Debates and skinning

from WinCustomize Forums
I'm curious as to how people in this community feel about debating. Some people I know simply don't like to get into disagreements or "constructive arguments" (aka debates). Other people (like myself) love to debate (as you've no doubt seen over the years).

In my off hours, I'll visit political, history, and technology sites purely to debate with other people who also like to debate. It's a great way to sharpen the mind's thought process and think through an idea or an opinion because you get in the habit of having to look at an issue from multiple sides which can save you grief later on.

Because I visit so many different "communities" (I'm very active in the game developer community for instance as well as several political discussion communities) it's easy to see general differences in how people act and feel and argue when they feel passionate about something.

It seems to me that most people in the skinning community are generally not into debating. Which is of course not bad at all. The only downside I've seen is the number of people who want to make assertions based on emotion or "gut feeling" but are disclined to have to back up that assertion with evidence or reasoning. It usually comes back to either "Well that's just how I feel" or it'll turn into a flame war.

I think sometimes one of the reasons why some people will see my posts on some site and consider me "combative" is because when I disagree with something, I try to get the person I disagree to back up their assertions.

Example:

"Program X sucks, it's just really slow and buggy."

If I disagree, I'll respond with:

"That hasn't been the case in my experience. What version did you run? What hardware? How was it buggy?"

In over 90% of the cases, I can never get a response. The user typically goes into "Well that's just my opinion, aren't I free to have opinions?" which is known in debate circles as a "strawman argument" (i.e. trying to redirect the debate into a different topic -- I wasn't implying he didn't have a right to an opinion, but merely to explain where his opinion derived from.

One thing about techies is that there is something unusual about them compared to other people. They have an unusually high desire to demonstrate knowledge -- even when they really don't have any knowledge. Hence the situation you see above. Because typically when I do get real answers about why they think program X sucks it's "I used version 1.2 3 years ago and it crashed on my Windows 95 box so I'm going to assume it hasn't changed in 3 years and how it would run on my new Windows XP machine..."

This is particular prevalent in IRC where those most inclined to behave in this way 15 to 21 year olds, will usually confuse ignorant criticism for providing knowledge (everything "sucks" to these 15 to 21 year old IRC people even if they're only vaguely familiar with it - sometimes it only requires hearing someone else who barely knows it to say something sucks for them to say it sucks).

I tend to take the view of not expressing an opinion unless I can back up my assertion with evidence - i.e. because of my debating background, I try to be ready to defend any position I take with reason and logic.

Which brings us back to the beginning - in the skinning community, there is a higher percentage than average of the population that doesn't respond well to reason and logic -- emotion, feelings, instincts and "that's just how I feel" are much more prevalent.

So those of you reading this, what do you think? Do debates make you uncomfortable? Is it your view that people should be entitled to their opinion and speak that opinion without being called on it? Or do you feel that when someone gives an opinion on something that others are equally entitled to call them on it?

I don't think either answer is better than the other. Afterall, on the one hand you don't want people to feel like they can't give an opinion on something without being challenged all the time. And on the other hand it's lazy intellectualism to constantly give opinions based on vague "gut feelings".

What's your view?
17,239 views 70 replies
Reply #1 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Brad you just like to type! hehe

/me comes back to read this in about 2 hours, I have to go build another report shoot!
Reply #2 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Brad: Debates are fine, but you need people of the same(or close to) mentality(there are exceptions). You cannot have a 40 year old debating a 10 year old. Todays generation is the now, me people. I see it everyday. They don't want to take the time to learn or work for something. They are mostly sheep following the leader. If you have to resort to swearing you generally do not have the smarts or the answers to whatever topic is being discussed. (I hate typing, I'd rather talk, plus you don't have to spell). Thats when they go on the defensive and go on the offence with thats my opinion and other such stuff. Thats another reason I prefer this site. It has a higher degree of intellect and maturity. As a mature,immature 50+ I've been around the world, seen and done a lot, some good and some bad, so I have a lot of opinions on a lot of subjects. But I'am more of a talker than a debater, but for the most part I like to read what other people think.
Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #3 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I think the Thinking/Feeling personality divide might be coming up here. Company CEO's are about the best example of Thinking - highly logical, reasoning. Most computer scientists test out as this type, too. Artists tend towards the Feeling side (although it's not as strong a correlation) - they're more willing to go on their feelings than logic or "proof" - appearance is very important. You might be able to get them to accept benchmarks as true, but they probably wouldn't base their judgement on them. They prefer to go by prior experience. Needless to say (but I'll say it anyway ), there are a lot of artists in the skinning community.

Obviously this isn't the whole story, but it's something to consider. People really do have brains wired up differently, and to some opinion is all that matters. This is one reason marketing is so popular - and successful. *g*
Reply #4 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Of late, I've been getting somewhat 'jaded' over this whole debating thing.
Educating various miscreants over the issues of copyright and its abuse at DevART has worn me out a bit...and add to that the silliness of defenders of Gun-ownership in the light of recent occurrences in Germany...
Just how many ways are there to rewrite history?
I always thought it was painfully simple...if ya ain't got a gun...you can't shoot someone.
But gosh and damn and drat...it's a 'right' so it is therefore our right to be capable of shooting whoever we deem fit.
Well and good.

Gun Control.
IF THERE IS JUST O>>N>>E less gun in the world there is one less gun that 'may' or 'can' be used to kill someone.

Who needs a bloody debate about that?...It's bleeding obvious.

As Homer would say [ever so eloquently]..."Doh"...
Reply #5 from WinCustomize Forums Top
/me runs for cover...hand-grenade thrown...
Reply #6 from WinCustomize Forums Top
okay I actually read all that!
WiseOldMan I think a 40 year old can debate a 10 year old I do it all the time w/ my kids (now 5 & 10) (I always try to listen to their feelings and opinions on stuff first and take it into consideration during our debates)

When I think of debate I think that means speak to each other voicing both sides of the each persons opinion

I on the other hand when debates turn into I'm right and your wrong and you sit there w/ a closed mind and aren't really "listening" to the other person speaking well that's a fake debate... hehe
ppl do that all the time, they already have their conclusions about the subject at hand before the debate has even begun.

But debates are good and healthy sometimes and nothing at all wrong w/ asking for the person your debating to try to back up the subject your debating about Brad.

But I think I'm more like what WiseOldMan said "I like to read what other people think" which is why I read these freakin boards so much!!!!
I only really jump in on the occasional debates I think don't know for sures cuz I never pay "myself" no mind what in the world I'm typing to you ppl! hehe
Reply #7 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Right now I wouldn't debate what time it is. I'm worn out and the sun is out...

But

What I can't stand is the people who debate by proclamation. As in, "There's no evidence of that" "Nobody would support you in that" after you've spent years looking deeply into a subject and finding the facts some blowhard just dismisses everything as though he knows what he's saying having not spent a minute of his time actually trying to learn about the subject.
Reply #8 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Brad,

I think debating you makes most people uncomfortable... . You are an excellent debater, there is no doubt about that. Take your 16 year old trash talker. He just wants to be heard. He doesn't want a 30 something CEO of a company bashing him in the face with more facts than he could ever comprehend. He can never win! Same in the physical world. A 300 lb football player confronts this same kid and you get a similar result.

Why not classify the thread you are jumping into before posting. If it is a passion driven thread, the result will always be the same, trash talking. If it is a logic driven thread I'm sure you will ignite their reasoning. It is near impossible to change peoples opinions when they are so passionate about something, even if they are wrong. Try changing a Democrat into a Republican at a dinner party and see how it turns out!

Final thought. Just don't put attitudes of this sort on the kids. Sure they mught fire you up about Stardock products, but adults are much worse. Just take a glance at the nightly news, the Sunday morning roundtables, or better yet Hardball with Chris Matthews..... The world is full of idiots...
Reply #9 from WinCustomize Forums Top
/me wonders how a debate would be w/ Brad not typing but in person instead of on a msg board?
the odds would be much better... hehe
Reply #10 from WinCustomize Forums Top
The problems I see with many people and the art of debate is:

1. No one taught them how.
2. The self-esteem guru's who say everyones opinion is valid.

The problem with the first is obvious. The problem with the second is that those same gurus do not teach the difference between opinion, preferences, and fact. Everyone has opinions, many of them valid, many of them in polar opposition to the opinions of others. All opinions _are_ valid as long as they can't be contradicted by the facts. Opinions are never facts except that they exist is a fact. The distinction between opinion and fact is often lost in these debates. We debate opinions, we use facts to support our opinions. Preferences, (personal likes/dislikes) OTOH are neither fact nor opinion and are valid only for the person who holds them and are not and never should be the subject of debate.

(Folds up podium and returns to his cave)
Reply #11 from WinCustomize Forums Top
(Folds up podium and returns to his cave)
hehe jcg

well if you go into a Debate w/ strangers w/ an open mind to listen and a goal only to speak your point but "know & realize" in the end your point will not always be accepted then you can walk away fine.

If your only goal is to prove "your" point and "expect" everyone to agree in the end then the ending might be different?
Reply #12 from WinCustomize Forums Top
hah! very good jcg
Reply #13 from WinCustomize Forums Top
well if you have a fact backed up solid and can prove it physically yes there is not much else to debate right?

"most" things debated are not backed up by physical facts and proof (which is why there is a debate in the first place)
Reply #14 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Anyone who feels the need to express an opinion should be ready to defend it and not be insulted when somebody calls them on it. I never take it personally if someone disagres with me, if I did I'd be an emotional basket case. I do get angry when people feel they should attack me instead of my position. That is the height of intellectual laziness and a common tactic on many of these sites. That is the point, I thnk, of what Brad expressed above.

Besides, usually when I debate I am not looking to convince the person with whom I'm debating, that is rare and often impossible. What I am trying to do is convince others who are listening and may not have formed an opinion and also to express the reasoning behind my opinion. If more of us understood why we hold the opinions we hold, we would be less inclined to dismiss their opinions out-of-hand.

People who prize feelings (which a lot of people confuse with opinions, they are similar to preferences) over reasoning should not debate. Not only do they not prize facts, the meat of debate, but they find themselves getting frustrated very quickly when confronted by someone who demands them as the price for accepting the validity of an argument. For example if ones says "I feel terrible about the poor of the world" that is a valid feeling. If however, they follow it up with, "therefore I think rich people should give all their money to the poor" that is a fallacious argument. Many people, however, think it is a perfectly valid argument on the basis that the feeling is valid. That's how fights start.
Reply #15 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Oh, I almost forgot, many times debating some one on a closely held opinion helps me explore my reasons also. A little self inspection never hurts.
Reply #16 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I think the rich people should give all their money to me. I will redistribute it fairly...
Reply #17 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I don't like to debate.

No, actually, I don't like sterile conversations. I love a good debate when both parties are mature enough to understand when they have lost the argument. Imagine a debate with your favorite leader (or father, or boss), and after you've exposed all the flaws of his new project, he concludes saying: "Well, it doesn't matter, cause that's the way it's going to be, period."
Reply #20 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Most debates aren't backed by physical facts. Hence why they are debates.

Pro-choice vs. Pro-life is a typical debate. The better debater is the one who can put together the most compelling case that their perspective is the right one.

It isn't the conclusion that a good debater battles against, it's the assumptions made by the other guy.

Hence, when someone says "Program X" is "buggy". How can you "prove" that it is not? There are lots of variables involved and hence a good debater will try to 1) find out what definitions they are using (what makes something "buggy") and in what context are they saying it is "buggy".

One debate Doreen and I have touched on is a timeless one: "What is success?"

Is success simply the process of achieving a remarkable level of happiness? Can people define success on a person by person basis?

That is why qualifications are needed. For instance, when I said in that custo debate that it is the "slum" of the community, the term "slum" was an calculated word - a qualifier. What is a slum? For most people it is the area of town that not many people live in, few people visit and those that live there are "low class" (another debateable term) and "Crude" (another debateable term too).

On the Stardock forums, there is a debate as to what is the nature of evil. What makes person A "Evil" but person B not evil?

It's those kinds of topics that make the Internet interesting and lively.

BUT..

In some places debating isn't appropriate. If people feel like every single casual statement they make is going to get jumped on, then the forum they're on can feel hostile or unwelcoming and people will leave. That's why I've tried not to be involved in too many debates here. People don't come here to debate so I try not to get involved in them unless it's something I"m passionate about.
Reply #21 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Well, I try to stay away from debates that lead nowhere. Specifically the "Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice" or religious debates or deate with anybody that is only driven by passion or feelings, not by any real reason per say.

Sometimes, I like to debate with those people, just so they understand that other people may think different. Sometimes, I like playing the devils advocate, especially when somebody obviously has an attitude problem, even though I agree with his/her opinion.

But I do enjoy phylosophical discussions such as "What is Evil?"
Reply #22 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I found it very handy when I lived in a small town where the Jehova Witnesses would come around frequently. I invited them inside, made some coffee for them and then had a debate.

hehe - they never came back...
Reply #23 from WinCustomize Forums Top
The Jehova witnesses aren't willing to come to my house anymore.

When they first came over, they thought I was a deeply religious person because my bible has TONS of bookmarks, highlights and the like in it. After a lengthy discussion of Leviticus (read that part sometime) they left and never came back.

Good debates can be historical. Who was "right" in the US civil war? North or South? What are the goals of life? Will humans become immortal and if so, when?

These are the things that get brought up on Stardock's news server all the time in the discussion groups.
Reply #24 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I must agree with Boy of Frog

Debates are great for sharpening the mind and expanding ones realization of this reality we live in. To debate to test a theory or to learn more insight into something is grand, but to debate to only show ones superiority of knowledge within a subject is self defeating and does not allow for mental growth in any direction.

I think the best debates are the ones that close with something learned.

Albert Einstein: "I believe in the brotherhood of man and the uniqueness of the individual. But if you ask me to prove what I believe, I can't. You know them to be true but you could spend a whole lifetime without being able to prove them. The mind can proceed only so far upon what it knows and can prove. There comes a point where the mind takes a higher plane of knowledge, but can never prove how it got there. All great discoveries have involved such a leap."
Reply #25 from WinCustomize Forums Top
IMO debates are nothing more than a somewhat futile exchange of viewpoints (or beliefs). Not much more than idle chit-chat. Why do I say this? Because I believe that while it is always enlightening to see the 'world' as other people see it, it is a rare case when the tenets of an arguement (whether sound or not) sway the beliefs of the opposing view. Too many factors come into play...whether they be social, cultural or otherwise...

No matter how objective one believes their viewpoint to be, some element of belief (or faith, or tradition) always influences that very viewpoint. Religion, for example assumes the element of faith (be it 'blind' or otherwise)...to which there cannot be any convincing rebuttal.

Reardless of the fact that no viewpoint can ever be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt...with metaphysical certainty, that is.

Nonetheless, I think debate is healthy. It [debate] not only gives us a different perspective on certain issues -- however 'bogus' we might think they are, but it allows us to interact with each other...leading to a more 'mature' understanding of who we are and how we fit into our universe.

Just my opinion,
Stefan