Maiden666

Join Date 12/2008

+62

How is the planetary research output (number of flasks) calculated?

Hi all,

I´m just playing an all-lab strat with slider set to 0/0/100, and having difficulty on deciding if I should add a RCC or a Discovery Sphere over existing planetary structures. If I would know exactly how the flasks for each planets are calculated this would be a great help. I´ve tried searching the forum/wiki - but everything that is said just doesn´t add up to the numbers my game shows me - or I just calculate them wrong.

Maybe someone could forward me a link, or take the numbers above to grant an example.

Political Party: Technologist (+20%)

Racial Bonus: +45% [Altarians have a +25% fix & +20% chosen in points]

Nano Recorders: +10%

1 Mine: +5%

In "Stats & Graphs" the research bonus is shown as "+91%"

I have 5 research treaties, 4 with minor races, and 1 with a major that has an research output of 67.

The planetary research bonus is +150% [Tech capital & OmegaResearchCenter]

The planets base production is 158tp.

The planets research output is shown as 1344 flasks.

Can these 1344 flasks be calculated from the infos given above - and how would be the correct formula for that?

Any help will be greatly anticipated.

Maiden

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Hi!

The calculation should be simple: base production * buildings-on-planets bonuses * "outside" bonuses. The main problem is: the numbers you've presented just don't multiply up:

158 base output * 2.50 (tech cap + omega) * 1,91 (overall bonus) = 754

Are you sure you dont have on the planet also the Research Coordination Center, and/or two or more econ starbases with production support modules near, or a really big research bonus from colonization event?

BR, Iztok

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Maiden666

Join Date 12/2008

+62

Iztok, ty for your time.

Actually no - there are no Econ SB on the whole map present.

I´ve backchecked the planetary bonuses (from colonization) - there is/are none. [The planet with the 1344 flasks output IS the starting planet - so there wasn't any "colonization"]

I don´t have the RCC built. But even if I had - the 25% of it won´t make 1344 out of 754.

However, I'm having trouble on ALL my worlds to calculate the research output. Somehow the number of flasks is always higher as it should be. I did never even come close to it. So the thought I had was - the current game is bugged.

So I started a new one. Same problem. Right off the start!

I re-loaded old games. Again.

So I thought my installation is damaged. But Impulse veryfied it´s all okay. [btw, the numbers shown above are from Dark Avatar v2.01]

I started some games on DL - same problem. I actually have 2 installations of DL - tried both, problem persists.

But as soon as I only build a single EconSB to that planet and use one constructor to give +5% bonus - the number of flasks are shown as 26. But 24rp*1*1.05 = 25,2. Should be 25.

Furthermore, if I only choose Technologists = 20% racial bonus, then the number of flasks shown on the Capitol is also wrong - right from start. As soon as there are any %-enhancing bonuses - such as racial, Political Party, Planetary or SB - this formula won´t work correctly in ANY of my games.

If you want, I can host some screenshot of all the in-game info, at your leisure. However, if you have DA v2.01 on your system I´d be overtly interested if that phenomenon occurs there [or on any other readers'...] too.

Further, as said I play as Altarians - but I tried the other races as well - and the problem is there exactly the same.

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Hi!

Well, there are only a couple of things I can think off, that would "infect" the output you're seeing:

1) if it is the only planet you have, then maybe the "flasks" from research treaties are added to planetary output. You can check that by canceling treaties and checking the result.

2) Maybe the hidden research bonus, that players got with higher difficilty levels, is finally shown. IIRC from an old post about two years ago by Mumblefratz, the bonus for suicidal game was ~60%.

For further research you can post yor save game on the net and provide the link. I don't have the game installed anywhere, but have older versions of it in archive at home, and can also install it form Impulse.

BR, Iztok

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Maiden666

Join Date 12/2008

+62

Well, the problem persists on ALL the worlds on this map. Actually - on ALL maps/games I start with Techbonuses - even on day one where there hardly could be any treaties. But just as you mention it - how are Research treaties actually incorporated into the game? Because that might be another factor, and I really really hope at this point that the difference is NOT based on varying multiple factors - because that would make it pretty hard to find out how the equation could finally be solved.

I found this from SoleSoul: (here: https://forums.galciv2.com/327915)

So why are you focusing on research so much? Well, for one, you need to get things researched, and the AI has massive bonuses (Maso through Suicidal) that most would say you can't hope to compete with (and most of the time they're right). However, on Painful through Suicidal (and particularly beginning with Maso and up), there is a hidden bonus conferred on the player to research, when they have a research bonus. Whether it is selected before the game, from government, researched, mined via starbases, or a trade good, it still counts. I seem to have lost my table showing the values for the different difficulties, but I remember Suicidal as being a 2.64. That is, if you have a +40% bonus (20% customization and 20% technologists), your research production will have a bonus of +105.6%. This means rather than having 140 research from 100 research production you will have 205 (the .6 is truncated), which is approximately a 47% increase.

But still doesn´t add up. Oh no, seems gotta find out myself through experimenting. Do we have any Mathematician currently in forum - I need help!

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WIllythemailboy

Join Date 03/2006

+70

I gave up on my effort to solve the influence generation equasion for the same reason. There are simply too many interlocking variables to make it easily solvable and I don't feel like putting that much effort into trying to control a dozen different variables to come up with a equasion.

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Quoting Maiden666,

reply 4

I need help!

For what it't worth. The difficulty level is a definitive bonus.

Maiden, to arrive at the point in your game to test...is more than I can endure, or hope to replicate. And I'm no matematician. It's my parents fault.

I not could agree more with SS' position on research.

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Maiden666

Join Date 12/2008

+62

Willy, you may be right. It seems that the bonus applied to research is getting greater as the other %-bonuses [racial, planetary, SB etc] are getting greater - but the relation to it is not proportional nor based on a single x²-factor...

However, there is a non-optimal, non-accurate solution. One can reverse the maths by taking the research output into the equation, and putting this into relation to the planetary rp-output, and all the %-appliers - and then get a factor. Like Iztok already wrote:

158 base output * 2.50 (tech cap + omega) * 1,91 (overall bonus) = 754. Which is the output without hidden-bonus. The real output is 1344, so the hidden factor [in this example] is 1344/754=~1.78 or 78%.

This factor could in turn be used to make the other calculations [concerning the RCC] upwards: 158*2.75*1.91*1.78= 1477

or the "Discovery Sphere": 176*2.50*1.91*1.78 = 1495

However, there is a calculation-error of an est. ~5% therein - esp. when one of the %-bonuses change then the hidden-bonus factor will also change immediately.

Therefore, one does need to calculate this factor everytime again once the &-bonuses change, and if one needs the most accurancy then it´ll be necessary to calculate for every planet everytime, as there is still an [probably neglectable] error of ~0.2 therein.

In important games I currently do so, but it is a drag, to be honest, one needs to do 2*the calculation. Good to have a calculator around, and yes, there are more important things as school esp. when one is young and the worlds is still new

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Base: 158
Buildings: 150% (omega & DA tech capital)
Racial: 91% * 2.64 (Suicidal modifier) = 240(.24)%

158 * 2.5 * 3.4 = 1343
158 * 2.5 * 3.4024 = 1343.948

It seems I may have been incorrect about it truncating.

-Research treaties don't show up on individual planets

Quoting Maiden666,

reply 2

The only time when the number of flasks equates to your formula is - when there is no racial bonus, no "outside" bonus, and no planetary bonus. In such a game, the Capitol who has an output of 24rp *1*1 = 24 flasks.

But as soon as I only build a single EconSB to that planet and use one constructor to give +5% bonus - the number of flasks are shown as 26. But 24rp*1*1.05 = 25,2. Should be 25.

Furthermore, if I only choose Technologists = 20% racial bonus, then the number of flasks shown on the Capitol is also wrong - right from start. As soon as there are any %-enhancing bonuses - such as racial, Political Party, Planetary or SB - this formula won´t work correctly in ANY of my games.

This is because all of those bonuses are "racial", and the difficulty bonus modifies the "racial" bonus.

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Maiden666

Join Date 12/2008

+62

Holy Hell!

........

The correct formula then should be:

f = rp * [ pb/100 + 1 ] * [ rb/100 * 2,64 + 1 ]

where

f=flasks; rp=research production (base production); pb=planetary bonus; rb=racial bonus.

Also I couldn´t confirm this with another racial-bonus, will see next game....

Do you know how the other difficulty-modifiers are?

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Quoting Maiden666,

reply 9

But there is still an error of ~ 0.1%-0.5% therein, I can't solve. Works with no bonuses pretty fine, also with 100% planetary bonus (TechCap), but with only 25% (RCC) the number of flasks is over-calculated, 1 or 2 flasks too much in a length of ~1000 flasks.

Also I couldn´t confirm this with another racial-bonus, will see next game....

Do you know how the other difficulty-modifiers are?

The game has rounding errors...I'm not sure WHY, exactly-the vast majority of them have been crushed-but it's the little things that slip through the cracks. And there's also not knowing whether it's actually truncated...

The rounding errors are particularly obvious (again, not sure why) when your base research is lower than...50 or 60, if memory serves...but the formula still works.

You'll confirm it I've confirmed it with...well, perhaps not thousands, but at least several hundred games.

I don't remember, but I can run the numbers. Haven't played GC2 since June...it's time, eh?

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