark. Some companies work hard to enforce their trademark and stop fan sites. The X-box and Lord of the Ring skins here are unauthorized uses of trademark. We let skins like that here because they fall in the same category as fan websites.

Trademark violations are a different matter. That's where you're using someone else's trademark and re-defining it. This creates confusion which is why trademarks were created in the first place. If I took that X-box logo and used it to create "X-box Computers" which aren't affiliated with the game machine at all or are using it to sell a product designed to give users a false association then that can be a serious problem.

The two are quite similar and sometimes they decide that the former falls into the latter. Hence, if I start up a Coca-cola fan site they may be okay with that until I start selling Coca-Cola T-shirts. Then they may shut me down for giving a false association with their trademark.

3) Trade dress
This is fairly specific to skinning actually. When Apple demands people get rid of Aqua skins, they refer to Trade DRESS violations unless the skin actually uses the Aqua images and then they can bring in copyright violations as well (yes, icons ARE protected by copyright).

Tradedress is similar in enforcement to trademarks. Many many sites use the XP look. This is an unauthorized use of trade dress. The same is true of Luna skins. Microsoft is well aware of these and thus far has not objected.

So why do sits like Wincustomize allow OS skins? Aren't they rips? Nope. They do not violate copyright (unless they literally stole the bitmap resources which is possible but hard to tell). But they are unauthorized use of trade dress.

So when people argue that skin sites have double standards on ripping, the fact is, no, they don't.

Skins Sites police copyright violations. Rips are copyright violations. We find them, we eliminate them.

We trade the latter two issues (trade dress and trade mark) much like the equivalent of fan sites.

Geocities and Yahoo have zillions of Star Trek, Buffy the Vampire slayer, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, etc. fan sites on them. There are fan sites for most popular games, etc. WinCustomize treats this in the same way as Geocities and Yahoo handle the fan sites they host - if the trade dress/trademark holder objects, we'll help them enforce their rights. Otherwise we'll work on the assumption that they're sane companies that want positive expressions by fans to exist.

I for one would love to see an Episode II theme. And I suspect if George Lucas were into skinning he'd want one too.


13,219 views 42 replies
Reply #1 Top
geeeeezzzzzzzzzzz, its that bad???? I wanted to do a Spider-Man theme (actually a series of 3 themes) but now I am not so sure. The wallpapers I'm using I got from deviantart so I was going to ask the guys who designed them if I could use those images (even though all of those images are on the web but it is the way they placed them that I wanted to use) and make a theme(s). If I get their permission, will it show up here on wincustomize?
Reply #2 Top
Yea. If you ahve someone's permission to use their stuff it's fine.

Reply #3 Top
joetheblow...
Getting the 'artists' permission from Devart is one thing...provided that the artists there actually had permission to use those photos in the first place, which, I think you will find, they did not.
Those photo-walls on Devart are copyright 'rips', as with most [not all] 'fan-art', and there are movements afoot to correct this....
Reply #4 Top
I just hope that if it becomes an issue here, as it has in other places, that the people involved are treated with a little more dignity and maturity. Some recent posts from members have made me wonder... In reading the above it seems this can be a complex issue and I would hate to see a community lynch mob after someone here for a "grey area" violation.
Reply #5 Top
That pretty much sums of my view, Bill. Jafo is right in saying that permission to upload a rip is still a rip.

But if someone wants to create their own spiderman wallpaper that's something they created, that would be Fine. But taking a Marvel created wallpaper of Spiderman and uploading it as your own is not okay to illustrate the difference.

Reply #6 Top
And that's where it all boils down too. Not very complex --> if it's not yours get permission first.

By the way, did I just see bold text there?
Reply #7 Top
Craeonics, you mean like this and this?
Just be patient a little bit more. hehehe!
Reply #8 Top
nice one Frogboy. even after reading nearly all the threads on the subject of ripping here, i still wasnt totaly clear on all of the points.

and now i dont need to make a thread asking about bold text.
Reply #9 Top
Thanks for the post, Brad. It did serve to both enlighten and to clarify some of my questions. In particular, defining the three distinct issues (copyright, trademark, and trade dress) helped a bunch.

Overall, this is probably a positive thing since it will give skinners more freedom and artistic license. I was originally thinking that the laws were extraordinarily restrictive, but this helps to set my mind at ease.
Reply #10 Top
But if someone wants to create their own spiderman wallpaper that's something they created, that would be Fine. But taking a Marvel created wallpaper of Spiderman and uploading it as your own is not okay to illustrate the difference.

I guess I'm just dense..........even if I hand draw Spiderman, it's still a rip in my eyes. Spiderman is not my creation. So what right do I have to upload it, without permission?
I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm trying to understand.
This is all a lot less gray to me than to most. Until I'm convinced otherwise, I see copyright, trademark, and trade dress as the same thing here. If it ain't mine, it AIN'T mine!
You can change my mind Brad, but it won't be easy.....
Reply #11 Top
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.

I'm just explaining our policy. What we consider rips pertain to copyright.

Tradmark and trade dress we leave in a more gray-ish area leaving it up to the holders of those rights to decide what they want.

Eliminate fair use of trademark and trade dress and a very high percentage of your favorite websites would either be gone or would be reduced to much limited functionality.

Examples:
I could not go to TheForce.Net to hear about the latest in Star Wars news other than to read the actual text. No images would be there which would be a major bummer.

I could not visit the leakycauldrin to hear news on the next Harry Potter books and movies in the same way because they wouldn't be able to show any images or logos or fan art.

Fan art as an entirely class of art would be eliminated. So would fan scripts, fan stories, etc because they make use of Trademarked characters.

As a user, I want to be able to download and apply an Episode II skin or Wallpaper or theme. As a moderator, I won't let someone just take a wallpaper from starwars.com and repost it though.

Reply #12 Top
I realize you really don't care what I think, but it seems to me that by creating these gray areas, you are hurting the crusade to enlighten people about rips. Your policy is pecksniffian IMHO.
I'm not concerned about Fan Sites. I feel that major skinning sites such as WC, should be a little more concerned about obtaining permission for non-original works.
It's your site, so your call.
I hope photoskins aren't going to show up here.


Reply #13 Top
But I'm not on any crusade. Jafo and others may be but I'm not.

What I'm trying to show is that there aren't these gray areas you speak of. Copyright, Trademark and trade dress are very seperate legal things. If you or someone else chooses to mush them all together I don't see how you can hold that against me. It's like saying that speeding, murder, and car theft are all just "Crime" and should be treated equally. It's not a gray area if for Murder we put someone in jail but for speeding we give them a ticket. It's that those three crimes are distinctly different.

Similarly, how we handle trademark, copyright, and trade dress mis-use are different. Using someone else's copyright without license IS unconditionally wrong. Period. It's plagarism. It's ripping. It's stealing. Using someone else's copyright without their approval beyond fair use has no good side effects that I'm aware of.

Trademark and trade dress use, on the other hand, can benefit the IP holder by promoting the product, good or service.

Here's another way of looking at it, the copyright often IS the product. Trademark and trade dress are means of promoting that product.

That's why copyright violations are generally worse than unlicensed use of trademarks and trade dress.
Reply #14 Top
Koasati: if you reproduce Spiderman, it's still a rip. I don't care if you drew it yourself or if you just scanned a Marvel comic book. Same for Mickey Mouse or whatever.
But you cold make a quite decent Spiderman skin using spider webs, the Spiderman colors, the patern of his suit, etc. There are artistic ways to get away with it without rippings anything or anybody.
And besides it would be more imaginative and interesting. Why would anybody come here for just a scanned Spiderman poster. They can run it through their scanner themselves.
Reply #15 Top
BTW, just so we're clear with regards to "Crusades" (since I find that everythign I say tends to be misconstrued):

I would love to be on a crusade against IP violations but as a software developer I have too much obvious vested interest in it and hence my ability to persuade people of the need to respect intellectual property is greatly harmed as a result.

Everytime I have made a post somewhere about why it's wrong to rip things I inevitably get "Oh you just feel that way because you want to sell copies of WindowBlinds" (i.e. if I weren't in business making software I'd apparently be some sort of thief according to these people).

Anyway, that's what I mean about it beign better for Jafo and others to be the ones who promote respect for other people's intellectual property - they have no horse in the race (so to speak). No one can question their integrity.
Reply #16 Top
And I loathe horse racing...sport of kings...paupering the poor...

Randy...there are no photoskins here....I keep an eye on the uploads to the WinAMP section [famous and popular target for photoskins]...
If you find one, let me know and it'll be gone in no time...
Reply #17 Top
So, would I own the copyright if I have produced a Finder GUI for Windows- I've changed the go menu to quick access for example.
Reply #18 Top
/me kicks in the open door

"Oh you just feel that way because you want to sell copies of WindowBlinds"

And Babya-man, it doesn't even remotely look like the Mac Finder.
Reply #19 Top
Weel this screenshot of soon to be released version:
http://www.customize.org/details/14532

Instead of the Go menu item in OSX-I call it Quick Access.
Reply #20 Top
Well it looks like the first Spiderman logon was uploaded. I hope it can stay. What do you guys think?
Reply #21 Top
I just saw the Spiderman logon...
According to Brad, it's fair use. According to Paxx, it's a rip. It's a rip to me also! Paul, is avoiding the issue it seems.
Reply #22 Top
aafuss.....TEDDY!
Reply #23 Top
The Spider-Man logon is gone.
It was obviously a rip, since it was a wallpaper downloaded from the official Spider-Man website, and copyrighted to Sony Pictures:
http://www.spiderman.sonypictures.com/popups/wallpapers/spiderman/01_1024_768.html
Reply #24 Top
I have to agree. Without the permission of Marvel/Sony, I can't think of a better example of a rip.
Reply #25 Top
If the Spiderman logon hadn't been a wall from the official site, would it still be here?