Poll Result: Should military force be used against Iraq?

Nobody wants war. And using military action against a sovereign country is something that shouldn't be done lightly.

There are many principled viewpoints on both sides. And, unfortunately, there's a lot of arrogance on both sides as well.

-- The case against military action --
On the case against military action, there is the simple fact that Iraq is a sovereign country and that the world is supposed to put its faith into the United Nations to determine when military action against a country is warranted. The UN has enacted a new resolution that provides for military inspectors to help ensure that Iraq has given up its weapons of mass destruction. Perhaps more time could be given to make the dtermination of whether Iraq has really complied.

Besides, a regime change in Iraq, as terrible as Saddam is, would leave quite a vacuum which could destabilize the entire middle east. Terrorist reprisals could be made on western countries and an unknown number of innocent civilians could be harmed in the process. It seems a better way might be to contain Saddam and just keey a close eye on him. What right, does the United States and UK have to decide who governs what country?

And if the USA/UK are going to go into Iraq, where does it stop? If they become the final arbiter on who is allowed to have a country, who's next? Is this the wave of the future? That an american hyperpower is going to run amok across the world in order to create a new world order of its own design? Would it not be better for the US and UK to work with their friends and come to a better understanding?

Is Iraq really that dangerous? If it is, then surely there would be more obvious evidence. A smoking gun. Not inuendo and rumor but facts ala the Cuban Missile Crisis. Anything less only feeds the rumors that this excursion is really about controlling oil resources and cementing Anglo-American world hegemony.

-- The case for military action --
Not only is Saddam a brutal dictator that has killed thousands of his own people with chemical weapons over the years, he actively gives money to suicide bombers in Israel. Shortly after 9/11 the policy of the United States has been to replace regimes that support terrorism. Clearly Saddam fits the bill there.

Additionally, for 11 years Saddam has played cat and mouse with the UN. The 1991 Gulf War CEASE FIRE rested on the stipulation that he abide by the UN resolutions. He has violated this for 11 years and reports from Iraq indicate that he continues to play those games. Is the UN as useless as the league of nations?

The inspectors aren't there to search for WMD, they are there to work WITH Iraq to ensure compliance. South Africa, Ukraine, and others have gone through this process in the past without problems. The fact is, Saddam wants weapons of mass destruction. Starting with chemical and biological and ending with nuclear weapons. There is no shortage of evidence to show that. You can't take a picture of a nuclear bomb. But defectors and evidence recovered by inspectors along with intelligence has shown a trail that leads to only a single conclusion: Saddam is trying to get these weapons in violation of the cease fire terms.

And what would he do with such weapons? Based on his history, he would use them to intimidate his neighbors and dominate the middle east. He might provide them to terrorists. Oil isn't the main issue here, security is. But before you dismiss oil as being something irrelevant, without middle eastern oil, the world economy would come to a halt. How many millions would starve or freeze due to food and heat not being able to be distributed?

Security from weapons of mass destruction is the main issue. But one cannot just blindly ignore the reliance of modern societies on petroleum.

But let's talk more about what would happen if Iraq gets WMD: The United States would be the top target of any WMD equipped terrorist. That's why the US can't allow its interests to be secondary to some warm fuzzy UN wish list. A protestor in Belgium has little to fear from a nuclear armed Iraq. A citizen of New York or Washington has plenty to worry about. That's why 2/3rds of Americans support military action. They see the threat.

As for UN "support" let's remember who the UN security council is: USA, UK versus France, Russia, and China. In effect, "UN support" means Russia, France, and China. Two of those countries have significant oil deals with Saddam that create an economic reason for them to resist his removal.

As for casaulties - there were few civilian casaulties in the first gulf war (despite the propaganda some might say). There were few civilian casaulties in Afghanastan and a second gulf war would probably cause fewer deaths than the number of people who have died due to Saddam's policies in the past year.

The only reason why Saddam is even marginally cooperating now is because the US has made a credible use of force. Until then, there were no inspections at all. It is not sustainable for any country, even the US, to have to keep its military on high alert in order to get some brutal dictator to abide by UN resolutions.

At the end of the day, it comes down to this: Saddam's had 11 years to cooperate. He clearly has not. He continues to play games. And can the United States, let alone the world, risk this man getting weapons of mass destruction?

If people are really concerned about casaulties, then perhaps it is better to act now than wait until he has nuclear and biological weapons that he can use against his neighbors or supply to his terrorist friends.

The allies were faced with a similar situation in 1938 with Nazi Germany. Unfortunately, they chose appeasement and a few years later World War II was the result which led to the deaths of over 50 million people. Let us not make that mistake again.

--

Regardless of what position you take, there are two ways of corresponding with those who have opposite views. You can deride their views and principles or you can try to address their concerns.

Personally, I wish we lived in a world without such troubling problems.
23,339 views 58 replies
Reply #1 Top
Could someone itemize for me all the usage (proof required) of WMD by Saddam in the last 11 years.
Reply #2 Top
Frogboy, you have shown that you are wise enough to see both sides of a conflict, yet you are realistic in knowing that, as with any conflict, there cannot always be a peaceful resolution.

I'd like to just add a few thoughts of my own as well.

Most people hate politics and the games that to along with them. Unfortunately, politics are a necessity. And with politics sometimes comes lies or half-truths. Everyone in politics tries (whether knowingly or unknowingly) to be a Spin Doctor - to put a spin on something so that their side is taken or their point believed. In fact most people participate in some form of politics in their lifetime - most likely several times.

Think about it. When you're in the office or on the construction site or wherever your job may take you, there comes a time where you need to convince someone of something. You want to convince them that your side is the right side to be on. There's always several different ways to make your point. How you choose your words may involve some "spin" - you're giving the facts, but as you see them. Your side and the side of your opposition may both have a point, but it's the one who puts the best spin on a situation that will come out ahead.

Right now, both the US and Iraq, are putting spin on the arms situation. I would even say they are both being dishonest about one aspect or another. Each one wants you to think the other is the dishonest one. That's what politics are all about. The US believes that war, to remove Saddam, is the best resolution while Saddam says the US is trying to create a situation that isn't there.

War is certainly not the only option in a conflict. It's the one that most world leaders would want last. However, don't kid yourself and think that diplomacy is always a "peaceful" solution or without the loss of life. Dipolmacy can also involve embargos which can kill innocent people just as easily as a bomb or other weapons fire - sometimes easier.

As a final comment, I want to just say one thing about Americans and the sometimes anti-American sentiment that's out there:

Everyone in America, with the exception of Native Americans, came from somewhere else. America is the "melting pot" of the world. America has opportunities that other countries do not have because of the "open door" policy she has. No system is perfect. No country is perfect. There will always be conflicts. Just remember when you're bashing America that you have "family" there, too.
Reply #3 Top
Awesome write-up, I agree full-heartedly.

[rant]I wish other countries would help the United States out, it's getting old constantly center stage for pointing fingers and ridicule. China needs to deal with North Korea, it's their area, they're the local powerhouse, and the Middle Eastern countries need to quit playing victim, step up to the plate, and deal with Saddam themselves. Or course this wont happen, they'll continue pointing fingers at us, once in awhile releasing a peace plan copied off the American version and offering it up as their own, but it's a wonderful thought.

The United States and Britain make mistakes because were the only ones out there trying, you can’t fall down if you never get up. Don’t like our methods, do it yourselves for once.

Peace isn’t free; it's earned with hard work. Talk is nice, diplomacy is better, and both are totally useless against men/woman who care nothing for others.[end rant]
Reply #6 Top
Well, I'm an old hippy. I protested Viet-Nam, then was drafted and went to Nam. I HATE WAR. However, the United States has always helped other countries, even Iraq, at one time or another. None have jumped up to help us. I would give anything if people could just open there eyes, and see the world the way I see it. The WTC blown all to hell, and all of us Americans put a flag on something, and forgot about it a few days later. "Somebody" did the same thing in 1993. Still out there. How many times do you turn the other cheek until you can't turn anymore. It seems the whole damn world has something against the U.S. I went to WinXP, Binks, and he's complaining saying those arrogant Americans want to keep Microsoft Plus from the rest of the world. God man, get a grip. It's one damn company. And a stupid ass app. Who gives a shit. PLEASE. NO MORE WAR. PEACE. John Lennon "ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE". HIPPIE.
Reply #7 Top
By the way...What in the hell isWB4 alpha. And what planet are you from?
Reply #8 Top
I think the thing is that, people other than Americans are sick about hear this CRAP, and just didn't respond, or look twice at the stupid poll. this is a Skinning site, not a political site. One of the better things about the computer is that we don't (if we don't want to) have to constantly be subjected to "War TV" >
Reply #9 Top
>>I think the thing is that, people other than Americans are sick about hear this CRAP>and just didn't respond, or look twice at the stupid poll. this is a Skinning site, not a political site<<

Some consider this a community, they chat on the message boards about anything and everything with online friends, that includes touchy topics. Maybe this site means nothing to you, but your mistakin to say a poll like this doesnt belong
Reply #10 Top
One question for the anti-war activists. If someone hurt or molested your mother or sister with you standing beside them and was preparing for a second attack would you:

1. Let them do it again
2. Try real hard to talk them out of it
3. Kindly help your mother or sister up so they can take the second hit standing on their feet.
4. Try to talk your mom or sis into getting up and running and hope they don't follow or know where you live
5. Step between them and take the abuse yourself

6. Grab the a**hole and slap the living s**t out of him and turn him over to the authorities so he will understand the consequenses of assaulting your family.

Finally, things that don't effect us personally are easy to overlook and provide cause to condemn. BUT, let something effect you directly and all hell will break loose. Even if it's as small as a slite overbilling on one of your bills.
Reply #12 Top
I'll shut up after this, but this really upsets me. Knowing what it could be like.
Stand beside you're best friend and have someone blow his head off. That's war.
Walk down the road and see a charred piece of wood that turns out to be a baby. Thats war.
See people on fire, running and screaming for help, regardless of what side they're on. That's war.
These little games you play on this little box is. Games. No one gets hurt.Nothing happens. No one gets hurt. Watch The History Channel. See the bodies. Listen to Janis Joplin's Ball And Chain. At the end she say's "I can't understand why halve the world is crying, while the other halve of the world is crying to, and they just can't seem to get it together. As we found out on the bus, it's all the same fucking day, man". Please. some where, some how, somebody get a grip!!!!!!! I hate to think of lives just wasted. PEACE. HIPPIE.
Reply #13 Top
chuckyboy81070. I doubt very seriously that WB4 will bring peace. You'll just be whining for WB5.
Radial FX. Shoot the sonofabitch. When my house was broken into, the cop said we won't do anything about this. Best thing you can do is take care of it yourself. Ever since then. I DO! Sorry. Isaid I would shut up. Outta here. Peace. HIPPIE
Reply #15 Top
hippie, those things happen without war. Standing up for your rights in peacful protest, refusing to relenquish god givin rights as a living breathing individual, it can all be takin away from you simply because you have something someone else wants, your freedom. How many russians died at the hands of their own secret police under stalin, how many jews were killed at hitlers command because their heritage, how many children lost parents when the trade buildings came down? At some point those individuals who crave only power and care nothing for others must be stopped. I dont think anyone is for war, sane people that is, it's just something that has to be done. Nothing good comes without sacrifice.

you can argue whether iraq is really a threat, and our place in the middle east, but war in general, thats something bread by greed and human imperfection, it's a fact of life.
Reply #16 Top
This will be my last comment on this.
Sometimes the difference between reality and fantasy is hard to define. People in different cultures have different beliefs and views. I wish like most other people, that there could be WORLD peace. However, I believe that because of the different cultures and their particular beliefs this is really only a fantasy. If it weren't we could find a solution to everything from gang violence to divorce in our own country where the majority DO share approximatly the same beliefs. Unfortunatly in gang violence AND divorce it is very common for innocent people close to the situation to become victims.
As life is, this is a tragedy and most unfortunate. If SOME action isn't taken how will those of you that could be affected by another attack of the same strategy or another (Chemical or Biological) explain to YOUR loved ones why one of their family is missing. Would you tell them that these things just happen sometimes and let them find out as they mature that yes these things do happen...but also can possibly be prevented. No action almost assures that it will happen (in some way) again. Almost an invitation.
I know that a TRUE passivist turns the other cheek and would move, possibly to another state. Then buy a home next door to a child molester, turn the other cheek and move again and again and again and again UNTIL they can't move anymore and have to deal with reality. Knowing that control is only an illusion we can't predict or decide what our neighbor or another country can or will do, BUT we can influence that. To protect ourselves, our children and their children and keep them from having to move until they can't move anymore we either have to take some kind of action now OR if we don't feel a real responsibility to our future we can just leave it for them to deal with.
Reply #17 Top
i find it amusing that you actually think that i really believe that WB4 will bring world peace. i find it insulting that you say that i'll be whining for WB5. as someone that considers himself a hippy at heart, i sympathize with the hippies and what they stood for, but for god's sake get off my back, "maaaaaan!"
Reply #18 Top
Radial_FX-
When has Iraq been involved in any attack on the US?
Even the CIA released a report stating that there was and is no evidence to suggest a link between Iraq and any terrorist organisation...
Reply #19 Top
My, my, quite a warmongering crowd today.

/me hops into his spaceship and flies away from Terra Barbaria to find planets with the least shred of civilisation of some kind
Reply #20 Top
Maybe we need to be looking at how Saddam came to power (CIA supported) and weapons supplied by the now American Defense Secretary (the documents are now un-classified and make very worrying reading). Part of the agreement for weapons, training, and intelligence info was cheaper oil (per barrel)... it's all there to be read in your own time... Out of the 10 people making THE decisions in the documents 6 are still in positions of power within the goverment, have seats on the boards of oil companies, and have been the voice of war against Iraq. I can't help thinking that these people should never have been the voice of our country then and still are now.
Reply #21 Top
The WB4 quote was a joke i.e. "kidding around". Cursing is a sign of limited vocabulary in one's language Hippy and is not appreciated at this website. Frogboy after following everything that has been going on lately here I would just like to say thank you for being intelligent in such matters.
Reply #22 Top
The US supplied the Soviet Union a good percentage of the material it used during the cold war (particularly in the form of trucks and technology). Does that mean the west should have let the Soviets dominate the world?

It is good to see people generally being able to discuss these issues without dismissing those with opposing points of view with some one line patronizing remark (Well other than Craeonics anyway ).

If you want to change someone's mind -- to bring them to your point of view (as opposed to just ranting hysterically) the key is to look at their point of view.

If you're anti-war, for instance, you can think to yourself very very much that it's really just a big scam to get oil or that the US "made these guys" or whatever but those with opposing points of view don't buy that. Hence such assertions are meaningless.

Similarly, if you are in favor of action, you have to recognize that many who oppose you really do think that it's about oil or that there is skepticism that Saddam is really a big threat.

That's why you won't see too many opinions being changed. Neither side really tries to address the issues the other side brings up. They are, in essence, talking right past one another.
Reply #23 Top
Point 1.
The purpose of the UN inspectors should not be to hunt down WMD. Their job is to verify the disarming of Iraq. The Iraqis should be laying the missiles, shells, enriched uranium at the feet of the weapons inspectors, and saying "here it is, go ahead and destroy it."

Until such time as the UN is able to certify that all prohibited weapons have been removed from Iraq, they have not lived up to their end of the cease fire agreement that ended the Gulf War. This could and should be a trigger to allow for the resumption of hostilities.

Point 2.
IT IS ABOUT OIL, We did create / condone this guy. I see these sides of the argument as being true, and will not dispute them. The US created a monster. But just like Dr. Frankenstein it is time that we see the horror of what we unleashed on the world, and correct our mistake.

Point 3.
I notice that no one has mentioned Israel in the discussion. Israel is the major super power in the region. Iraq is the only country that rivels/ threatens Israeli superiority. The US/UK means to protect Israel's sovernignty by ensuring the no country in the region has the ability to destroy the state of Israel. Why does the US/UK mean to protect Israel? Don't know.
Reply #24 Top
Point 2: If the US wanted Iraq oil the easiest route would be to lift sanctions and get all the Iraqi oil we want.

Point 3: Israel is not capable of dealing with Saddam. It does not have the land army capability. I don't see how any of this has anything to do with Israel.
Reply #25 Top
>>Point 1.>Point 2.>Point3.<<
What’s Israel have to do with this? They’re better equipped, better trained, and would fight down to the last man, woman, and child. Sure, we'd probably go in to help them 'if' the need arose, but we'd do it for everyone, even when it’s not our business