An open Comment :
Joe (for short) , Dragonil , Frogboy , Mormegil and all other :
i became aware of skinning a couple of years ago , by accident. since , i became a true fan and supporter. it wasnt until this one guy (Mormegil) put an icon-making guide on his site , and i tried it , that i realized how much time it takes and the talent and devotion you needs. i then learned that you skinners / developer's put out 3-4 hours of free time a day , out of pure desire and for bringing skinning to us. having tried software from Stardock and enjoying it , i then continued to the obviously next level - Buying the Software in order to support those who work their asses of and probably their vacetion time too in order to promote this type of software.
it came natural to me that the peaple who run these sites such as Wincustomize dont make a hugh profit out of it and should be supported especially when the subscription is less then 20$.
putting software out for try is good : you bring your ideas , your talent and art out there for all to see (and yes - for promotion's too. its perfectly honest and welcomed).
those who demand freebee'z - they are the ones that probably never made something of their own and put it outthere for anyone to take.

in germany , the goverment decided to cut unemployment fee's (which stood at 61% of last paycheck and was undefnitely !!! , an early retirement if you want) , there was a big demonstration and one reporter asked the other : why is there no one on the opposing side ?. the otherone said - "are you crazy ??? they cant be here , its 9:00AM , everyone opposing are working !!!".

so to all you skinners/ developers , these demand mail's you get dont represent us all. we , the silent ones that read the blogs and buy products and enjoy and support the sites quietly , we do appreciate your work and do understand. i can see talent where it is and , hey - if i dont think a premium suite is worth the money - I DONT BUY IT. and that's it. after learning how much time and effort it took me to make a louzy folder icon , i can easley understand and sometimes get shocked that a premium suite like "Toon-XP" costs less then 9$.

hope to see a lot more in the future

"Just because you think someone who USES your stuff is as much a customer as someone who pays for your stuff doesn't make you right. You are entitled to your opinion but I don't agree with it. Someone who USES your stuff is a user. But they're not a customer. There is a difference"
Frogboy......WOW do really believe that? I would expect that concept to discourage growth of your customer base. I agree that there is an obvious difference in the level of support or even an obligation to any support with respect to paying customers verses users. However, if I have a bad experience as a user chances are I won't be a customer.

sidenote: I don't consider myself in the group of people you are describing. I am a customer that has never felt the need to make demands here and has been mostly satisfied with the products and services.

Also, with respect to users that make demands (and customers that make respectful requests for that matter). Could they be candidates for a poll? I know there is a poll section on the main page but maybe an expanded poll page where ideas (or demands) can fly or die based on what the majority wishes. Of course even some good ideas might be impracticle and cannot be implemented but it may take some of the heat off of you and share it with the "idea guys".

WOW do really believe that? I would expect that concept to discourage growth of your customer base. I agree that there is an obvious difference in the level of support or even an obligation to any support with respect to paying customers verses users. However, if I have a bad experience as a user chances are I won't be a customer.

Clearly if you don't count users as customers you'll have fewer customers by definition.

People who provide free stuff, by their nature, tend to be pretty open to other people's suggestions in the first place.

So it's not like someone who sends in an email saying  (right way)"I think you should write about the Mars mission in your next blog" are going to be told to piss off.

On the other hand, a person who sends an email (and I've gotten ones like this over the years) (wrong way): "The content of your blog is getting stale. I'm sick of hearing about skinning and politics. Why not write about something interesting like the Mars mission. You need to keep your content fresh if you want to keep your customers (read ME) happy."

That's not a direct quote but that's essentially the kind of thing that I and other writers get.

To use an ObjectDock example there's a difference between:

The right way: "Hi, I really enjoy using ObjectDock. I was wondering if you could add a feature to where I could move the dock free form on the screen?"

The wrong way: "As a long time ObjectDock user I am expressing my disappointment in the lack of progress you've made with it. Especially now that you have this Plus version. Maybe your greed is keeping you from wanting to support your original ObjectDock customers who made ObjectDock popular, but you need to start fixing ObjectDock otherwise I'm going to go back to using YZ Dock who, unlike you, doesn't seem to be driven by money."

As you may suspect, that's almost a direct quote of an email we received about 2 weeks ago.

It's all about attitude.

It's startling to see how many people seem to agree with the "customer is always right" policy. And even more when trying to define someone who doesn't exchange anything, in this case money, as a customer.

I don't see why a company should have to go by the "that's how it works" credo. A company that is worthwile is a company that has a vision, that provides something to people and permits it's creators/sustainers to accomplish themselves in the process.

Businesses of the like of McDonalds are the epitome of bad business. Don't look at the profits, look at the social impact. Indecent salaries. Workers who don't give a damn about the company they work for or what they offer. Owners who are nothing more than distant shareholders who really don't give a rat's ass about making food for people, just how they can make the most profit out of it. Customers who have no respect because they're untouchable. And then it trickles down to users thinking they are customers.

To hell with that outdated model, it doesn't do any good to anyone, and you don't have to follow it to be successful. And talking about it here is very appropriate, might make people rethink about their relation, behavior and impact on businesses.

For the case of Steven's blog, or anything free, and it just gets even more outrageous.

I totally agree.  Furthermore, from experience, I have found a weird fact that I cannot explain: the people who pay the least (or not at all) are often the most demanding ones.  I build web sites for a living. Have been for 9 years. Once in a while I given freebies, either to friends, acquientances, family, friends of friends, friends of family members, etc. I've always given them a quality product, it's not like I half-ass a job when I do it for free.  But much to my surprise, those freebies are always the ones who are giving me the most problems, it's never right or good enough. After years of experience, I have finally decided to not give any freebies anymore. Not to friends, not to family, not to anyone. Well, with a few exceptions when I know the other person understands that it's a favour I'm doing not an obligation.
I recently went to an event and they were giving away hotdogs for free. I wonder how they would have reacted if I would have said "I hate hogdogs, give me a hamburger!". Actually, the hotdogs were even a little burnt, but I don't think anybody even dared commenting on that. Come on, it's free. Take it or leave it.

Never do jobs with family and friends!!!
I have asked several skinners about custom builded SysMetrix and also there own IconPackager and you know what!? Not once am I been told, NO!
Simply because I comment there work, tell them that I find it great(which I do) and follow the line that Froggy lay down! If my english was better I could had wrote the same eccept that with the multi-million dollar business.
So ask nice instead of demand, no matter if you are user or customer.

Frogboy,
In your "wrong way" example I would have to totally agree with your sentiments. There is nothing constructive there, nor would you be inclined to give it a second thought based on it's malicious nature. Thats one for the delete key.

I was thinking more along the lines of a "user" that was becoming somewhat annoying with a multitude of questions to issues that he/she could easily resolve if the documentation was even skimmed.
Some people need to be spoon fed to get them onboard.

bottomline - I see your point.

I think the problem stems from a common misuse of "Customer."
Customer is being equated with Patronage or User

..Customer
1 : a person or business that purchases a commodity or service
..Patronage
1. Special countenance or support favor, encouragement, or aid, afforded to a person or a work as, the patronage of letters patronage given to an author.
2. Business custom.
..User
1. One who uses
2. (Law) Enjoyment of property use

Now with those definitions adhered to Brad has a point. No matter what you want to say about the practices, malparactices or models He chooses to employee, He is correct. People that get and use ObjectDock for Free, are not Customers. They are using a Product at the Patronage of StarDock. StarDock encourages this at the possibility of enlarging its' Customer Base, by converting their Patrons into Customers, via incentives touted in the "Plus" Version of its' Products. If the User so chooses they might purchase the product and then "feel" they have the right for imput. Now Imput is an important thing to get from your Customers, and the Comapany that does not listen to that Imput is doomed to fail. Let's all be real for just a minute, and face facts. Wincustomize is a business. JoeUser is a business. StarDock is a business. People do not open Business's to lose money. Not for long anyways.
Brad made a home for the Skinz.org Crowd, creating WinCustomize and that was great but he also converted a disolute crowd into a solidified market, community and developer base. Alot of folks are new, here and were not around during those days, so they do not understand how close to homeless we all were. (So to speak.) Now I usually try to keep my mouth shut, when I get free things as ( I DO) know my place in that respect. Never look a gift horse in the mouth, is what I was taught. The one thing I do have to say in the favour of the ObjectDock (and any free product) Users is they also in turn provide something. They provide feed back as to features, opsys problems, bug issues. They create content of which StarDock and Wincustomize, and the actual End User (Customer) partake. This is their Value, if folks want to discount that, then that is thier loss, but it is of a value none the less. The mistake being made is that it is and was not stated strongly enough that the Free Products, when used entitles the User No Priveledges whatsoever. Give someone and inch and they will take a mile. That being said, and this Conversation goingalong the path that it is following. It must now be assumed, that the Paying Customers (folks that either have a Subscription to the Object desktop, Wincustomize, WinCust Browser, Sanctioned Suite Package, or other Product produced by StarDock or its' Subsidieries), has the right to voice an opinion.
Now this does not gaurentee them the right to be listened to, nor does it imply that Brad or anyone actually gives a hoot. But it does delineate the Wheat from the Chaff, and defines what this whole thing actually is about.
As a Payed in full Subscriber to the Object Desktop, I have voiced my opinion as to the ObjectDock Plus not being included in the Object Desktop. I also feel that Desktop X Pro, is a slight to the Customer. I accept that Objectdock is not a part of the ObjectDesktop, and was not Developed as such, but DesktopX is in the ObjectDesktop so it's Pro version and any subsequent version should be also included. I paid for that and upgrades for a year, "Pro" sounds like an upgrade to me.

The following defines my Logic, just so it is not assumed I pulled my beliefs from thin air.
https://www.stardock.net/media/odntwhitepaper.html

(this part is right above the Component Manager Description, and is the Crux of my beliefs, as it is one of the reasons I choose to purchase a Suscription. Also of note that since it is tauted, that Objectdock is not included into the Desktop Subscription, that belies the fact of its' exclusion, therefore doesn't the following ensure the inclusion of all DesktopX development and features as to part of a Customers Subscription?)

Bear in mind, all of this is currently for $49.95. And users also get everything we develop or update for it for an additional year via their ObjectDesktop.net subscription. At the end of the year, users can continue to receive new features and updates for $34.95 for each additional year.
Advantages of ObjectDesktop.NET

When a user purchases Object Desktop they also get a one year subscription to ObjectDesktkop.net (ODNT). One might say that Object Desktop is always a work in progress because the features of it are constantly improving and increasing on a day to day basis. As Windows gets new features and new abilities, Object Desktop advances to support those features.

It is unfortunate that things have come to the point that it has, but alas here we are.

Now I as a Paying Subscriber have said my piece. Thank you for the time and space made available to do so. Don't mean to piss on anyones' shoes, just stating MY points, as a paying Customer and showing that not everyone that has been here for a long time, is subservient or cowtowed, or afraid to speak thier piece.

Cygnus, the problem with the DesktopX Pro argument is that at that point, we would then have to charge $499 for Object Desktop rather than $49.95. 

I would say it is a better scenario to have Object Desktop be $49.95 and include the features of DesktopX that apply to 99% of the user base than to have to increase it to $500 so that they can have access to features few of them would make use of.

Getting to the user vs. customer thing: It is important to (again) stress that I (and I imagine most others) agree that anyone has the right to voice their opinion. But there is a difference between giving feedback and making demands. See other examples in this thread to see what I'm getting at.

I have read this entire thread and also the JoeUser Blog. I have run serveral Businesses' for different People, and Undersstand where you are coming from. The Customer is not always right, but the Customer must never know that you know that, (you being the Producer of goods.) The job of the Producer is to educate the Consumer, would be Customer and the User. when there is an issue that the User / Customer is wrong, a Good Producer/ Business Person would bring the User/ Consumer around to understanding thier error with the User/ Consumer believing that they came to the Rightfull Conclusion themselves. Like I said, the distinctions is lost on those that percieve themselves as Customers, owing to a misguided understanding of the word itself. This dilution of the understanding of "Customer" has been compounded by media, misuse from lack of education and general laziness of mind. Customer has become synonomous with consumer as consumer has become with User, or so the average person would have us believe. Like I stated in one of the Forum articles, (the almost gun issue), when it says .com on the end ..there is no such thing as a right to voice an opinion. This belief is very arrogant of us Americans when it comes to the Free Speech Issue anyways. Not everyone has that ability, and those that do not have it are probably more than likely to show restraint in issues at hand. Alot of the Issues that arise come from arrogance and ignorance (IMHO.) Where one is the other is not far behind.
We all know that is a person really wants to use a particular software product, it is not all that hard for them to obtain, albeit the version they obtain will be bootleg, and they will be flirting with the issue of copyright infringment. That is a "to each his own" problem in and of itself. Users of Bootleg software fall into the same catagory as the freebies, and have no rights to representation also. I try to look at both sides of the issue. Not saying that the "Freebies" have no Value, like I stated previously they do provide somethings, the same as legitimate Customers. Content Developed by the Users of the free Version have a significant Value, it is the Stock and Trade of Wincustomize. But that is another conversation, for another time.

I understand also StarDock wanting to differentiate the levels between DesktopX Versons, but that is a bill of goods not sellable to me. The Website clearly states a given fact and irregardless of the monetary fact you cliam, The Pro version is a Version of DesktopX, developed during a Subscribers time period, and it is an upgrade to the Version included in the Object Desktop.
I hate for StarDock to lose revenues, so I think the Whitepaper site should be changed, posthaste, and any Subscribers (Currently)that want the DesktopX Pro should be allowed to have it, with the proviso that it must remain for NonCommercial use. Any New Subscriptions should or could be of a dual Nature.
Stardock ObjectDesktop Standard, ObjectDesktop Pro and Objectdesktop Developers Edition. The latter would be privy to the DesktopX Pro package, and any other Dev Items that you come up with, or decide to release to the population. I understand you do not want to dilute the ObjectDesktop brand to much, three levels does not seem to diluted.

In all realities and to be honest about the deal, I do not care as it stands, in as much as I want the DesktopX Plus myself. Mainly because It has become a prize to me, and everyone wants the brass ring. One of the things I pointed out to the Wife when I purchased the OD, was the very statements made in the WhitePaper. I am sorry that late in the Game you want to change the rules.
It's your product do with it as you will. I have waited for this opportunity to speak on this issue as I knew it would allow itself to be discussed eventualy, after this you will hear no more from me. Also of a side note, I sent you an email about a week ago, and have not recieved a reply. I understand if you do not want to reply, and that you must receive alot of unsolicited emails, and are busy... Just wanted to check with you though.

From the ODNT WhitePapers....

"Object Desktop: A complete desktop enhancement suite designed to allow users to completely transform their Windows desktop environment to suit their requirements."

Cygnus.....by not having DX Pro are you unable to do this? The software included in the subscription fully completes this task. It is designed to transform your desktop, not develop software for others. Asking for a $499 piece of software that basically is design to build applications for distribution vs. just enhancing your desktop, which the regular DX does, is just absurd. I don't think anyone is changing the rules, nothing was taken away from ODNT and the price of ODNT hasn't gone up either.

First off, I do want to apologize for coopting Brads thread, but as I thought this was a good place to add my 2 cents, I did.

OK, I guess I am not making myself understood properly. Also before we resort to name calling and defining ones beliefs as absurd. I will make it understood in PLAIN English. I am a Greedy Customer, yes, greed is good. Without Greed there would be no Pockets, also without Greed there would be no incentive to excel, design, innovate or anything of that sort.I am also a logical Customer, and willing to cede the point that OD Plus is of an inordinate value, a real gem if you will. I am not here to define my "Not Having DX Pro." I am making my case as to why I should have it, as well as hoping to help rectify any situation that could arise in the future by StarDock being vague in its' ObjectDesktop Subscription description.

What part of this is not clear?

And users also get **everything we develop or update** for it for an additional year via their ObjectDesktop.net subscription. At the end of the year, users can continue to receive new features and updates for $34.95 for each additional year.

"Everything we Develop" is the Key Here. As DexktopX is and was Developed for the ObjectDesktop, is is logical to construe its' inclusion. I stated earlier that as ObjectDock was not a part of the ObjectDesktop, I was in error when I felt it was not included via the SDCentral application. Cedeing this point does not negate the other point about DesktopX, it defines the point exactly.
Being told that you cannot have one because it was never meant to be included, and then being told that you cannot have the other because even though it is included (it's parent ie..also any derivatives) it is too expensive, is illogical, and a false assumtion. by trying to deflect the issue in pointing out my not having, and wanting this application is also a factor is also illogical and misleading.
I am not asking for a definition of what is felt to be the completion of a Subscriptions task. I am asking for software that was mentioned as being included in my Subscription. I am further pointing out that there is a way to remedy the Situation and similar situations in the future. What does it cost Brad? Right now, nothing. I mean he doesn't loose sales on Software I never bought. He has mentioned time and again the boondoggles that StarDock has been in and lost money too. He can always say"No", and then deal with that as it arises. tell me I am Wrong," I think not Sir." We can respectfully disagree, but a black and white, plain English Description of the ObjectDesktop does not support any suppositions you feel to impose upon my current belief that I am right.

On your final point.I appluad StarDock for not raising the price of OD. i also applaud the Up and Coming right click program. Might be neat but I will hold judgement as I rely heavily on my original contect menu for zipping, queing media, and customized "Send to" Menus'. So how that functions is a big curiosity to me. I wonder is it going to be another piece of the OD that I have no Need for. I purchased OD for Windowblinds, DesktopX, and Iconpackager mainly.

What it comes down to is that you can talk till you are blue in the face, and you will not convince me that something stated on Stardocks Websites, in plain english is wrong, and convolutely that I am wrong.

Once again brad, I am sorry to continue, but will not defer my opinion on this one bit. I agree with the other statements as to Users not having a weighted, voice when it comes to matters concerning Paying Customers.

Cygnus, good stuff.  But we disagree at an axiom level: It's not that I don't think the customer is always right or whatever, it is that unless money has exchanged hands, they're not customers to begin with (to be right or wrong).

I agree that it is up to us all to try to educate consumers on these differences - which is part of the purpose of this thread.  The dot-com era mistakenly gave consumers the mistaken belief that they, by merely using a product, good or service, are entitled to the same rights as customers. They're not. Not by a long shot.  The dot-coms made the mistake of thinking that all consumers were customers and we saw where they led to.

As for Object Desktop, users get all versions of DesktopX.  DesktopX Professional is not the same as DesktopX. They are seperate products. We don't expect all users to agree with that but given that we sell DesktopX Pro for $499 and the entirety of Object Desktop at 1/10th the price I think we can rely on users to make a common sense conclusion.

Incidentally, the white paper you refer to is from 2002. The current one, linked from the Object Desktop page can be found here: https://www.stardock.com/products/odnt/odnt-info.asp

BTW, Cygnus, the system lists you as a level 2 user.  You should connect your WC account to your customer account so that you can get more benefits on WC.

You highlight the wrong part of the sentence:
And users also get **everything we develop or update** for it for an additional year via their ObjectDesktop.net subscription. At the end of the year, users can continue to receive new features and updates for $34.95 for each additional year.

You should highlight the entirety: everything we develop or update for it (it being Object Desktop). 

When a user purchase Object Desktop, they get everything already available on Object Desktop plus everything we develop for Object Desktop for an additional year.  At no time did we ever imply that we would start including $500 products into the $50 product. I think most users "get this".

When someone purchases Object Desktop, they get DesktopX. But we never implied they would get DesktopX Pro. And DesktopX Pro, as others have pointed out, is designed to create applications.  Object Desktop is not designed to be a software development product. It is a desktop environment (and those specific words are used all over the place).

I agree that what we say on the website is very easy to understand. But that doesn't seem to stop some percentage of people from misreading it.  I am not sure how one can possibly reasonably parse that "everything we develop for it" and "everything we develop" are the same things.  I mean heck, while you're at it, why not trim out the first part and just say "everything" and complain that we aren't handing over property and gold and jewels!  

In short, I think our meaning is pretty clear.  When you buy Object Desktop you get everything that's already available plus anything we add to it while you're subscribing.  Last year that meant things like IconDeveloper and Keyboard LaunchPad (along with updates to most everything).  This year it means upgrades to key components, Theme Manager, Stardock Central, Right-Click, WebExplorer, and more.

You don't have to agree with our point of view.  But ultimately we don't have to agree.

Okidokie, you might want to remove the page that i mentioned before then, as I found that page and was linked to it directly from StarDock proper.
Here is the path I took.
(www.stardock.com,) click support
go here (www.stardock.com/support/support_faq.asp?product=37)
click right hand column Product info button, go here
(https://www.stardock.net/media/odntwhitepaper)
pretty direct route if ya ask me.

Hope this doesn't get broken or mangled by filter.

Now with all this said...... Guess I'm not getting any goodies Huh?

Also to be clear I am of anagreement that unless $$$ changes hand, a User is not considered a Customer. But they are a potential Capital Resource, and a hopefully renewable resource, and thier treatment prior to and post Consummation, is the crux of the issues at hand. One directly affects the other. The McDonalds analogy does not hold water as it is an apples and oranges analogy. The Only guide a Business man has in these type of situations, is the Moral Compass within themselves. I will give you this, Brad seems to take the Community his Customers and Non Customers very well, and also certain amount of perserverece, Such is to be expected is a Company that has survived the Great Fiasco of the 90's and 2000's.

Well, if and when I get rich, or fall into some $$$ I will tread water and make do with plain old OBDT, since I am not able to wrangle a copy by being suave. I was going to say loquatious, but I figured working loquatious into a conversation was way, over the top.

Damn Filter!

I thought I was tied like that, and wondered why I kept being just a Citizen, Oh! Well..i'll sort it out. I guess my prob is I predate DesktopX anyways. I remember Windowblinds in the pre 1.xx Days and I was using EFX, from the skinz.org guys.

and you're right we can respectfully agree to disagree.

Cygnus, one thing I'm still not clear on - have you previously purchased Object Desktop or the other Stardock products?

Yes, I am attempting to Cross link right this moment. [email protected] This is my Second Subscription as a matter of fact.

I have been around for a pretty long time, as a matter of fact. I remember when CursorX was a baby. Shoggot Modded Skinz.org and Bashed folks' Heads. Was involved in Heavy Equipment Suite and Did the CursorX theme for that. Did some small stuff for DesktopX, when it was a baby. Unfortunately I never backed that stuff up and only posted to Skinz.org at the time. I only did one thing for here that I can remember and it was pretty raw.

My one claim to fame (before I got married and lost alot ..alot of free time.)
"Meet Alberto Riccio, Desktop X Creator
by Madice

Alberto Riccio is a student and a Stardock programmer. He also owns a small company called RiccioSoft. "

http://www.teknidermy.com/issue/3/iviewalberto.html
Teknidermy Magazine

Alberto: Yes. It is quite irritating, but I think that non-english users are almost used to it.

Tek: Somehow skinners tend to design large cursors (CygnusXII and Buzz "The Big Cursor King" Hog come to mind). Why is that?

Alberto: Heh... Maybe that is just for fun or maybe they have a really high screen resolution.

I don't mind purchasing the programs that I use EVERYDAY on my pc...How would I feel if I came home from work every week and didn't get a paycheck...Yet people demanded all my time and effort be put to good use while I am there...well I don't think too many of us would be happy at all. I LOVE THIS SITE and I do appreciate all the hard work and time that ALL of the authors and creators here put into it just for my pc to be beautful and functional the way I CHOOSE. Thank you thank you thank you. There are lots of us out here that STILL care!

Heh, users, potential customers, customers, ex-customers, bah, there couldn't possibly be a relation there! I think the topic at hand, that providers of a free product or service don't like getting demands from a few people who don't have anything constructive to say is blinding to legitimate input from those that do pay or could potentially pay for products and services.

A more recent example of this is experience is the release of AlienGUIse. Although it was released at 'no cost', the developer thought it was some how unfair of me to mention my dissatisfaction on how it was released and some problems I had associated with it. The initial response I received was very corse, but through private channels, as I explained my exact points and the emotion level came down, I'm certain the essence of my complaints were logical and accurate and good came out of it.

Additionally, I don't think anyone, with any sense at all would agree that harassing, abusive, and brash comments are constructive. Those of course should never be given in the first place, though, I can understand how frustration can allow those feelinsg to be conveyed (on both sides of the coin). However, comments in general, even those that don't offer praise, can be learned from, rather than dismissed completely (no matter who they come from).

Just because one has complaints, doesn't necessarily mean they aren't a customer (good customer even, if you want to measure it by how much they spent or how often they shop at your store). There was a comment some ways up there about most negative comments coming from those that aren't even paying customers. That may be true, I wouldn't know, sounds like an opinion to me, but Cygnus makes the point that I manged to dance around: Users ARE your potential customers, and quite arguably, your most valuable resource. Sure, returning customers (through your subscription based services), are good for business, but hell, isolating potential customers doesn't sound good for business. And to let it be known, I'm not posting this to keep the debate going, I wanted to discuss this with you privately, but this is a public matter that I feel needs to be addressed.

Just as each of us have freely expressed ourselves in this particular board and multiple viewpoints have been entertained, the same should hold true when the topic is a product or service provided. I fully understand that my viewpoint isn't widely shared, here atleast, but I think with a less skeptical, less condescending analysis, good can come out of it, if not the process at least. Also, I hope Brad, Jeff, and everyone knows, that I support the community (and have for years), which is why I'm so vocal on these matters.

Cheers! Anyone that wants to continue this with me in private, feel free to contact me: [email protected]

Attila, I only wish there were more people like you who are able to intelligently articulate an opposing point of view.

And one day, with a skin sample, I'll have an army of Attilas. Whohaha.

Heh, as ODD as it may sound, I'm generally the opposing voice no matter where I go. It's a gift and a curse.