Just bought the game, some thoughts.

Also need of help. =)

from Sins Forums

So I bought the game today, found it in stores when browsing, and since I've read some good things about the game I decided to pick it up. Game seems like a lot of fun, and will probably prove to be worth the money.

 

Anyways is it just me or does games take a long time to finnish? Even small ones that is. It's probably just me, but I struggled for 3 hours and 40 mins with the first single player map, the one with 7 planets and a star. I played with a random normal bot and pirates activated, and tbh I suspect the pirates actually saved my ass, since I was able to keep my enemy occupied with the pirate raids until I got 2 capital ships lvled a bit and some frigates to escort it. Also I relied heavily on static defences, but it seems like whenever I was away dealing with what looked like a fairly large enemy force, he strikes at me from the other side of the map with an even larger force. The deciding factors in that game for me to win was the use of 3 capital ships at the end, which took down 10+ carriers and some static defences alone no problem.

 

But the biggest thing is that somehow the computer always expands faster than I do. They send a first assault force to me, and since the asteriod/planet I scouted had some pirate activity, I could not settle there until the first assault was dealt with. But somehow he still managed to expand.

 

Also I really can't seem to come up with a good balance of those turrent/beat type defence buildings and hangars. I often overcompensate in one thing, which enables to AI to counter it. At least from my experience.

 

Another annoying thing I noticed is that the AI only spams like 2 different ships. Either those first frigates you start with or carrier ships, and of course throwing in a capital ship for good meassure. So is the best way to counter that just to mass produce one type of ship myself? Since I'd love to utilize all the ship types, but that doesn't really seem viable.

 

Also do AI gain more resources than players do? Since he always seemed capable of reproducing his army much quicker than I could. For instance after he made a failed attack, I would launch a counter attack on his planet, but I'm always greeted by about the same amount of ships that I just killed. And after having destroyed him, it didn't seem like he had so many shipyards either to produce more ships at a time.

 

 

 

Anyway that's my thoughts so far. If anyone got some good tips for a new player I'd love to hear them. But since it's 4 am here soon it's time for some sleep. :D

5,770 views 9 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

Well, it does take some practice to get good with the game, but yes the games can run long (some times can run on for days for myself)

you have done good with keep up with the pirates so score one with that, usually most rookies can't deal with the pirates

as for the AI, yeah its a bit lame so once you find the counters (for what you are against try long range frigates and flak frigates) you can win almost everytime, multiplayer is much more complex

as for static defenses, they aren't much to speak of unless you get the Entrenchment expansion (if you have Trinity you have Entrenchment) so don't worry about that

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

Yeah, most veteran players don't invest much in static defenses except in a couple of specific situations, like a really good choke point is on the map (I.e. Gateway on the Gateway map). The exception to this are repair bays, which is a truly awesome structure, especially on point blank. Also learning how to expand as fast as possible is probably the most important skill in the game, though not on point blank (I usually just rush the enemy homeworld sense it is right there. If you are TEC build a Sova carrier and put embargo and on it and you should be able to win the war of attrition without having to even get the asteroid).

Your first games will take a long time when you are first starting out, as you will still be learning how everything works. But eventually you'll be able to beat most small maps in less than a half an hour. Now the larger maps I have had take days against hard AIs, but that doesn't hold true in multiplayer.

On a small map like point blank, you probably won't see many different ship types (two few planets to support researching a lot). On bigger maps the AI will research more and may diversify his fleet more. Though some AI types like aggressive like spamming.

The AI starts getting a resource boost at the hard level, and gets a bigger boost at each increase in difficulty. But easy and normal get resources at the same rate at the player. After you have a bit more experience with managing your economy you'll probably start to outproduce the normal AI easily (quick tip, use the empire tree to start building replacement ships while you are managing the battle, as you can bet the AI will be doing the same thing).

 

Multiplicity - Control multiple PCs using one keyboard and mouse
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

But the biggest thing is that somehow the computer always expands faster than I do.
End of quote

Slow expansion is a common issue with beginners.  You'll get over it, and in time you'll find the AI expands so slowly that it isn't actually a real threat on normal difficulty at all.

I presume the map you're playing on is "Point Blank".  This map is a bit of an oddity, and for experienced players it's effectively a sudden death scenario where someone is going to lose within the first 10 minutes, making expansion a moot point.  Once you learn the pacing, you'll see what I mean.  

Also I really can't seem to come up with a good balance of those turrent/beat type defence buildings and hangars. I often overcompensate in one thing, which enables to AI to counter it. At least from my experience.
End of quote

The best form of tactical defense is the repair bay.  Cut back on hangers and turrets, they're expensive and immobile, and need to be used sparingly.  Save the money you would otherwise spend on these structures (and associated tactical planetary upgrades) and pour that into your fleet.

Another annoying thing I noticed is that the AI only spams like 2 different ships. Either those first frigates you start with or carrier ships, and of course throwing in a capital ship for good meassure. So is the best way to counter that just to mass produce one type of ship myself? Since I'd love to utilize all the ship types, but that doesn't really seem viable.
End of quote

On a map this small, you don't have much option to diversify.  Pretty much the ONLY approach is LRF spam (Advent is stuck with LF spam, unfortunately, putting them at a massive disadvantage) with carrier capital ships.  On larger maps you often see a lot more diversification, but in sudden death scenarios it's all about pumping damage dealers.

Also do AI gain more resources than players do?
End of quote

Hard difficulty and higher do, normal difficulty gets as much as you, easy gets less.  This is probably a budgeting issue, which you'll get over with a bit of experience.  Also, you may be making common beginners mistakes like spending too much on technologies or not purchasing planet population upgrades.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Ryat,
Well, it does take some practice to get good with the game, but yes the games can run long (some times can run on for days for myself)
End of Ryat's quote

 

Days eh? Guess it some maps this game can be kinda similar to X3 then, although this is more strategy based when it comes to building and fleet management. :D


Quoting Ryat,
you have done good with keep up with the pirates so score one with that, usually most rookies can't deal with the pirates
End of Ryat's quote

 

Thanks! Like I said earlier the pirates probably saved me in that game lol. Although I did have a few misses where I was occupied with fighting and didn't notice the AI overbidding me until it was too late. I swear at least 2 times I clicked on the bid button a split second too late.


Still just keeping an eye on the counter isn't too much extra to keep up with, and once I figured out I didn't have to open that black market screen to place a bounty, but just click on that bounty icon in the top right corner it was pretty easy.


Quoting Ryat,
as for the AI, yeah its a bit lame so once you find the counters (for what you are against try long range frigates and flak frigates) you can win almost everytime, multiplayer is much more complex
End of Ryat's quote

 

Tried that, but never seemed to have enough resources to out-macro the AI, so had to use some static defences and pirates to get the upper hand.


Quoting Ryat,
as for static defenses, they aren't much to speak of unless you get the Entrenchment expansion (if you have Trinity you have Entrenchment) so don't worry about that
End of Ryat's quote

 

I got the retail version, so I guess I don't have Entrenchment or Trinity? I'm from Norway so it's a EU retail version if that makes a difference. At least there is no notes or labels or anything about expansion, so I figure it came without expansions.

 

Quoting GoaFan77,
Yeah, most veteran players don't invest much in static defenses except in a couple of specific situations, like a really good choke point is on the map (I.e. Gateway on the Gateway map). The exception to this are repair bays, which is a truly awesome structure, especially on point blank. Also learning how to expand as fast as possible is probably the most important skill in the game, though not on point blank (I usually just rush the enemy homeworld sense it is right there. If you are TEC build a Sova carrier and put embargo and on it and you should be able to win the war of attrition without having to even get the asteroid).

Your first games will take a long time when you are first starting out, as you will still be learning how everything works. But eventually you'll be able to beat most small maps in less than a half an hour. Now the larger maps I have had take days against hard AIs, but that doesn't hold true in multiplayer.
End of GoaFan77's quote

 

So what are some good tips on fast expanding? I only played the Point Blank one (first map), and as I tried to get enough ships to get out and expand I also had to fight off the AI. Guess he tried for an early victory.

 

Quoting GoaFan77,
The AI starts getting a resource boost at the hard level, and gets a bigger boost at each increase in difficulty. But easy and normal get resources at the same rate at the player. After you have a bit more experience with managing your economy you'll probably start to outproduce the normal AI easily (quick tip, use the empire tree to start building replacement ships while you are managing the battle, as you can bet the AI will be doing the same thing).
End of GoaFan77's quote

 

I guess I'll be staying at normal for a while then. I considered trying easy last night when I played, but then I basically told myself to man up and just learn to deal with a tough AI. I've always had the mentality that you learn more by going up agains tougher opponents, which probably was the deciding factor for me to stick with normal. :D



Quoting Darvin3,
Also I really can't seem to come up with a good balance of those turrent/beat type defence buildings and hangars. I often overcompensate in one thing, which enables to AI to counter it. At least from my experience.
The best form of tactical defense is the repair bay.  Cut back on hangers and turrets, they're expensive and immobile, and need to be used sparingly.  Save the money you would otherwise spend on these structures (and associated tactical planetary upgrades) and pour that into your fleet.
End of Darvin3's quote

 

Yea thinking back on the fight, my to biggest flaws was trying to tech more than I should and using lots of static defences. While I did manage to pull through, I can't help but wonder if I'd been better off spamming some unit or another instead of using static defences.

 

Quoting Darvin3,
Another annoying thing I noticed is that the AI only spams like 2 different ships. Either those first frigates you start with or carrier ships, and of course throwing in a capital ship for good meassure. So is the best way to counter that just to mass produce one type of ship myself? Since I'd love to utilize all the ship types, but that doesn't really seem viable.
On a map this small, you don't have much option to diversify.  Pretty much the ONLY approach is LRF spam (Advent is stuck with LF spam, unfortunately, putting them at a massive disadvantage) with carrier capital ships.  On larger maps you often see a lot more diversification, but in sudden death scenarios it's all about pumping damage dealers.
End of Darvin3's quote

Well I guess I'm off to try a bigger map then. With some more reading done today, the help from you guys and 1 match won under my belt I hope I'll do a bit better.

 

But before I start, is it worth getting the Entrenchement and Trinity packs? And if so can I still play the same maps that I can now but with the updated content? Since I've seen some people talking about a starbase, which sounds really interesting. :D

 

(damn me and those defences hehe) ^_^

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

yes Entrenchment and Diplomacy are worth it (Trinity just brings them all together in one package so buying the xpacks on their own is cheaper Trinity=$40 vs Entrenchment + Diplomacy=$20)

as for the rest of the content, it all remains the same, but yeah the starbases in Entrenchemnt really changes the tactics (Diplomacy changes up the way the AI plays and is much harder to some degree to deal with)

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

Well I guess I'm off to try a bigger map then. With some more reading done today, the help from you guys and 1 match won under my belt I hope I'll do a bit better.
End of quote

Try the randomly generated 1v1 map.  Although it will occasionally gimp one of the players (it is random, after all) it usually produces a superior scale and distance for a 1v1 fight.  You're not too far away to rush, but not so close as to make a rush mandatory.


But before I start, is it worth getting the Entrenchement and Trinity packs? And if so can I still play the same maps that I can now but with the updated content? Since I've seen some people talking about a starbase, which sounds really interesting
End of quote


This game has two expansion packs, Entrenchment and Diplomacy (Diplomacy requires Entrenchment).  Trinity is the complete compilation of the base game, Entrenchnment, and Diplomacy.  You already own the base game, so you don't want to buy Trinity, you want to buy the expansions separately.

The same maps are available in the expansion packs as the original.  The new material just adds to the game, and as far as singleplayer goes both expansion packs are masterful additions.

Starbases are only one of the goodies (although certainly the most dramatic!) in the expansion packs.  Once heavily upgraded, a starbase is virtually impervious to direct assault, and unfortunately this kills the difficulty against the AI since direct assault is pretty much the only trick it knows.


(damn me and those defences hehe)
End of quote

Starbases are definitely better investments than turrets, not only because they actually can be upgraded with other roles than just pure military.  Still, you need to put repair bays next to them because losing a starbase is huge, so every hit point counts.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

This game has a learning curve, so don't worry too much about your first couple games.  My advice is to play with no more than 2 capital ships (they are really support ships--not fighting ships) and to make your first capital ship the one that can colonize--the mothership (Akkan, Progenitor, or Evacuator depending on your race).  At the start of the game, the very first thing you should do is build your capital ship factory if it is not already there for you, then build the mineral extractors if they are not already there.  Then order production of that colonizer capital ship (the first capital ship is always free), then make 3 scouts and have them start scouting.  Send the capital ship to your nearby asteroid first because it gives you the best bang for your buck early on and is lightly defended.

So, don't build more than 2 capital ships unless it's later in the game and you already have a large fleet.  Instead, focus on spamming out your race's Long Range Frigate--LRM, Illuminator, or Assailant.  Long Range Frigates provide the best bang for your buck.  Also make a couple support frigates to help them--flak ships (anti-strikecraft), a few carriers with fighters (to fight strikecraft), and perhaps a couple of your race's support ships (Hoshikos if TEC, Guardians if Advent).  But the bulk of your fleet should be Long Range Frigates.

Try to focus on expanding quickly and early.  Also remember to always level up the population on your planets (1 for an asteroid, 2 for a planet) or it will drain away your money.

You should also learn how to Focus Fire.  Focus firing is when you order all of your ships, at least the fighting ships like the Long Range Frigates--to attack individual targets one by one.   So all of your LRFs will fire on one single ship until it dies, then the next enemy ship.  You'll find that you can easily knock down AI capital ships if you do this and if you have a large enough fleet.

I know you're far away from ever coming online, but do note that online multiplayer games with all human players do not take forever to play.  (This is a common misconception.)  It really only takes 1:15-1:45 on average for a 5v5 game.  (Why is that?  Because you don't have to kill all 5 of the opposing players by yourself and when the losing team realizes that the game is lost, they will just surrender by quitting the game, allowing players to start a new competitive game where the outcome has not yet been determined.)  You can also come online to play comp stomps--humans against the computer--which might be a good way to receive advice from other players.

 

 

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Korialstraz, reply 4


But before I start, is it worth getting the Entrenchement and Trinity packs? And if so can I still play the same maps that I can now but with the updated content? Since I've seen some people talking about a starbase, which sounds really interesting.
 
End of Korialstraz's quote

I'm not sure how they were marketed in the EU, but Entrenchment was the first expansion that focused on the defensive aspects that the base game was largely lacking (so they added those starbases, mines and a bunch of other goodies for those static defenses you're fond of). Diplomacy was the second expansion, and basically buffed the also rather lacking diplomacy system and added a bunch of new incentives to focus more on civic aspects of the game. Trinity is the kind of "Gold Edition", which has the base game and both expansions already included. If you already have the base game, just get the expansions separately, it will be $20 for both. If you are not sure what version, check the research tree. The base game had three research trees, entrenchment four, and diplomacy/trinity 5 (they added one in each expansion).

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

Edit: Sorry for the huge fail quote here. Maybe I'm just tired (got it to work earlier), but I just can't seem to locate where the screw up is.

 

It's not that I'm not used to forums. In fact I'm an admin on 2 forums, moderator on another and excluding this one a member on 2 other forums which I visit on a regular basis, with an account on probably 6+ forums. But this quite thing here really is unique compared to what I'm used to. And again maybe I just can't find it, but the lack of a multi-quite function really is annoying!

 

Anyway I'm sure you'll be able to make out what's been posted here. >_> I'll see again tomorrow after getting some sleep if I can see where I screwed up here.

 

 

Quoting Ryat,
yes Entrenchment and Diplomacy are worth it (Trinity just brings them all together in one package so buying the xpacks on their own is cheaper Trinity=$40 vs Entrenchment + Diplomacy=$20)

as for the rest of the content, it all remains the same, but yeah the starbases in Entrenchemnt really changes the tactics (Diplomacy changes up the way the AI plays and is much harder to some degree to deal with)
End of Ryat's quote

 

Yea I meant Entrenchment and Diplomacy ofc. Was looking at them on Impulse earlier. Maybe I should buy and DL it over night.

 

Quoting Darvin3,
Try the randomly generated 1v1 map.  Although it will occasionally gimp one of the players (it is random, after all) it usually produces a superior scale and distance for a 1v1 fight.  You're not too far away to rush, but not so close as to make a rush mandatory.
End of Darvin3's quote

 

I'll give that a whirl after my current game. Went for that agamemnon map(?) the one with 3 stars and some 20 planets or something. And it seems I've become better at expanding, already having 2 asteriod belts, a metal extractor captured, and about to take my second planet, while the AI has starting planet and 2 asteriods. And I believe I got my asteroids nailed before he did. But that map looks like it can be really really fun, since it's a bit bigger so I'll get time to play around with techs and different ships a bit more.

 

Quoting Darvin3,
Starbases are definitely better investments than turrets, not only because they actually can be upgraded with other roles than just pure military.  Still, you need to put repair bays next to them because losing a starbase is huge, so every hit point counts.
End of Darvin3's quote

 

Other roles you say? Anything that would bolster my economy or something? Is there perhaps a page to read about the Starbases? I'm sure I could find it by searching a bit, but if you (or anyone else) can be bothered to link it I'd really appreciate it. Getting late here so thinking about going to sleep in not too long. ;)

 

Quoting DirtySanchezz,
This game has a learning curve, so don't worry too much about your first couple games.  My advice is to play with no more than 2 capital ships (they are really support ships--not fighting ships) and to make your first capital ship the one that can colonize--the mothership (Akkan, Progenitor, or Evacuator depending on your race).  At the start of the game, the very first thing you should do is build your capital ship factory if it is not already there for you, then build the mineral extractors if they are not already there.  Then order production of that colonizer capital ship (the first capital ship is always free), then make 3 scouts and have them start scouting.  Send the capital ship to your nearby asteroid first because it gives you the best bang for your buck early on and is lightly defended.

So, don't build more than 2 capital ships unless it's later in the game and you already have a large fleet.  Instead, focus on spamming out your race's Long Range Frigate--LRM, Illuminator, or Assailant.  Long Range Frigates provide the best bang for your buck.  Also make a couple support frigates to help them--flak ships (anti-strikecraft), a few carriers with fighters (to fight strikecraft), and perhaps a couple of your race's support ships (Hoshikos if TEC, Guardians if Advent).  But the bulk of your fleet should be Long Range Frigates.

Try to focus on expanding quickly and early.  Also remember to always level up the population on your planets (1 for an asteroid, 2 for a planet) or it will drain away your money.
End of DirtySanchezz's quote

 

Thanks!!! Exactly the kind tips I was hoping for! Although I like that war ship for my first capital, since after just a couple lvls it can take SO much punnishment. But I guess this depends a bit on the map. If the AI isn't that close, you can take it a bit slower and use the warship to clear out a couple asteriods, while you get that regular colonize ship in the meantime.

 

And yea I did the misstake of not upgrading population after taking a planet/asteriod, and was wondering why my gold was suddenly coming in so slowly. Quickly realized why though, but the damage was already done so to speak.

 

Quoting DirtySanchezz,
You should also learn how to Focus Fire.  Focus firing is when you order all of your ships, at least the fighting ships like the Long Range Frigates--to attack individual targets one by one.   So all of your LRFs will fire on one single ship until it dies, then the next enemy ship.  You'll find that you can easily knock down AI capital ships if you do this and if you have a large enough fleet.
End of DirtySanchezz's quote

 

Yea I'm familiar with focus fire from other games. Played quite a few strategy games and such where focus fire can really save your ass. But so far it's not AI ships that has caused the most hassle, but more a combination of those light frigates and masses of strikecrafts.

 

Quoting DirtySanchezz,
I know you're far away from ever coming online, but do note that online multiplayer games with all human players do not take forever to play.  (This is a common misconception.)  It really only takes 1:15-1:45 on average for a 5v5 game.  (Why is that?  Because you don't have to kill all 5 of the opposing players by yourself and when the losing team realizes that the game is lost, they will just surrender by quitting the game, allowing players to start a new competitive game where the outcome has not yet been determined.)  You can also come online to play comp stomps--humans against the computer--which might be a good way to receive advice from other players.
End of DirtySanchezz's quote

 

That was actually something I was getting worried about. If a noob takes over 3 hours against a computers, how the heck would it be with online play, especially if several of the other players also are new to the game. :D

 

Quoting GoaFan77,
I'm not sure how they were marketed in the EU, but Entrenchment was the first expansion that focused on the defensive aspects that the base game was largely lacking (so they added those starbases, mines and a bunch of other goodies for those static defenses you're fond of). Diplomacy was the second expansion, and basically buffed the also rather lacking diplomacy system and added a bunch of new incentives to focus more on civic aspects of the game. Trinity is the kind of "Gold Edition", which has the base game and both expansions already included. If you already have the base game, just get the expansions separately, it will be $20 for both. If you are not sure what version, check the research tree. The base game had three research trees, entrenchment four, and diplomacy/trinity 5 (they added one in each expansion).
End of GoaFan77's quote

 

Well I only saw the normal sins game, no expansions or gold editions or anything. Maybe this game just isn't that popular in Norway. ^_^