Why would you need to put the lab on the roid?  Just send a colony frigate to take the roid, and send your capital ship to take the nearest ice/volcanic.  It won't be more than 30-second delay to put up your third civic lab, and then you just need to demolish your capital shipyard and you have a 3-jump trade route with no investment in logistics.  Heck, if you can do it, add a few disciples to mix to speed things up or even clear a third planet simultaneously. 

What I'm arguing is that you can get better returns by putting that money into disciples to quickly colonize more planets than you would if you put that money into trade ports.  The trade ports come immediately afterwards in my version, but I honestly think if you can spend the money elsewhere, it's probably a better investment this early in the game.

That's what I meant when I said initial fleet (get some scouts and fill your fleet points with disciples. Spamming scouts is good too since they are best against LRMs and Siege and they are cheaper - only ships you really need to kill before moving out to next planet. You can kill rest with 1 or 2 turret).

Your scenario is good but it will probably take longer to clear that extra planet since they are better defended. Another thing if you go and colonize that extra planet (different thing if you got 2 roids 1 jump away) you are spending on planet upgrades to break even and not loose money on that extra planet. In this case i could see even bigger benefit from extra trade port on HW.

If you have progen then with that extra trade port perhaps you can buy all upgrades (even logistic slots) at lover price before you are forced to upgrade next planet to break even with planet income. Benefits start to accumulate.  Then you can start building trade line and in case your income is faster than your expansion spam trade ports since you got upgrades done and at cheaper price.    

True, a good mix is a good idea.  I personally bring out disciples to clean up flaks, and they're good enough against siege frigates.  If there are LRF, though, scouts are definitely worth the investment. 

I presumed the turret trick was implied, as the only people left talking here appear to be multiplayer veterans.  I'd be shocked if any of us didn't know that trick by now.

Just take out the siege frigates and colonize.  Planetary militia doesn't attack buildings and construction frigates while your military units are present, so just start building up while you clean up the militia. 

Presuming a 2-rock planet (worst-case scenario), it costs me 1500 credits, 325 metal, and 200 crystal to colonize and build those two extractors (presuming no Akkan or Progen bonus).  This is about the same as the 1500 credits, 200 metal, 300 crystal to build two trade ports. 

On normal game speed (fast and fastest just increase these numbers by a scalar) an extractor earns 0.4 resource per second.  Presuming 90% loyalty, that's 0.36 per second.  That trade port without trade route grants 1 credit per second.  Even without counting tax income from the planet, we're comparing 0.72 resources per second against 2 credits per second, which greatly favours the extractors.  Bottom line is that even a 2-rock planet is more profitable than two trade ports without trade route, before we even consider the logistics and tax income benefits the planet offers.  Three rock and four rock planets are just out of the ballpark by comparison.

So really, you get your first trade ports up earlier, but because I colonized faster I get my trade route operational earlier, and the planet itself is just as profitable as those early trade ports anyways.  So yes, I do think that fast colonization is the better way to spend your starting cash than two trade ports without route.

I have tested setting up an early trade network with Advent, and I've never found it beneficial to rush trade...

With your HW and an asteroid, you have 5 logistic slots without any upgrades...one of those is a frigate factory (HW) which leaves 4...now if you are forced to colonize an Ice/Volcanic before you can hit another asteroid or poorly defended terran/desert, then you need at least 2 civilian labs...that leaves only 2 more slots...if you go for early trade, thats a third civilian lab, leaving you only one open slot, meaning that with only two planets, you are going to have to upgrade logistics on at least one of them to have a trade route at all...

Now, lets say you get an Ice/Volcanic before you do trade...that is 4 (HW) + 2 (I/V) + 1 (roid) = 7 logistic slots before any upgrades are needed...1 slot on the HW is a factory...to allow trade on all three worlds before logistic upgrades, you'd have two civilian labs on the HW, then you'd put the third on the Ice/Volcanic...this would give you exactly one open slot on all three planets before upgrades...the problem with this is the time delay...if you build that 3rd lab on the Ice/Volcanic before you build resource asteroids, you've lost some valuable resources; build the lab after the extractors, and by now I'd say you've pretty much defeated the purpose of early trade...in addition, you have absolutely no room for military labs AND you can't start researching trade until after you've colonized the Ice/Volcanic...

Three civilian labs + civilian infrastructure on Ice/volcanic + extractors + trade research + 3 trade ports = LOTS of investment = NO military...

I'd have to agree with Darvin...your income per second with an early trade route might be comparable to having an extra planet, but your investment was a lot bigger, and there is no way you could get early trade yet have enough disciples to expand quickly...even as an eco player with no fear of being rushed (and therefore little need for early military labs) you'd be better off spending your resources in upgrading the terran population limit or building more disciples to colonize on two fronts...

If you are advent and in an eco position, you are far better off setting up culture early...all you need is one culture center on your HW, and at least the next two planets you colonize will benefit from it...culture adds 10% bonus on resources AND credits on the HW, and over 10% on all neighboring worlds...unlike trade which requires many facilities and a lvl 3 technology, culture requires only one facility and is only a lvl2 technology...

Greg30007, I do agree with you that economic pursuits are sometimes better early on if your only expansion option is a heavily defended planet....but I'd go with culture and terran population limit technologies before I'd go for trade...and even without a progenitor, its not too difficult to colonize a heavily defended planet...building turrets is good, but I'd assume if you didn't build a Progenitor then you probably built a Halcyon...which means you can snipe out the krosovs with fighters and move your fleet to the opposite side of the gravity well (scouts are great for this) while your colony ship comes in behind...there is a chance (if you're sloppy) that you'll lose the colony ship after the planet is colonized, and if you do retreat the colony ship of course then your antimatter will be a limiting factor on expansion, but if its a desert or terran world, getting that population as early as possible is going to help your credit income in the long run much better than two trade ports on your HW...

Simply not true!  Yeah, you might get trade earlier, but so what - when there are better things to invest in!  How can tradeports that take "15 minutes" to pay for themselves be better than the first terran population upgrade that pays for itself in less than 10 minutes?  Just watch the replay for proof.  Me and Auqia have better total income throughout the duration, than you and your immediate 2 tradeports (see third chart down).  Better at 5 mins, better at 10, I start feeding at 11 min, you have to fleet up at 12, better at 15 minutes, 20....  And I don't even get tradeports until about 24 minutes in.  Then there's no comparison.

And what was your comment at the start of the replay:  "they don't seem to learn"?  

by 24 minutes into the game i would have a income of atleast 60 maybe higher. also i did say u should get a 2nd expansion fleet, why dont you guys read the post before you start shooting holes in it. also i dont get just trade ports i get as many research as i can while still spamming trade. believe it or not u can get terran upgrades and trade ports fast, even as advent.

I watched SageWon's replay until about 40 mins in when Warfleet dropped, which seemed effectively the end of the game.  This is why I have so little time for 5s, even if you magically balance the teams with an equal skill level on both sides, which is infrequent, the wrong drop turns it into a walkover.

One team is DaKnife-Vasari, NME-Vasari, Auqia-Vasari, JonnyC321-Vasari and jammie85- TEC.  NME has the only eco slot, jammie85 is isolated, Auqia and Jonny have CCBoom between them, who is roided.

Warfleets team is Warfleet-TEC, KFear-TEC CCBoom-Advent, Roujheh-TEC, MR G-Vasari.  Theres no eco slot.  KFear has Jonny to one flank, Roujheh and Warfleet have jammie sandwiched.  MR G faces off against DaKnife.

The first fights are over the isolated players, CCBoom and jammie.  jammie has easily the better position with a dead-end terran off his homeworld and a volcanic separating him from Warfleet's roid.  CCBoom is in trouble as he can be choked by a volcanic right next to his home and Jonny can take the roid that he doesn't have a lane to.

CCBoom fights off Auqia who is being fed by NME, and takes a roid from him.  Jonny sends his fleet in to fight him back, leaving his home open to KFear.  KFear has two roids next to his home and another that Jonny has left in his rush to help Auqia- this last roid is right next to Jonny's home.  However KFear wastes the opportunity.  His biggest mistake is failing to take out Jonny's only factory- though he has bombers he sets them on the kanraks.  Then, having learned the hard way that his Sova wont make it out of the grav well from a planet bombing position, he contrives to lose a second Sova in the exact same manner and proceeds to withdraw and whine about how he shouldn't have attacked in the first place.  So CCBoom is sealed into his home.

WarFleet and Roujheh have a harder task but don't make a great job of it.  Warfleet loses his first cap leaving only one cap bombing the home- and Roujheh has left jammie's roid, and jammie still has the other terran, though Warfleet does prevent him from starbasing it.  However if you only have one cap perhaps you might want to take the other planets first, time is so important in the early stages.

Best player in the game for me was MR G, without any kind of feed he took the fight to DaKnife and drove him back.  NME had a huge income on 40 mins but was right next to DaKnife and would have been threatened and forced to fleet very shortly.  If you just concentrate on pure credit income, with an unbroken string of deserts roids and terrans then 40 mins is enough time to get a good eco.  However NME and DaKnife had left about six well-stocked neutrals in that area to MR G, which is one reason why he was able to push DaKnife back.  An eco spot who doesn't take the neutrals...???

If the point is to compare incomes, then Auqia got feed so we can rule him out.  Warfleet had a far poorer start, with volcanics around him compared to NME's long chain of deserts, terrans and roids.  Warfleet also had to try to take out jammie.  Yet it wasn't until 20-25 mins into the game that NME began to have clearly the stronger economy.  I'm undecided about Warfleet's strategy, I've always considered that Darvin hasn't enough time for early trade.  However it seems situational rather than prescriptive.  I wouldn't have gone for early trade here, when it was important to take jammie out.   I got the sense that both NME and Warfleet were watching how vast their income levels were, as well as the game.

Capital choices were all colony or carriers.  Shame to see the lone Advent roided and surrounded.  The skill level involved in Scramble Bombers autocast combined with Kanraks is just amazing- imagine playing 5s against almost an entire team of Vasari, the amazingness would be awesome.  I'll give it a miss. 

That game could have been five one versus one games.  If Warfeet, NME, Auqia and MR G played a tournament on a standard balanced map we might get to determine who was right.  However, I doubt that 5s will ever produce that sort of decision, there's always too many factors involved.

Watched the replay...DesConnor gave a pretty good summary, not much else to say...

I will agree with DesConnor though, Warfleet definitely should have stopped going eco and invested in ships to take Jammie out fast...

In my opinion, if Warfleet and Roujheh had built fleet over eco and rushed Jammie faster and harder, they could have split the two terran worlds and went back to playing eco the rest of the game while they sent the remnants of their fleets to the front lines...

Honestly, I think it was a mistake to feed CCBoom at all...he put up a good fight but there was no way he was going to last...those resources would have been better invested in taking out Jammie faster OR feeding Kfear so he could hit Johnny harder in the back while Johnny was hitting CCBoom...

After a few minutes with scouting, I think Warfleet and Roujheh should have realized the importance of taking out Jammie faster (2 terran worlds???)...time was of the essence, as CCBoom was a lost cause, and Warfleet's priority should have been wiping out Jammie before CCBoom was eliminated, NOT playing eco...

Given that Mr. G clearly could handle his own, had lots of uncolonizable asteroids, and more space than any other player (other than maybe NME), Warfleet and Roujheh should have dropped eco, let Mr. G play eco, and have Kfear fed so he could lay pressure on Johnny...even if Mr. G had gotten hit early, he had so many uncolonizables it wouldn't have mattered...by the time DaNife could have hit Mr. G, Warfleet should have been right there (because Jammie should have been out of the game by then)...

Judging from the game, I think it is clear Warfleet is good and knows what he was doing...but he was too focused on playing eco, and that was a HUGE tactical mistake...Jammie should have been gone 20 minutes into the game, yet at thirty minutes he still had 3 planets!?!?!

If TWO players are struggling to wipe out ONE player and neither are getting hit in the back, that is a clear sign you should NOT be playing eco...

Johnny and Auqia held back CCBoom despite the fact the Johnny was being hit in the back and CCBoom was being fed...I understand that CCBoom was in a crap position and Warfleet wasn't in the greatest shape for expanding early...but still, if Johnny and Auqia were holding down CCBoom, Warfleet and Roujheh should have at least taken Jammie's HW by then...

I am still not certain on this 2 trade port thing at the HW...assuming warfleet should have been playing eco, faster expansion would have helped more...there were 3 uncolonizable asteroids by warfleet that weren't even taken 30 minutes into the game....warfleet also didn't have the terran upgrades or resource upgrades researched...expanding faster, sending a colony ship up to those roids, and/or researching terran/resource upgrades would have been better than building 2 tradeports...and, any of those options would have cost a lot less...

Creds to CCBoom for putting up a good last stand, and creds to Mr. G for holding his own, playing very well, and not being arrogant about it....

:

Sorry, double post...forums here keep freezing up on me and I can never tell if I've posted or not....

You guys do realize that in game you are analizeing Warfleet dropped in 37 min of the game. And that i was fighting noob player. NME is better but I would rate him....

Now when I watched reply i did realize that i made tactical error. My first error was that I wasn't scouting NME properly and If i did I would rather attack him than DaKnife. Put Sb against DaKnife and go for NME. 2nd error or strategic option was to go eco once they were abble to held me back. 

Regarding analizeing on me going eco on start. That would have been big mistake.

Game was broken and lost when Warfleet disconnected in 37 min. If he stayed he would have gotten me supply pact and feed me so I could keep pressure on DaKnife. Once he started to get feed yes my micro was much better but I was able to push him to last 2 planets because when we started fighting I had much bigger fleet and once he was able to rebuild his loses as fast as I killed them my advance stopped. At that point instead of going for roid i should have attacked NIM. DaKnife would have to go around.

If i went eco I wouldn't have been able to repel first Daknife attack because I would have been behind fleet wise.

Another breaking point was Kfear futile attack on Jonnys SB and CCB s decision to leave game.

Rouhjeh was complete noob and he didn't know why he cannot feed. They did successfully double Jonny and they kept CCB alive by feeding him. That was very important because he was holding Aquas and Jonnys fleet on him. Both are very skilled players. If it took a little bit longer to kill Jonnys HW but so what. Yes time and speed are important but so is keeping allies in game. In this case it was even more important.

Now if war stayed in game he would have clashed with NIM or Aqua. And since he would have better eco and suply pact with me I doubt he would have any problems. Once he would have attacked trough center CCBs position would come into play. CCB would have harased them from behind and that would have decided game.

Now another important thing was Kfear holding his line with Jonny. If war was still in game Kfear would not had to attack or he would get enough feed that he would be able to breach defenses. He would just had to hold the line..... 

Actually its triple post

I understand Warfleet dropped...my concern is while he was still in the game...Jammie should have been taken out much faster, either gone or at least lost his HW before Warfleet dropped...Warfleet had one cap and waited too long to get LRMs because he was playing "eco"...he invested in trade ports, and yes his early income was higher or comparable to the other players because of it...but not that much higher (15-20 minutes in), and he invested a lot for that early trade...

I think that there were better economic choices he could have made (colonizing faster, getting some uncolonizable roids, or researching terran upgrades) and that he should not have gone eco...Roujheh declared he was going eco very early in the game, and he was in an okay spot to do it; that should have been a cue for Warfleet to focus on quickly taking out Jammie so he could help you...I understand Roujheh didn't know you needed tech to feed players, but that shouldn't have affected Warfleet's gameplay...

I agree with you entirely that eco would not have been a good choice for you once Jammie was defeated...your choice to not play eco was a good one, but it was dependent on the fact that Warfleet is a good eco player AND choose to play eco from the start...there was a lot of ground between you and DaKnife, and you had a lot of uncolonizables...since Warfleet and Roujheh went eco, yet were also fighting from the start, you had no choice but to fend for yourself militarily...but I think your team could have been more effective if Warfleet and Roujheh took out Jammie faster...this would have given you a greater safety net for building up your economy (not playing eco, just going for more economic pursuits)...

Given the choices that Roujheh and Warfleet made, I agree...but if Jammie was out faster, and you focused on economy instead of military in the first 20-30 minutes, then by the time DaKnife was on you Warfleet and Roujheh would have had so much feed (two extra terran worlds!) that your economy + their feed would have given you the ability to build a very large force very quickly...you would have had probably about the same size fleet by the time DaKnife hit, but you'd have better economy and both Warfleet and Roujheh would be entirely eco (and with 2 extra terrans), so you'd have much greater feed and support from your team than you actually did...

This is what happened in your game:

Warfleet and Roujheh went eco from the start and very slowly wore down Jammie...CCBoom held off for a long time and was fed a lot...Kfear hit Johnny while Johnny and Auqia were focused on CCBoom...you expanded and built up forces on your own, readying yourself to fight DaKnife who would be fed by NME...

This is what I think would have been more effective:

Roujheh goes full eco while you focus on building up economy and expanding...Warfleet amasses a large force, and with Roujheh as assist, wipes out Jamie hard and fast....CCBoom does what he already was doing, and Kfear hits Johnny just like he was already doing...once Jammie is wiped out, all the resources from Roujheh and Warfleet go to you and Kfear...

I will admit that hindsight is everything...but scouting should have indicated that wiping out Jammie was TOP priority....CCBoom was in much worse position than Jammie, Johnny was focused on CCBoom and not Kfear, and you were far enough from DaKnife to be safe for the early game...all three of those things could have been predicted just from the map set up, and all lead to one conclusion: kill Jammie as fast as possible...

The key decision of the game was Warfleet choosing to go eco...by doing so, he let Jammie live too long (since Roujheh was also going eco) and forced you to be entirely independent...Warfleet's skill at this game or ability to play eco is not the problem....his decision to play eco that game is what I think is questionable...given the ingame messages and what I've seen on this forum, it seems to me that Warfleet went into that game with the mindset of playing eco....he tried to fit the game to his playstyle, not his playstyle to the game...

That warfleet dropped is unquestionably the most significant thing that happened that game...but I still think that the early game strategy he lead the team into was not the optimal choice...

Good call, I didn't even realize that...why do you forums keep freezing on me?!?!?

Rouhjheh was/is a noob that doesnt know how to eco and since he goes eco it doesn't matter because he doesn't know how to do it. 

If CCB died Kfear would have been steamrolled by jonny or/and aqua and so would have been rouhjeh. So keeping him in game was one of main things we had to do. There were 3 skilled players on our team CCB, War and me. Other team skilled players were Jonny Aqua and NIM. And perhaps Jammie but never played with him before or after that game... So if we loosed one of our skilled compared to 1 of theirs noobs it would have been poor choice.Thats why war had to keep CCB in game and thats why he had to feed. Actually Kfear was steamrolled but much later in the game thanks to keeping CCB alive.

Without feed he would probably crush Jamie but CCB would be crushed as well. 

I agree...except that CCB had only a single terran world...Jammie had two terrans and an asteroid...even if CCBoom is a skilled player, he had only one planet, and was building a fleet based entirely off of feed...in that situation, the economic power of your team I think becomes more important than the skill of one player cornered with one planet...

The front with Kfear was definitely a major concern...to be honest, I think he would have gotten steamrolled no matter what....the difference between what happened and what I have suggested is this:

If warfleet militarized more and took out Jammie faster while giving less feed to CCBoom, I think you would have been in a better position economically and an equal position militarily (assuming jammie is out quick and you were fed) by the time DaKnife hit you...however, CCBoom would have not lasted as long and Kfear would have been hit earlier...basically, your front would have favored you more while Kfear would have likely been in more trouble...either decision comes with great risk, but that's part of the game...

After looking at the replay again (and paying more attention to feed, CCBoom, and Kfear), if your team had gone the route I have suggested, the military and economic edge you would have gained I think would have been overshadowed by Kfear being hit earlier and harder...looking at the game again, I will concede that the tactical ability of Kfear would have put your team at a huge disadvantage if he wasn't fed and CCBoom was not kept in longer...

Though I am still wishy washy on how Warfleet played his eco (not convinced 2 trade ports are best way to go), looking back again I can understand more why Warfleet did what he did...it's not what I would have done, but I'll admit Warfleet probably made the best call given the situation and lack of hindsight...

Lets play your scenario that CCB wasn't feed. CCB would be doubled and since he had no 2 nd planet he would have died in 20 min max I think longest would have been alive is 15 min in truth. Perhaps he would be able to get colony out perhaps not but he is out of the game, Now aqua and Jonny are free to do whatever they want.

Jonny takes fight to Kfear who without massive feed (which in my opinion would have been wasted) doesn't stand a chance. Aqua is free agent and that enables him to hit warfleet which forces war to fleet more or he goes help Daknife which enables NIM to keep his eco position and keep feeding Jonny and Aqua. In my opinion all feed that DaKnife gets in this situation is waste  of it. Once Kfear dies Rouhjeh is not far behind and effectively it becomes 4v2 with other team having eco. At that point even with supply pact between us its gg.

And another thing.

I'we got a feeling that what really bothers your guys is Warfleet ego and that he said that he is best advent eco player. Thats why you are dissecting every thing he says or do.... It all depends on situation and what you do with it... and sometimes you have bad day... 

Just yesterday i played 5s. 3skilled on each team. It was worst game i played recently. I knew i had one guy to attack but I went 2 civ labs first anyway. Sadly for me guy I had to kill was DT star player a guy I yet have to beat(I have never beaten him before - at least on his main account and I have around 500 games under my belt). Me and Higgy were doubling him and if I went mil from start we would have succeed. Higgy Had war on other side and even though he SB his hw he sacrificed it for us to kill Starr.

We or better said I failed big time and not only we didn't get his HW (which didn't have SB on) but I lost all my fleet and feed experience to 2 skirantras till they got lvl 6. I lost all my planets shortly after..... It was GG when I decided that I will build civ labs instead of mil. I was playing TEC. I guess I was hoping that I have noob to fight and once I embargo rush him and kill him I will be able to feed......

In game you were analyzing

In this game Jammie had 2 terans and roid which enabled him to prolong time of him living. If he had standard HW and roid like in most games he would have died much sooner. 

BS.  Now you resort to lieing.  You're so haughty, you don't even consider the facts.

I did take neutrals, but was thwarted.  At one point Mr G diverted his 2 Skirantra to kill my measly 3 scouts!  This eco spot was at a disadvantage to taking neutrals, having to either go thru the pirate base or G's fleet.  And my early priority was scouting, and planet grabbing, with limited fleet (no fleet upgrade).  And I felt those were DaKnife's & Auqia's to take.  If you watch beyond 40 minutes, you'll see that I/we did take neutrals on our side, and attempted to get G's. 

The point was to show a better eco sequence... much like G's replay, and an early comparison of income, as well as Warfleet's attitude.  (He didn't know who I was).

I'd agree.  I am pretty sure ClickClackBoom was DT StarPlayer.  I wish I would have fed Jammie, but had no clue of his skill level, and was more concerned with Mr G's unobstructed advance toward me.

Yes, and that was my concern.  Thats why I kept feeding him, even tho I was dissappointed in his performance.  I've seen him do much better on other occasions.  But he did keep your attention, and it allowed me to further eco up to RA, for a fleet twice the size anyone elses.

Yep, plus his original advice being full of errors.

It really doesn't go into this thread but CCB is not star. I thought that as well but a few days ago they were both in one of games i played so NO hes not.

And BTW Jammie is DT smurf (well not really sure but he was in game DT vs rest - on DT side) but for some reason his performance from game to game varies a lot.

ROFL

I'm not at all sure that you were at a disadvantage with regard to neutrals.  After all, you do have four Vasari to one, and your team has the only true eco spot, yours.  If I had seen MR G with that many neutrals I would have wondered what was going on.  KFear as TEC had a neutral next to the star... 

MR G passed several of his scouts through the pirates to get to neutrals on the other side of the star, and even took neutrals that were beyond the pirates, beyond the star and next to planets occupied by you, and he was fighting at the same time... Getting a few Vasari scouts past pirates is not a difficult matter.  One of yours was past the pirates but was destroyed by militia, which happens to everyone- but the point is that a pack of six or more scouts was called for by the situation.  Every neutral a player takes also denies one to the enemy.

It just becomes clear that Vasari have a vast advantage in this version when four of them are prepared to concede neutrals in this fashion.  MR G has to fleet, has no feed and has to try to push back another player.  Perhaps he could have walled off DaKnife and fought you both 1-to-2 as he suggests, but that would be entirely reliant on his far superior play on the neutrals.   

in the game everyone seems to be talking about the map looked like i was in a eco spot so starting as soon as i saw there was a player inbetween me and roul then i went military and knocked on his door

{SB}=>Warfleet

wth Des?  What did I do to deserve this?  r u secretly a SmashBros, or just hate Vasari that much?  LOL.  If you want to pick apart the replay, I am sure you can find many more mistakes.  For example, I did a terrible job of micro... but I just didn't have the time, and didn't care.  I already agreed that Mr G did an awesome job.  I'm not sure why you think its the eco slot's job to grab neutrals?  I think its better for front line players with adequate fleet to get & hold them, rather than try to feed them that too and incur a tax penalty.