Can Linux go mainstream?

One of the many reasons (IMHO) that People use windows rather than Linux is that Windows is forced upon them. Why get linux when u already have windows installed for you when you buy a new pc?
Granted, windows is at first ALOT easier to use and has better software, but thats only because Microsoft Force it!

Windows is for people who want to be controlled by their pc.
Linux is for people who want to control their pc.

Somethings never change.

"Windows is for people who want to be controlled by their pc.
Linux is for people who want to control their pc."

What the heck does that mean?

exactly as it says. people who use windows are being controlled by their pc - take reboots for instance, windows makes you restart after every flipping thing. -- Linux, you reboot when u change bootloader or kernel.
I like being able to change something if i dont like it. Don' you?

And now with XP SP2, reportedly having nag screens every few mins telling you to reboot...fuck that, I'll stick with Gentoo and XP SP1 for gaming

You picked a rather strange place to make such a statement. We're on WinCustomize. Which part of Windows can't you change that you think people would want to change? I can make Windows do pretty much whatever I want with it. And I get to do it with more hardware and software support and not have to mess around with unfinished rough edges.

Frogboy - Isnt it a rather strange place to have an article on linux? ..wincustomize?
I respect you guys coz you've done a brilliant job making windows better to use - but if you hadn't made things like WB/IP etc then Windows wud be the boring os it is. All the programs stardock does changes the appreance of windows, not the OS itself.

Don't know about you but i like being able to put things like \Program Files onto another HD instead of my main HD. To mount things using text instead of using silly menus.

It's all about choice. I'm not a fan of big clunky icons that hog up valuable space!

Sorry but you are just plain wrong about chagning the way the OS works.

Try DesktopX for instance, we can customize pretty deeply into the OS.

But it's not just that, Windows, in general, is quite customzieable. It's pretty arrogant for someone to argue that people who choose Windows want their OS to control them. It's more than a bit arrogant to say that on an actual customization site full of people who know better.

The Linux dribble about Windows users beeing a bunch of "n00bs" might work fine on Usenet but you're on a site full of users who are expert level. I don't like Linux because I find it to be inferior as a desktop OS. And I base my opinion on having a decades of experience with computer operating systems of various kinds.

Linux advocates don't help their case when they patronize others for their choices. Particularly when their patronizing is so patently unwarranted.

Sorry Frogboy,
But i don't think your "decades" of experience with OS's is proven out from your brief and rather shallow opinion of linux, which you are more than free to throw around. I run both linux and microsoft products, in business and for home use, and find that they both have their positives and negatives. I do find it rather curious though that "skinners, modders, geeks or whatever term we like to use for ourselves for the day", don't look at linux with more than a raised eyebrow because it is so customizable. You can make it look and feel however you want and not have to pay more duckets for products to do it for it. TRY IT, YOU MIGHT LIKE IT. If not, no big, it's all about choices.

FrogBoy:
Listen to yourself. You are Comparing the Abilities of Operating Systems on one hand and the lack of abilities of the other.To change
an icon or to change the Theme is NOT Changing the fact that you still
have to use windows the way Gates says you have to.
Have you tried to use software such as StarOffice, Lotus Suites, Heck
even the supposed shared Tech of the QuickTime JUNK. Windows does Less and Less Each Version.Have you Seen the LONGHORN yet? Talk about chicken $#!%.
Force me to use and or keep IE, Windows Media Player, WordPad,NotePad. Can you take these out without causing a major Crash?
NOT!!!
You Can Make Windows Pretty and even a little fun But you cannot Change The Kernel without MAJOR REPERCUTIONS!!! I Love the Stuff on this site. I Use XP Pro. BUTTTTT I still think that it sucks because I
can't Share programs that my Linux, unix, OS/X friends use and vise-Versa.
We ALL Should be fighting to Make All OS's Compatible, Not Just At the Software end But also the Hardware end.
At Least the Other OS's Are trying to get along, and GATES Don't want
to Play. Just Thought you should see what you sound Like.
Have a good one

Ah I see, so "shallow" in your world means not agreeing with your opinion of Linux. Interesting.

Star - what actual usages of linux would you use? Let's be real, most linux distributions work hard at being a pale immitation of Windows which in itself as a pale immitation of OS/2 and Mac.

If you think that the programs here can only dress up Windows then I feel sorry for you for not having spent any real time seeing just how fundamentally you can alter the actual way the OS works.

Talking about compiling your kernel (and please let us know what "feature" you would add to the kernel while you were compiling it) that Linux users would add.

The typical Linux user I've dealt with is a classic wannabe. They think they're experts on software and computers but in actuality they're just arrogant newbies who choose Linux because they think it makes them "l33t".

Obviously you can potentially customize linux more so than windows because you have the source code. But as a practical matter, I've yet to see a single Linux uesr who has done anything near the kind of customization that Object Desktop users regularly are able to do themselves to Windows.

I don't use Object Desktop to make Windows look pretty. I was an OS/2 user, I don't realy care that much about look. I care about being able to make the computer work the way I want it to. I realize that Linux can potentially do this too since it's so open. But every kind of real world functional customization I might want to do I can do easier with Windows.

I'm still waiting for a Linux "advocate" to post a specific type of customization that they use that anyone outside a miniscule minority of computer users would be interested in.

After all, it's not Windows users running around making assanine claims like "Windows controls the user." I'd like to see, just once, a Linux user put up or shut up on their claims about Linux.  Frankly, I'm getting rather sick of some wet behind the ears college "n00b" trying to claim that the rest of us who have already spent serious time evaluating Linux at various stages in its development and found it wanting are dumb or afraid of trying anything other than Windows.

I put my money where my mouth was. I spent millions of dollars making OS/2 software. I've done the laternative OS bit.  I'm not using Windows because I'm some sort of lemming. I use Windows because there isn't a viable PC alternative. Hell, Linux is only now getting universal clipboard and they still have nothing like OLE or COM built in that is system wide.

As a server, linux is nice. But as a desktop OS, Linux is a fine 1996 level OS.

No Frogboy,
Shallow has nothing to do with your opinion. That you can freely have and share. I used the term in reference to what i viewed as your understanding of linux. Star Rider makes valid point, rather loudly , of the separation of OS and application which linux does provide and windows can't. Windows survives for one reason, businesses are chained to the Microsoft Office cow, namely Outlook. Office pays and slaves their Bills (pun there, lol), not the OS. I have sat in corp. meetings when the discussion of moving off Windows comes up and it chokes on Office and Outlook because our users can't live without it. (mainly Outlook.) No OS can survive without application support, not mom and pop wizware, but business apps. Linux has made and will continue to make strides in that arena. Just go to sourceforge.net and see some of the cool stuff there. My world is about choices as is yours.
Peace

Martin and Star, I think most users trying Linux run into the same conundrum that drove me away from it after two months running it exclusively: loss of productivity.

I've not met a casual linux user. They tend to be the types that love to tweak every single aspect of their environment, and Linux is absolutely the perfect thing for that. Unfortunately, it tends to require that you tweak every single aspect of your environment. Even with a nice RedHat install, I still found so many of the included programs in the developers version to be completely non-interactive with each other. Audio server? Tweaking mini-apps to simply get objects inserted into an imitation Word file? Sure, it comes bundled with a tremendous amount of stuff, but I couldn't get half of it to work without investing hours and hours. Lost productivity.

Recompiling your kernel? For Linux, it's a regular occurrence to incorporate new features. It's also an absolute pain for the regular user to accomplish.

I started Linux with every intention of completely converting, but got just plain frustrated. Much to my chagrin, I was forced to admit Windows was truly a much easier to manage, quickly navigated, and productive environment for myself (definitely not for all).

Of course, I'm not a programmer-user (which I completely believe Linuxers to be). I'm just someone trying to get work done, and found Linux not capable of living up to the goods.

Outlook and Office aren't bad, and I think retraining the business world on a new platform is outright infeasible.

Linux has its place, and I admire those that can use it, but every time I touch it, I can't escape the feeling that it's missing things. I'm glad they continue to develop it, and I genuinely hope it continues to compete. Just makes everybody strive for the best!

Froggy:

Keep you pants on The Answer is None, All. Again you reffer to
Custom Dressing. Will any of the software at this site remove IE, or the media Player?
Can I Decide what Programs I want to be proprietary, Say NETSCAPE NAVIGATOR? Now I'm not Talkink about making it My Default I'm Talking About ONLY!
Can any of this stuff make windows use a linux Program, or Unix?
As far as ONLY ALTERNATIVE DESKTOP... NOT!!!
AS far as Choice you may be closer to speaking truth. When Gates Stole the OS years ago it was the best thing that ever happend in the Programming world for it did motivate a grip of people to create a choice, and unlike GATES they don't keep thier software(APPS) secret
or in-accessible.
Also they don't go around and theaten people that they will find a way to shut them down if they use any other systems than thiers.
Yeah, the deal went down in the 3.1 ERA. Isn't that when you became
a slave to Almighty MS?
If you worked so hard for so long what happend? Oh Yeah you forgot that a Real OS would Allow you to put anything into it and it would
work, BUTTT again if it ain't MS Chances are you will spend at least
30mins of adjusting this adjusting that. I still to this day cannot
easily FORCE IE to keep the Start(Home)Page I choose, yet all the pop-up, pop-under, dialer(That's another piece of junk) they get to infect, infilltrate, and take over MY IE
Personaly, I am Writting an OS of my own and it will be Better And it Will Be Free And it will accept any sofware YOU CHOOSE, and ANY(most)Hardware.
Why Don't you take all your Knowledge and do Something worthwile or
Do you expect your OS to Figure it out for you? Oh Yeah GATES SAID NOT!!!
I have been Programming since '76 and I can asure you that without all the lies and deceptions GATES Would still be at 3.2
So, You Still think that Windows is so great just think......If Your using Post Win98 You are Using Pirated Programming from APPLE
can you say OS/7, 8, 9, 10?

It's hard for me to say whether Linux will or will not become mainstream, I worked for IBM recently, and we were implementing Linux, and alot of other companies are as well.. there are pros and cons to both OS's... UNIX based OS's ie: Linux are more difficult for the 'standard' user to configure, effectively use command-line editing, and so on... while Windows GUI is very easy for most users.. I think Linux is certainly becoming more prevalent in the Business world because it simply is UNIX, which is very stable and powerful code, more secure, etc... and I see the Home-user side of it sticking with Windows... MAC is an entirely different story.. it's BSD based (I know, not BSD, Darwin..) MAC OS runs on RISC based systems, which we all will agree blow the hell out of intel based systems, just because of the architecture... so to summarize.. I think the business world is going to use more Linux because they already have all the intel based systems, and can incorporate UNIX into their work environment to make it more secure, etc...(without buying new hardware), and I see Home users sticking with the Features and ease of Windows.

~just had to put my two-cents worth in

Yeah! What He Said It is all C in the end. I just think that with all the rhetorical garbage All this would lead to some REAL-USER interfaces so we all get the best that ALL Worlds can give to each other.

You can call your Kernal KFC for all I care, CODE is CODE is CODE!
DARWIN,UNIX,LINUX,BSD, it all starts with C. Without C you CANNOT Have any of the others.Without you you don't have C+, C++, OLE, MFC, C#, .Net etc,etc,etc.

I would like to see someone here Make the Interface to allow OS's to
share the APPS and we would all be better off.....Ya Think?

I do Agree that All OS's Have thier good/bad points. With this(winXP)
I wish I could disable and/or remove Component/APPS of MY CHOOSING!

Hell does anyone remember Norton Command?

I guess we just HAVE to USE Windows LongHorn and get even more virus's and spam and pop-ups, pop-downs, pop-unders, and even more people using my computer than me and my 3 kids everytime it goes online. I guess I'll just make it look pretty and load it as the most expensive game console on the block.

Not!!! Got the MAC in the BACK

Having continually used Linux since '93 (slackware and pre 1.0 kernel) and Windows since '90 (Windows 3.0) (and humbly claiming advanced to expert ability with both systems), I will still say that for the average desktop user, there is no compelling reason to switch from Windows to Linux. And that has *nothing* to do with any actual or perceived shortcomings in either platform. The main reason there's no reason for joe average to switch is that Windows is *good enough*.

It comes already installed on the machines that they use, and it does what they want it to do. Even the skinning and enhancement community for Windows (which is substantial, just going by the userbase for WC) is still a very minute fraction of the total number of users. Most computer users are not at all like those of us who frequent a customization site (for any platform). Their perception of a computer is pretty much as if it were a toaster that gets email and lets them browse the web.

There is some good chance for Linux to make inroads in the business environment, however. While Office will be difficult to supplant, there are significant cost savings to a business for using Linux (mostly in terms of licensing). Since most business shops have an IS dept that handles PC setup and uniformity, there's no real difference in the overall user experience. The main difference is that since most people who use computers at home use Windows, and that familiarity translates to the working environment, workers will be *initially* more productive on a Windows environment at work, but it's not that hard to train them if the benefits are there. And one very strong point in favor of Linux in a business environment is that you aren't tied to a single vendor for something that is or might be business critical. That doesn't make Windows a bad choice, but it does limit your options if you find yourself in a situation where that single vendor becomes an issue.

I also would not necessarily rule out the possibility of Microsoft doing something stupid to lose their hold. It's highly unlikely (especially in the short term), but not impossible.

For the most part, I like what I hear about Longhorn, in terms of user features and some of the underlying improvements, but I'm not sanguine about the potential for invasive levels of Digital Restrictions Management (especially any that are defined by *one* single source, whoever that source may be).

Guys, relax, OK? There's no need to become militant or take up arms.

I tried this fall to switch to Linux--I really did, in earnest. I'd already been running OpenOffice and Mozilla, so there wasn't even a learning curve for me there. I tried several distros--Red Hat, Mandrake, Xandros, Lycoris--nothing did it. I've spent considerable time in Linux land. And it was great fun when I had no family or personal responsibilities--and oodles of time to configure my system. But right now, like most people, I just want something that works well, and without having to spend hours upon hours just setting things up. And Win2K and up does that for me. I've been a Windows user since 3.0, and I cut my teeth on DOS long before that. I'm well aware of Windows' shortcomings...and some of the poor decisions the folks in Redmond make. But for me, Windows works. And the nice thing about OD is that it allows me to change the things about Windows I don't like--the launching system, the fact that I can't get "Search" on my start menu to point to Agent Ransack--little annoyances like that.

If you've cut your teeth on Linux and can get it to go and be productive for you without jumping through hurdles, good for you. Keep at it. Same with MacOS. Me, I've been raised up in the DOS/Windows world and was hacking at my OS long before it was popular to do so. Give me 2 hours, and I can get a Windows OS up and productive--not 100% tweaked, but I can get some work done. That didn't quite happen on Linux for me...AMOF, I never did get productive. But I had fun playing! And if I had more time, I'd probably get it, too.

But I have a wife and 3 kids. And a job. Among other things. My PCs just need to work.

Windows does that fairly well, OOTB.

My 2-cents,
.:elem

I play with Linux on occasion. I use Windows a LOT. And I agree with Frog when he says (extrapolating a bit, but in essence he pretty much said it) that he (and EVERYONE, with the proper know-how) can change any aspect of Windows that he sees fit. And it's true. If Frog decided one day that suddenly HE wanted to do for Linux what he and Stardock did for Windows, then hell nor high water (nor recompiling a kernel -- sorry, had to take the pop shot ) would stop him. And he is NOT saying that Linux is a BAD operating system. He's saying it's not matured yet. A big difference.

I like Linux. I like Windows also. There are things that Windows could (and should) do better. No one has EVER denied that. But I think that Linux has it's pros and cons as well. You can't compare the two side-by-side. Windows has had billions and billions of dollars invested into it's development, from the most talented and "big-time" programmers that money and time can get. Linux has had a hardcore following of ...I dunno...ten, twenty, thirty thousand people working on it either in their spare time or on a small-to-medium corporate setting. (Of course, there are many more users of linux than that, but stay with me...). The point is that windows has had MUCH more development thrown at it. Linux is FINE for what it is --- free, and open to anyone who wants to learn something and contribute to the whole. But it's not ready to take windows on head-to-head. Not in the terms that are being discussed.

COULD Linux ever be ready? I think it COULD be, in ten years (assuming that Windows remains more or less the same -- which it WON'T given that Longhorn is going to blow the doors off of EVERYTHING anyone ever knew or thought about Windows). Linux in ten years MIGHT just be getting to the level WinXP is now. But in the end, Linux will fall by the wayside as a standardized desktop OS. I'm sorry, everyone, but that's the way it WILL be. And I hate saying that, because personally, I think Linux is nice. But it's not Windows XP, and it's definetely NOT Longhorn or OS-10. So I side with Frogboy on this one.

So to stay true to the topic at hand... "can Linux go mainstream?" in the long run, probably so.. even more-so for businesses.. the Gen-Xers grew up with computers, and I think the level of knowledge is increasing in the Tech industry, so it's far more likely that it will possibly become mainstream in that respect... but for the average user that wants a quick and easy setup, etc.. and for the small businesses that don't have the time to spend on customization, I think they will most likely stick to Windows..


It's all a matter of opinion..
~What purpose are you using your O/S for~
UNIX is virus free and far superior in the security realm.. makes for a great firewall or server..(currently.. whose to say Microsoft won't fix their security issues)

Windows has some great features and is getting more powerful by the build.. (as long as they keep the registry editable ) as well as being productivity friendly..

Linux bridges the gap between RISC and intel based architectures.. running UNIX on a standard PC.. that's what's appealing to most Linux users I believe.. at least it is for me.


Everyone here has brought some great points up.. and I think the flavor of this whole topic is that Linux certainly has potential to become mainstream... but for the average user... it's going to be a long while before that happens...

"I'm still waiting for a Linux "advocate" to post a specific type of customization that they use that anyone outside a miniscule minority of computer users would be interested in."

well, there are plenty of them as window skinning, icon themes, fully custom desktops etc. for which a Windows user has to use third party software. that´s what you´re doing with your company, don´t you

here´s just two exclusive things that i think many users here could be interested:

caption button order and placement is a user dependent setting in Metacity. one could argue that you could use Skinstudio for this, but i doubt there is anybody willing to do this for every single skin.

Gnome can use SVG (vector) icons that look good at just any size. it could do this long before MS was talking about what they are planning for Longhorn. no matter wether users will be interested in that they´ll have to use it, if they choose to use Longhorn when it comes out in three years or so.

If Linux came preinstalled and properly setup like some new Windows machines, then yes, it could go mainstream. (bare with me here)

Real life experiment. Just over a year ago, my brother (one the of the real Linux nerds) gave my mum a PC with Redhat installed. It was his old PC that he wiped clean and put a fresh install of Redhat on. He pre-setup all the hardware and made sure it was all working (internet etc), and presented my Mum with her new PC (ironically its a slower CPU shhhh!) Now back then my mum was an occasional Windows user (we're literally talking 2-3 times a month (bless )) but now she is an occasional Linux user, she can use OpenOffice, she can browse the internet and she can use email. All my brother told her is that the 'Red Hat' is the now the start button and the 'home' folder is My Documents. Everything is there in a logical place and she it quite content to use it as her desktop PC.

A lot of PC users don't do much (especially new users) other than pull their Dell PC (for example) from the box, plug it in and use it, without changing anything about it (it works! don't touch a thing you'll break it!)

However, we've all read the stupid stories that customer/tech support people have to deal with, imagine the horror stories with Linux.

"you need to type in ./configure then ./make and then ./make install into your console"

"but my PS2 doesn't have a keyboard"

So, a pre-installed, pre-setup Linux will be great, just take a leaf out of my mum’s book - don't su

Woodbridge - Son to a Geek mum

well i've been using Linux regularly for over a year now and it is SUPERB.
It is not rough round the edges, taped together, inferior or in anyway less than Windows.
If you havent seen a recent Linux desktop i suggest you get over to http://www.kde-look.org and check out some of the screen shots.
Linux is coming, like it or not, to a desktop near you. Once the numbers reach a certain level, market economics will force the software houses like Adobe and Macromedia et al to begin coding for Linux platforms.
I can play both Unreal Tournaments, Quake3, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Soldier of Fortune, Medal of Honour and many more on Linux. Mandrake Linux comes with hundreds of free programmes, office suites, media players, games, web browsers, compilers, programming suites and so on.

Why am I here then you might wonder.
Well,
I keep Xp on for my children to play one or two non linux compliant games on. And I've been skinning windows from this site for two or three years now.
But, really, Linux really does rock most awesomly. It's no harder than windows, it's just different.

"Well, there are plenty of them as window skinning, icon themes, fully custom desktops etc. for which a Windows user has to use third party software. that´s what you´re doing with your company, don´t you"

Yes, there are plenty of icons and themes. However, all software on Linux is third party because as a whole Linux isn't developed by one company. And no, the distro companies don't count. Linux is just a kernel so as soon as you add anything, you are using third party software. It's layers upon layers of third party software.

In my opinion though it doesn't matter if the software is first, or third party as long as it works.

Wow...I never knew there was this much passion, for an OS of all things. This type of passion for a product could be what is needed to push it over the edge. But, I must agree with Frogboy...XP works well for what I do everyday. If we were talking about Win95 It would be a different story.

But be careful...when your passion for something turns into aggression...then you have lost me and my Windows friends. I have an open mind and will try anything...as long as it is presented well.

As for my computer controlling me...get a clue. There is nothing I hate more than stuiped comments made about a general group of people that has no basis. Keep that trash to yourself and you'll fare more respect from all of us.

Wow is right...from pointing out that Froggy was compairing an OS to
Apps that is a stretch.
Windows is also total 3rd party. Do they not use/play games, movies,
Read and write programs? What the Issue is, Being Mainstream Desktop
and the truth is as many have pointed out, it depends on the reason for the system.
Let's say you work every day with Unix/Linux and you go home and want to go on-line but the computer at home now has windows on it, wow
where did my OS go? Thry do the same things in different ways, this would not be good would it cause now you have to WORK and LEARN in order to make the new OS do what you want.
Do beware! Almost ALL schools in this country use MAC's/OS 9or10 and
when they come home to do Computer work They all complain as to where
or how to do something. Now they Really like my RED HAT and yes they
can and do right code and have made small tools that almost instantly drop right into thier MACs at school! Can't do it with anything MS
Try Making a game with windows unless you use 3rd Party Tools.
Linux HAS all the Tools with it, and the ones that don't are coded in a snap or you can see what this is really about.
Can you make the next WINDOWS *.* Not you don't have thr Kernal.
Linux/GNU have it right, You want the next cool toy to play with or a more TAYLORED Script writer/reader cause Notepad is not quite enough and Wordpad isn't really worth it. SEE with Linux you can. Yes there is tons of APPs for Both, BUTTTT you still Cannot TAKE anything out of
windows without CRRAASHHHING or totally LOCKING up and Requiring a fistful or two of hair to fix your System.
Since the children of today want change now, they Will mostlikely choose Linux over Windows.
If you want to ride a Rice burnner is fine if you want a BIKE Well...
The HOG TAKES/GIVES more love and affection than the Rice Burnner.
Yeah more people own KAWs than HOGs, the Question is do you want a BIKE or do you want a ride?