digitaljames digitaljames

TGTsoft did it.....

TGTsoft did it.....

They have released the first beta of Style Builder and have pages of links for assloads of themes...I have to admit that its pretty smooth. As far as the hacked .dll file goes, if an uninstall is needed and the hacked file needs restoration, just pop in the XP cd and run "sfc" at the command prompt and voila! Tis a good week for Brad to vacation...maybe he'll miss most of the hoopla and discussion thats gonna ensue on this board for sure....
20,118 views 55 replies
Reply #26 Top
saddening to see DevArt turned into a corporate tool of tgtsoft. the interview is just an iq test in disguise. if you can't detect tgtsoft's bs then you fail the test. bad enough i almost created an account over there. almost.
Reply #27 Top
jayg: simply because we do an interview with a new developer we are now a corporate tool for them? if there is any site that is corporate within our community then you are visiting it _right now_. i guess if we were to do an interview with hoverdesk creator thibaud then we would be his corporate tool as well. what if we did an interview with brad? would be then be stardock's corporate tool?

wow ... you made all the sense in the world. thanks!
Reply #28 Top
one last thing. funny how you say, "saddening to see DevArt turned into a corporate tool of tgtsoft" when you do not even have an account. certainly depicts your lack of care for the site to begin with. why would it end up mattering to you since you do not even bother with deviantART anyhow?
Reply #29 Top
in DA's defense, they didn't exactly pitch easy questions to the TGT guys. The interview hardly seems like the work of a "corporate tool."
Reply #30 Top
Jark, DA did a "Great" job on that interview!
/me licks Jark
Reply #31 Top
/me licks jark also and reaches to lick Doreen...

Jark,

DA did an excellent Job and why don't you interview more people... (including Brad)..
Reply #32 Top
I posted my thoughts on all this on the DA thread....
Reply #33 Top
Listen to TasT, jark.
Not so much a right of reply, but a full-on interview with Joe Public posting the questions in exactly the same way as was done for TGT.

This would show true balance and no bias either way or the other....
Reply #34 Top
no you did not! you posted a novel Jafo! I have to go back on that one tomorrow... hehe
Reply #35 Top
i have offered to interview brad. it is now up to him to make the ultimate decision.
Reply #36 Top
I would say that interviewing people like Jorge, Thibaud, and other developers of the lesser known apps who have been working for years on behalf of the skin community would be better candidates.
Reply #37 Top
Had we not shown the TGTSoft story, where exactly were your average community visitors going to get it? This thread, for example, appears to be the only mention of TGTSoft on this skinning portal. Deskmod is getting back on their feet, and the customize blurb is enough to let people know the product exists.

I'm not sure how we would have been more fair; we didn't ask the questions, our community did. We were just the happy middlemen. Hell we even got the questions teknidermy were trying to get answered from TGT.

This "DA = green devil" attitude is nonsense.
Reply #38 Top
Unless I have missed it, I haven't even seen a section opened at DA for the TGT software. All they did was ask a heap of questions that were given to them by their own members.

It's a bit like shooting the messenger.
Reply #39 Top
Good guf dudes. Who is demonizing da other than jayg's one criticism? I agree DevArt isn't a corp tool. But how many news items for a pretty cheesy little program are there now on there? Several. It does look bad. All you guys hang out in the wrong places. The warez sites love this program.
Reply #40 Top
excuse me Jark but I don't give a damn about your internal politics issues or the soap opera that calls itself the 'skin community'. i just call 'em like I see them. your 'interview' was a thinly disgused advert that contains slams of Stardock's Prez. and countless empty charges against WB. The difference between this site and yours is that this one doesn't pretend to be unbiased. It's run by Stardock....yours claims neutrality and then gushes over a bloody system crack as if they had just done your precious 'community' a favor by ripping M$ off and passing it off as their own invention. way to go fighter for truth and justice. i go to your site to get my hoverdesk themes and that's it. the daily melodrama of your teen angst website gets on my nerves and your turning a blind eye to those hucksters and their pseudo-warez program is just a good highlight of why your site is so populated by teens and not adults. i'm sorry to be the one to break that to you. i don't know you but i do know your site. i am not savaging you, i am savaging your website. the da users posed good questions, da just let them get away with counterfeit answers.
Reply #41 Top
..Moderator hat on..

Ok Jay, I appreciate your support but most of us do look at things as a general customization community. Artistic people squabble more often than most but differences in opinion are not differences in principle usually.

DeviantART has done a great deal for that community. Different websites are tailered for different people. And as our community grows, and it is growing quickly, more and more sites will come into existence. Deskmod is coming back. Heck, even Skinz.org may return at some point. And that's how it needs to be because there are now so many users into what was once our little private club that no single site can contain them all.

I take it you're a software developer, Jay? Because I too just as most of the mainstream skinners and developers feel the slight sense of queaziness about programs that 1) Patch someone else's DLLs without their permission and 2) Use their format without permission. The whole thing brings up memories of the Napster debates on skinz.org. Some people didn't see the big deal. But those of us in the intellectula property business did see it as a big deal. People who create things should have control over those things. Like it or not, Microsoft created a UIS1+ level skinning format for Windows XP. And they decided for their own reasons to put security in it.

If someone else wanted to use it, they could have gotten a license. ICQPlus just licensed the WindowBlinds UIS skin format. That's the proper way of doing things. You get explicit PERMISSION.

How can any site that would support MSSTYLES ever say no to a rip? What's the difference? Is it okay to rip Microsoft's format because they're a big company? OS skins have always been a gray area, but it has been long established that other people's formats are a no no to use without permission just like using other people's skins. But my opinions on this are constantly called into question just because MSSTYLES competes with WindowBlinds's UIS format. That's a strawman perspective though because just about anything that involves customization will compete with something Stardock makes at this point.

And it should be pointed out that of all the software developers in this market, only Stardock hosts skins for other programs - even competitors (we host Dangeruss's Hoverdesk themes for instance). If someone knows of a developer in the community that is LESS competitive with other devleopers in it, let me know.

As I said to Jark earlier, look at how aggressively he defends his site in a MESSAGE BOARD. Imagine how I must have felt to logon and read an interview in the main news section read by tens of thousands of people in which I am personally attacked. Not Stardock but ME, Brad Wardell. And for what? Because I pointed out that Style XP is just a DLL patch? It clearly didn't do very much good because there's still people running around thinking it's a skinning app and now requesting to have a Style XP section (if you're going to have a section, it should be called MSSTYLES since that is what they are).

If the interview was supposed to clear things up, I would say it made things worse. More people than ever think that Style XP is some sort of customization program. It's not. It's a 200K download which includes a skin in it and an installer. Why do users think it's so small? Because it doesn't do anything but patch a DLL.

But I don't think it's fair for you to attack (or "Savage") DeviantART. They don't claim to be a technical site. Clearly a lot of people are not familiar with what this program does. They just see something that gives them basic skinning for free.

Being "paranoid" I looked at the people who criticized WindowBlinds or boosted this progrma. They aren't WB users. None of htem had ever commented on or created a WB skin. None of their screenshots showed WB in use. So from a business perspective, does it matter that the people who previously were happy using either nothing or that font that changes the title bar buttons are planning to use a crack that lets them have different colors of Luna?

Has anyone noticed how many of these people who hate paying for a $20 program already have Windows XP, a $150 upgrade days after release? These are not the types of people who pay for software in the first place. And if skin sites in the community want to cater to the "Warez" crowd, that's certainly their right. The more warez people that leave here and go elsewhere the better.

Reply #42 Top
JayG: First off you cant possibly be more off-base about Dev Art. Since when does interviewing someone constitute being a corporate lackey? If you "dont give a damn about the skin community" then why the hell are you complaining about it? Dev Art and Wincusto are part of the same community your complaining about. They just have different demographics. And furthermore, how do u figure it's jark's fault how his interviewed guest answers questions? I mean that's ridiculous. Think about it a second. No matter how you feel about TGTSoft has nothing to do with reporting the news. News is supposed to be Un-Biased. Am i correct? So how is it jark's fault how his interviewed guest answered?
Reply #44 Top
Why tack? So it can start all over again? Brad's made his point, if people choose not to listen that's their business. He's made the point so even non-coders like myself understand it. I think doing a counter interview would be a bad thing. Personally having looked back on all of this and the debates, it's really up to Microsoft to do something. It's their intellectual property that TGT is messing with. It's really their business. Windowblinds got their certification, so i only see one winner in this debate.
Reply #45 Top
I'm certainly not suggesting a counter interview, or rather an interview with the attitude of a counter interview.

Simply that Brad should take the opportunity to offer the community (or at least the DA community, if you want to look at it that way) the same Q&A opportunities with the same amount of legitimacy. It's simply an idea, and I would think would relieve Brad of the sensation that he has been cornered on this issue without a fair amount of publicity in the matter. But perhaps you're right to suggest that the issue should simply fade.

Something more interesting that may have been brought about from this interview style is whether or not it is a good idea at its core, for any subject. If the general sentiment is that inflammatory questions were leading to inflammatory answers, should the policy then be to disallow general community questions on an issue unless it's in a forum?

If it's not, of course, and solely the answers are the inflammatory issue, then really I again fail to see why DA called to task for publishing verbatim responses to community questions. Blaming the site for interviewee response would be no more realistic than blaming the originator (or even host) of a serious forum thread for every response, mature and immature. In this instance I agree with you, TSF, that it's simply killing the messenger.
Reply #46 Top
Jayg:

If you'd bothered to pay attention, you'd notice that we opened up the debate for people who wanted specific questions about Styles XP answered. If you had any questions, we more than likely would've passed them on to TGTSoft. Many of the questions we asked during the interview were from users, so this "thinly disguised advert" that you mention wasn't really part of deviantART's secret plan to become filthy stinkin' rich. It was designed to inform the community and give them the necessary tool to voice their concerns to TGTSoft. So in other words, please don't gush out about how the interview was an advertisement for Styles XP when you could've easily contributed. As for letting them get away with counterfeit answers, we can't exactly control the content of what another person is saying in the interview.

So what type of questions would you ask given the (missed) opportunity? We asked:
-If Styles XP hacks system .dll's
-Whether it's legal or not
-If TGTSoft would drop out if faced with a lawsuit
-What Microsofts thoughts on Styles XP are
-What their agendas and motives are for creating Styles XP
-If they realised how offensive some of the remarks on their web site were in relation to some of the skins located on this very site

It's hardly all sugar and candy in this interview. Please do your research before spouting wild accusations.
Reply #47 Top
If I may be so bold (my disagreement with Jay's response is on record) but:

The questions were good. But nobody challenged their answers.

Do you know what I thought when I first read the interview before the responses? That TGTSoft was screwed. That they had just eliminated the possibility of having any support from the community.

Why?

Because that very first paragraph where TGTSoft attacked WindowBlinds and completely falsified what their program does (and contradicts these statements later on when they admit it's JUST a patch).

So much confidence I had in the community that they would not stand to be BS'd. Unfortunatley, quite a number of people were taken in.

Somebody should have been there to challenge their answers. And let me again repeat the thing that bothered me personally:

My friends at DeviantArt, and make no mistake, I consider Scott a pretty good friend of mine. I don't consider DA a "competitor" to WC or as a businss associate, you guys are our friends. But my friends there allowed an interview to be posted in which ME specifically was targeted for a personal attack. Me. Brad Wardell. That was unacceptable. I would NEVER have allowed an interview that made a personal attack on an individual up on any site I had any say over. If TGTSoft wanted to say that Stardock is being paranoid that would have been totally different (it would have been incorrect but at least it wasn't personal).

Facts are not subject to opinions either. When they claimed WB not seeing non-MS signed styles is a WindowBlinds bug, somebody sould have challenged them in the interview. How is this OUR bug? Why didn't they write their own skin listing program - WindowBlinds and Styles xP coexist fine, it's just that they didn't bother to write their own skin chooser and they're blaming us for that.

Boy, I really am wordy. Sorry.
Reply #48 Top
Come on, come on, it's just an interview. Also mind the crowd, any attempt to respond in a serious tone, will just backfire.
Reply #49 Top
an even better interview could have been Brad & TGT soft done together but of course that will never happen...
so listen to the Dutch guy!

I really "think" MS could care less at this particular point about TGT soft cuz if anything it "Helps" boost winXP sales, however when MS can control this themselves in the near future and they will "Than" action will be taken against them. hehe

Reply #50 Top
Brad:

The simple answer to your quarrels is that the interview was conducted by email, not live, and contacting the community for "follow ups" would have dragged the whole process out and destroyed the timeliness of the story.

People have openly interpreted the responses, and TGTsoft has apparantly made no pretense of coming in and defending themselves, so the same effect has been acheived.