Who would play Sins in a persistent universe MMO?

It would depend on the payment model but I would seriously consider it.

HELL YES

Free

A universe made by modders, all modders get a free acount good for a limited time depending on the content added and voted by users. Users can play for free with bilboard adds in-game or pay for no adds. Mod teams can join as a corporation and the CEO gives out the free play time based on content added. Rebelions can take place and the CEOs killed or imprisoned (Bann Time).

I put some thought into this a long time ago and called it VirtuVerse

There was a half way attepmt to make the SINS some what persistante.

We were basing the idea of Steel Command from the Mechcommander games. Im sure the topic is burried but around.

I just didnt have enough support to go anywhere though.

We've bought one online game in our life for our kids--that was Runsescape because they charged $5 a month.  My kids played it for six years.

Freelancer was like Sins--you paid for the game and the modding community later kept the list seever and "universes" going.  Unfortunately, Freelancer has some real shortcomings in what's hardcoded and what it can do.

Put in some mysteries like wormholes that go bad and throw you through space, some npc fleets and Sins would be pretty awesome--especially if you could mod your empire from stock abilities and parameters when you started.

I like the modder's universe idea.  That's sort of what Second Life was/is.

I dunno. It would need a few things to get me interested.

• Capital Ships ala a Silent Hunter or Star Trek Bridge Commander type game
• Fighters that feel like SPACE fighters. Doesnt need to be fully newtonian, Jumpgate found an okay middle ground here, but they still didnt feel like SPACE fighters.
• A stupidly intricate economy/manufacturing system. (X games)
• NPC pilots to fill up the universe.
• War. Lots of it.*

*Jumpgate had some pretty cool event driven conflicts, but if you weren't a high enough level to afford a heavy fighter you were dog food. That annoyed me a lot. It always seemed to me that if you're going to have conflict be a thing, it should be more about how you play, not how long you've played. Jumpgate was too focused on the grind. I enjoyed leveling up, dont get me wrong, but I wish it had opened up "options" not "better".

I'm confused; You want Sins to be an mmo pretty much as-is? Or take the Sins mythology and races, and put them into a freelancer-style game? It seems most people think you mean as a freelancer-style game, and to that I say "meh". I might say something different if we had a campaign to bring some story into the game.

If you mean as-is, I would wonder: How? I mean, it would be cool,  don't get me wrong; I just don't see how you could solve some glaring issues, such as what to do when a player logs off, how to support the enormous number of people online at once when people currently have issues, how do you measure a person's 'level' such that a brand new player doesnt get destroyed by an endgame player, or for that matter: what is end game?

Would this be a star trek online? To be honest, unless there is more than just going onto your ship and start battling, I might as well go onto star trek online or Eve no point creating another one.

How about the best of both for FREE

There would have to be some things behind the player's activities to make it work.  Being part of one empire or the other, other menaces and the like.  Ideally a fight for control of the universe by your faction with rewards to those who achieve.

I like the strategic element of Sins so you would need a strategic un iverse to go with it.  There would have to be a purpose.

So one faction pitted against another with a greater menace that sometimes required alliance between all--but one that could never last.

Think of the universe as against chessboard and the players as the pieces.  The kings and queens would be the overarching nemesis.  your world would be one clan--one piece in the game--working independently but cooperatively with the others of your race to build their empire....with room for some divergence.

Just some rough thoughts--I don't think it's going to happen sadly.

Freelancer did a great job of creating an immersive style universe--just lacked functional mechanics.  You knew the factions, you were involved in their story (in the campaign anyway).  Several FL servers continue that.

A great way to start in a Sins mmo would be to do a mission style war or campaign that brought you to your position in the game when done.

I've played Eve and it's an incredible concept but the whole thing is dominated by pointless pvp combat, mega player groups that spend a fortune in game and now own so much they can only be contested by other mega player groups and basically you fly around and build, mine or fight but it really has no purpose.

I think I would start in a Sins mmo by having standings-reputations that geniunely affected what you could do and where you could go.  Kill a million of this group and you are on their most wanted list with a huge bounty.  Cooperate too much with an enemy of your fction and lose standing and rights with them--even become an enemy.  Then seed the galaxy with hidden and unique rewardss and threats. 

Rather than simply leveling up, allow the discovery of artifacts or the salavage of vessels that could never be built--only found.  Keep the technology leveled so that you didn't end up grinding to be "even more advanced".

Give me a million and I'll get it developed and marketed and fleshed out

DarkStar One, despite being mediocre as a whole, had a good base design for this.

Meanwhile, I don't really want to see an MMO. It's not that I don't think it has potential, but currently we have no story and thus no conclusion or even introduction (think Freespace) to what the real enemy is. Personally, unless we get a story that introduces some meaningful traits into the faction names and species (think WarCraft), I would feel that they're simply defined by the most annoying player bearing their name in the game.

So, give me a story and then we'll talk.

Ok...here's some background/devices/story...

The upstart TEC is roaming about seeking economic domination of the galaxy--which is how they gain power as a race.  The Advent are converting people from the dangers of capitalism and the need to join the Unity.  TEC and Advent are enflaming people to join them against the alien menace of the Vasari who in turn are warning everyone to join with the Vasari or they will indeed become a menace.

"Power" for a race means access to refueling planets and markets, better prices and supply.  So the internecine war is always in play--every side trying to expand their influence in the NPC universe where there are a multitude of factions.  No side is poweful enough to just "take out" the npcs...they must be influenced.  NPCs are the people and you have to have their hearst and minds to win.

Seeded throughout the universe are relics that point to locations of ancient alien devices--finding them allows one to eventually gain enough leads to locate the actual technology perhaps still functioning and perhaps even to knowing how to use it.   Who know how long it will function or even what its limits are--you have to discover.

Outside this hub-bub of competition and scheming is your isolated world--having been alone for generations after the ast great galactic conflict, you've finally gotten back on your feet and are ready to try to gather wealth and power and influence to protect your home.  Your service to one of the NPC groups gains you assistance from them.  Basically, as you do them favors, you get a chip that can later be cashed in for aid--the more chips, the greater the aid you can ask for.  NPCs are more inclined to provide humanitatian and defensive aid  so it is easier but they may help you in a campaign if the pay is good. Artifacts and relic clues can also be cashed in for favor.  Once favor is used it is gone.

So you can deal slyly with traditional enemies--even serving as a double agent and greater favor assures you better guarantee of secrecy--you can become a spy or agent in effect.  Or you may resort to piracy and kill those you loot before they can ID you--a life of crime.  Then you can serve the state openly though you will be expected to contribute more greatly. Finally, you can attempt neutrality staying with trade and exploration and barter goods for security or perhaps become a bounty hunting empire--gaining prestige when you destroy the assets of a greatly hated enemy...which allows you to frequently swp alliances.

But another mystery arises.  The Vasari's greatest fear is rumored by them to be coming.  Some say you must build a fleet to stand.  Other's say it's futile and still others say that a deal can be made with the devil himself--if you can discover his secret and find him.  Many say that this ancient nemesis watches man and alienkind and evaluates their usefulness--in essence, one builds a reputation with this ndark mystery without even knowing it--for good or for ill.

There are also rumors of other older alien races long hidden that may be discoverdd and also may be open to your gaining favor with them.  Also, other remnant groups exist who are potential allies or enemies.

Each step in this universe constantly changes your standing with both those known and those not yet seen.  Morality, savy and power all have their appeals and liabilities.  Even the equipment with which you are armed and the ships you operate can affect your perception with others. Can you discover, balance and survive?

That's off the top of my head for a starter.  Freelancer, Eve, Freespace--all had this issue of "what's the purpose" but in each case the purpose of playing is lost because you can just "do anything".  The universe neeeds to have a purpose and then the individual walks their way through it's reality.  The universe has to be as active and dynamic as the players are--and not controlled, only influenced, by them.  there has to be mystery change and surprise within explorable boundaries

One of the less well received Wing Commander series was "Armada" where your ship to ship combat actions tied together with fleet movements in an actual war.  Some of the "personal" of the Wing Commander/Privateer series was lost in making it a more strastegic game--but they didn't really have dynamic mmo's back then.  Freelancer ws the team from Wing Commander who wanted to develop their original "big universe" immersive story but Microsoft said, "Too much time and money" and yanked it away.  It could have been a real first.

I'd allow players to create their own racial mysthos and basic alignments at the start and then change them as they played as they wished--with built in ramifications  to their actions.

The "just play" element that's in Sins now would also allow more simplistic and direct players a place without forcing them coercively into role play.  Basically, they could function just like mercenaries--entertaining offers from players and fighting for the ones they liked and not being to concerned about the rest of the galaxy and its affairs--relying on their patrons for grand strategy while they implemented the tactics.

I know how you feel the X series is "beatifully frustrating" (I see Eve in a similar light).  What appeals to me and sounds like it would appeal to you is the idea that a Malcom Reynolds could actually make it in his Firefly and not have to be James Kirk commanding a Federation fleet or the UberAlliance of Hundreds Who Only PVP to win.

My idea would be to allow the complete novice just as much a chance to stumble on a powerful artifact, discover a new trade commodity or secret or gain favor with a race not known to others--think of the anti-hero in District 9.  In the end, he is a hero and an entire species of more technologically advanced aliens is beholden to him and promises to return to help him--a single, powerless man.

So in my scenario, JoePvP Empire of Twats comes to steamroll your simple trading world and then turns around to see an alien armada has showed from nowhere to defend you because you once helped them at a crucial moment.

That's true sci-fi and that's what is missing from so many games--the sci-fi story and atmosphere.  Eve has been de-scifi'd to simply an expert study of game mechanics and grinding to wealth and power.  And all for no other eason than to, "Kill some more people".  It loses the charm.

And not knowing what you might be up against would actually force players to be more true to life--rather than simply kicking in every door and gunning down anything that moves...though if they try to kill you, kill them right back.

Well, the grander and more expansive you make anything the more time it will take to get anything close to that.

If we were all game programers and what not, sure we could thing about doing a new sandbox style space game.

But, we are not. However we can work with what we have currently and give SINS some persistance and a campaign like feel.

The best way is to do the "Steel command" way. After all this is an RTS, and would give each match/battle a meaning, once you worked out the details. Its possbile to such, we had just started when it ran out of steam. I do blame that on us concentrating on faction creation more than rules and such.

Ive always wanted to get something like that running. It was such a blast in MechCommander.

An epic game idea.

Ironclad has shown its ability to walk a fine line design wise.  I would say that they could actually tread the line between first person space game and grand space sim game. 

Your ships would have to have the major defensive disadvantages of the sims game. 

Capital ships could be multi person ships.  Your carriers would be defenseless except for your fighters/bombers.  A more complex system associated with antimatter than just "it recharges for free".

Ship diversification.  Example: multiple types of lrms that perform the same primary function but then a unique secondary/tertiary function. 

Good ship customization that provides real results and rewards for players.

Create interesting tasks for players on a single ship.

i.e. one person is a pilot, another the gunner.  Give enough depth that both are fun   Great for something like going Co Op with a friend

Much greater detail and expansion of the trade system, All items should be player made.  Setting up a business.  Decent automation of trade ships.

Ship capture options, with Space marine fights in a fist person shooter in the middle of a space fight.  Compartments venting in space throwing you out to your doom (if without a spacesuit )  By the way, the anti boarding measures should favor the defenders substantially to deter boarding as a primary means of attack.  It should be expensive and used against high value targets (capitals, starbases/stations, planets).  Marine progression through these structures would reduce ship fighting efficiency until total control is achieved once the bridge has been taken.  If the bridge is taken first, while the rest of the ship isn't under control the defenders still can prevent the marines from controlling the ship by cutting controls to the bridge and going "manual".  Also secondary command stations could be a possible ship/station upgrade.

Have fun making that work   Cloud computing better get here quick.

amphibious space to ground warfare.  Just...why not.  Ambitious, but its a dream that needs to see light in the industry.  Put other developers to shame!!!!!

Expensive ships, Even more lucrative rewards.  Trade lane control being critical to progression.

All ships should be controllable by a single person.  one person could control a capital, but to fighting effectively with it should require a group of 5 people minimum, performing 5 jobs.  More for repelling boarders (marines!).

Maintain the overall balance of the sins series for the higher strategy level play.

Good fleet controls to make the larger battles seem more "sins like"

Commanders have extensive fleet permissions.

An example of this would be:

A player joins the fleet to participate in an assault.  First person in the group is the commander (can be shifted to another).

The commander jumps the fleet, basic navigation is under control of the commander until he is either determined to be inactive (5 min no complex activity) or battle commences.

Actual designed for game logistics software.

Commander/subcommander kill priorities to be sent to a screen in the players ship.  lets say its a fighter.  His squad is ordered to strike at LRMS.  The player could ignore the target kill commands of the leader, to the benefit or detriment of the fleet . 

Fleets need extensive organization.  Good luck commanders!

Territory based empire balancing.

A single player should be able to accrue a sizeable fleet.  The downside is that this fleet wouldn't have any pilots, so if it faced a fully human crewed fleet of equal size it would most likely get decimated due to the efficiency of player minds over AI brains.  Likewise, a large fleet under the control of a single player should be able to wipe out a small fleet of players.  This would be a delicate balance.

IP recognition/autopunishment software for some accountability.  Only one account per person. 

Welding in game.  example, fly around in "space welding armor" and weld together the hulks that you have destroyed to create pretty pieces of scrap.  then strap an engine to it and see your pile of junk fly through the heavens.  Call it an ego boosting "prize ship" that has bits of many things you've destroyed in the past.  Perhaps this could be the way players make cities in space.  This would give people something else to do in an mmo setting then they have ever done before.

Useful, good parts scavanged from ships.  So many games have horrible scavanging options....it should be worth it to have scavangers tearing hulks apart in the middle of the battle.  scavanging should be one of the most dangerous professions .

Lol, Carbon--note  my first post, "after multi-core threading and the space ponies expansion pack".  It's a dream (like talking about modding the expansion and the features that will be in it and critiquing it before anyone has even seen it) but it is just a question of who will do it first.  The Freelancer designers as Digital Anvil were on to this but Microsoft told them, "You're nuts, it's to expensive...we'll take your great engine and core idea and call it even.".  What's amazing is no one has actually done it yet.  Eve took a great step in that direction but the "science fiction" in the Eve universe was completely destroyed by game code analyst/exploiters and pure pvp groups.  Now Eve is simply a mass number crunching game at it's purest level.

From what I have been able to find, Eve has fallen from the goal of a REAL scifi game due to the core of players who made it succesful in the first place.  Once they were invested, had played a few years and established their empires then they wanted nothing to change.  If you go on Eve and say "immersion" they think you are a role player and boo you off.  Players constantly squabble and fight with the company decryng every change suggested--unless it comes from the "real" player base.  I do see efforts by the company to quietly re-establish the scifi of the game but each effort has been met by a huge active player backlash.

I've also played Freelancer (and Freespace/Homeworld in their day) on moderated and modded servers and what invariably happens is one of two things:  a draconian overlord system/game operator who only wants his own vision played, or, a sycophantic group of elites who only want their version played.  The other direction is a 'role play' server but they have huge issues with maturity as a recurring thing.

I would love to see an open source project turn Celestia into a modifiable, real time game engine and then I'd actually teach myself how to build a universe with it and put it out.

I played a game back in the 70's before many of you were born and before anyone used a computer for entertainment called "Star Master" by Schubel & Son.  It was a PBM (play by mail) game and you designed an alien species from the ground up (think EA's Sppore Creature Creator done on paper), placed it on a chosen planet type and began play in a universe with 500 to 3000 other players.  Turns came once every two weeks and there were a lot of issues (due to the no computer involvement) but it was a brilliant concept that no one has done it since PCs have been out--and now we're talking 30+ years).

Space Civilizations  and Masters of Orion were stabs in that direction but it can be a lot more hands on and player influenced.  Sins would be a great base engine for fleet movement and combat and colonization.    You need the grand  design taken out of the player's hands but let the players influence (not control) design within the grand design.  One day some company will finally get it right.  I have started several businesses in my life and had succes working in companies because I would do something that had been decided "couldn't be done".  Many game companies lack the willingness to do this.  I'll give Eve credit in this department, "can't" isn't in their vocabulary.

So lay out more about your concept Carbon.  How was it done?  I get the general concept but don't know your specifics.  Glad to help work on the idea (I do web design).  As a practical step it's the closest we can get here.

lol, sorry SIN.

I did see that orginally you ment way long term idea, but i forgotten it by the time I posted.

So my ADD aside, Here is the original link to what Im refering too:

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/344133

You can read up what little was done there.

Annatar had some great ideas,

If you dont wanna read too far into that, I understand. I can try to sum up if that whole route peaks your intrest.

It wouldnt really be super hard to do, IMHO. Hardest part would be finalizing how much each system gave your 'resource' wise and how much each ship/structure will cost. Maps wouldnt be to hard, they would require 1 or 2 people to make new ones or modify current maps ingame. Each map will have to be hand made for each battle as each faction spends their resources on extra units for that battle. I have a decent concept on to how to allow said addtional forces to be quickly added to a map and changed.

I do miss SCL days and wish I got to fully particpate in it. lol, guess this is my version of a pipe dream.

I'll go read now.  I think I know where it's going but I'll go study the concept.  Who knows what might be done?  If it's what i think it is, there might be somethung doable there.

All things are possible to him who believes.