Counter Strategies for Oak

sigils are your best friend and ally, also a wand of speed is helpful for catching speedy little devils.

im an oak enthusiast aswell and my best friend is the "Cloak of Night" especially since that new guy "demon assasin" is around 

give cloak of night a try...i think its  a great addition to oak´s skills....

counter oak than get its natural enemy....a chain saw.

sigils are great.  The one thing that I've found really gives Oak the advantage is massive levels.  You already say you play cautiously until lvl 8, so if you don't really plan to engage people before lvl 8, don't go to the store before lvl 8.  I've posted in other areas on how to play the mana side on cataract.. basically so you maximize your leveling.  In a good game (even with pro's on both sides) I can end up 3-4 levels ahead of everyone else.  Of course, that can get messed around a little bit and I might just end up a level or 2 ahead, or if I die a couple times, that can drop to just being even.. at that point the game becomes much harder.

Basically, in a 2v2 or 3v3 situation on cataract (just sticking to the most popular map I guess) you need to be solo on the mana side.  Your entire job is to get the mana flag if there isn't an enemy dg, kill the creeps, and get the xp flag every single time the enemy gets it.  So, you run up, get xp flag from the start (maybe wait for them to finish capping it.. if they stick around a loonnng time obv. leave).. then go get mana flag and kill those creeps.  Usually someone else will be there.. maybe harrass them a little bit, but don't press it.  By the time you finish those creeps, the xp flag should be in enemy hands again.. go get it AFTER you kill all the creeps.  Generally you will be trading flag caps with the enemy opposite you.. so while you're off capping the xp flag, they're taking mana and vice versa.  The main point here is.. don't miss creep waves, and don't go shopping until you can buy your first couple items (I usually wait so that I have 3450 when I hit the shop... a vlemish, plenor (or boots depending) and a teleport scroll).  After this, you should ALWAYS have a tp to help gank people.. but don't go wasting them.  You're still on leveling up duty.. lvl 10 you can kill an entire wave of creeps + priests in one surge... you hit this and you level that much faster.. try to be everywhere at once.  Since you were the solo for the team, you need to be the playmaker.. you teleport in to save an almost dying teammate after the enemy over pursues slightly so you get a guaranteed kill / save.  You don't buy the early cit upgrades, you buy the later ones.  You need to use your early advantage to dominate midgame for your team.

So.. get a level advantage.  It's possible even against those 800 games 80% ppl.  You just have to be perfect at it.  Oh, and don't think you're giving up warscore by trading flags.. your team should always have the fort flag, so at all times you have 2 flags while your opp. has 1, or you have 1 flag while the other 2 are neutral.. either way you should be ahead on ws.  No need to caplock the middle.. waste of gold.. just trade flags, faster leveling.  If they start locking middle.. just wait it out and get it afterwards.

I do get Wand of Speed if I can, but it is lower on my priority list. I don't use Sigils enough.

@ RAWWRRR

Yeah, that is basically how I do it. I was in a 2 on 2 the other day (prison) and my teammate was giving me crap for not helping him in the pointless fights-feints that happen -> lvl 5 (Everyone had 500 plus games except me, so no one was going to let themselves get killed.) So while they were screwing around, I was leveling and 15 minutes later I was "annhilation" and the game was pretty much over.

Yeah, some people don't appreciate that if you let Oak or Erebus pour his gold into himself early, that can be GG, and he will get the expensive upgrades later. I usually end up buying cats AND giants.

All these are helpful tips, but I was actually looking to see if people had some DG specific, or build specific strategies that they employed.

For example, I was facing a ice TB who had maxed his Freeze early. So I pretty much gave up on minions and went all Penitence. But that one is easy and obvious.

The DGs I have the most trouble with are Minion LE (surprise), Beasts with 7k+ Hp (surprise) and annoying as hell Mine-Regulus. What are people doing against these?

Is the parasite egg worth it? I always mean to use it but by the time I can afford it it is GG either way. Should I get that earlier? And how do these Beasts have so many Hps? Is it just standard equip, BotF and Sigil? Or am I missing something? Why is Regulus so annoying? (Well I know why, but why does it have to be that way? Why? Why? : )  )

I have less trouble with (unless the player is really good) Tower Rook and (heavy shield) QoT. I tend to not give up much ground to them, but they are a pain to kill when you want to.

none of those people pose a problem if you have the level advantage.  With all the mana, I'm constantly spamming penitence on enemies and surging the creeps.  Against the big ole beast, just make sure you have a sigil and you lure him somewhere he shouldn't be.. bring in a teammate + maybe pop a sigil and voila.. dead beast.  Regulus, just hit him w/ penitence and avoid his mines.. 3-4 penitences and he's running scared.. several ways to avoid mines, figure out where he throws them and then avoid them.. more of a trial and error thing I guess.  As for minion erabus.. the guy is super weak.. but his minions are strong.  Ignore the minions, go straight for the kill.  Ya sure he can take down all your towers and you can't do anything (well.. with the change to HoB you can do more but ya), but engage him dg vs dg and he's a goner.  Just make sure you have a teammate ready to pick him up after he batswarms away from you (or lvl 10 pen + surge + wand of speed and you should catch him after a batswarm easy).

I almost never change my build around.  I go p1, s1, dj1, p2, sof1, s2, p3, s3, save, p4 + sof2, dj2, dj3, dj4, save, rally + sof3, s4, s5, sp1, sp2, sp3

Just gotta spam a lot and level level level

@ RAAWWRRRR

Yeah. It's been a while since I tried a straight assassin build. It never worked for me, but that was also when I was a noob. I'll give it another shot.

@ RAWRRRR

Knew you were ranked high RAWRRRR. Didn't realize it was 4. Will take your advice very seriously. Thanks for helping the little guys out.

Coz rankings mean anything.

He also makes a mistake. Penitance should never be taken first level. Always Shield.

Bad,

I play Oak most of the time, he's my favorite demi by far.

One thing i saw in your build is that you just list it up to level 20 and don't provide specific upgrade paths.  To be able to look at how you build your oak we'll need to know what skills you get and when you get them.

RawrrrrrrRrRrRRRrrrs strategy is a good one, but as oak you will most likely be on the health flag in a 3v3... unless your teammates are (sedna or qot) AND (rook or UB).

Always get monks first, it also doesnt hurt to grab a totem of revlation for the site distance and it's cheap.

TO agree with rawrr here, going to the citadel means you aren't gaining gold and xp as fast as you could be.  Make sure you go as few times as possible.  Don't ever leave a tower unguarded and make sure that if you are engaged in battle and you think you are going to lose the 1v1 fight, back off early so you dont have to return to the citadel.  it is better to farm creeps and regain the flags than to run back.

As far as armor I pefer to get (in order): Banded - scale - vlemish - nimoths - plenor - bishops - hauberk* - L4 siege - groffling - narmoths*

Artificts: mage slayer* - girdle of the giants* (this is great with narmoths and or mage slayer.... it's a helluva lot of fun lol), bulwark*

*deontes rarely or situational dependant.

After your first visit to the citadel always keep a teleport scroll on hand.  Flag locks help too.  Sigils are also your friend, be sure to keep one on hand as much as possilbe.  Universal gadgets are just plain fun too.

My preferred build is a hybrid:

Favor item:  Blood of the fallen

1. Shield 1
2. Pen 1 (unless im a bit low on health then i will get DJ 1)
   
3. divine justice 1
4. Pen 2 (chances are you are mana weak until this level or level 5 which is when you can afford vlemish + banded etc)
   
5. SOF
   
6. Shield 2
7. Shield 3
   
8. Pen 3
9. hold
10. Pen 4 SOF 2
11. soul power 1
12. Soul ward 1 (spirits)
    
13. spirit 2
    
14. spirit 3 (most games are over by now)
15. sof 3
16. spirit 4 (i find that spirit 5 is a bit of a waste)
    
17. Divine justice and then whatever
    

Here is my preferred minion build:

Favor items:  Ring of divine might, swift anklet, horn of battle (although i prefer the other two)

Not good against TB or ooze ub.

(i will get hauberk earlier for this build, and if i get ring of divine might i will get boots of speed)

1. shield
   
2. soul ward 1
3. Divine Justice 1
4. Spirits 2
5. SOF
6. Pen 1
7. spirit 3
8. soul power 1 (or shield 2)
   
9. hold (or shield 3)
   
10. SOF + spirits 4
11. Shield 2
    
12. Shield 3
13. DJ 2
14. DJ 3 (most games are over by now)
    
15. SOF
16. pen2+ .... 

My all time favorite shits & giggles build gets rid of shield altogether, and gets DJ 1, soul power 1, pen 3, spirits 3 & sof II in the first 10 levels.  However this is not a "teamplay" build and getting rid of shield essentially eliminates escaping bad situations for you and your teammates.

I know you are looking for more specific answers to your questions so here is what i have found:

Against a tower rook - i find the minion build most successfull.  Chances are the tower rook is in a creep lane, gather your minions, plant a ward in the lane, wait for a creep wave to get somewhat close to replenish the spirits that are about to die,  send your minions to the rook first then follow up with yourself & surge of faith, the minions will take most of the aggro from the towers.  Use the penitence for interrupting any teleports or slams. Hit a sigil when necessary, shield + port at the last second.  (be wary of any other demi's porting in, especially if they have interrupts)

Against an ice TB the hybrid build is most effective.  Wand of speed also helps get you out of the firing zone, although it is useless when already slowed.  Shield, used offensively in this case, works well too.  Just be careful not to hit shield when you are already frozen or the cool down time will screw you up.  I hate this new influx of ice TB's.  Fire TB's aren't nearly as much of a problem.  The biggest thing here is never go against 2 demis when you are by yourself, especially against a tank + ice TB, you'll just get frozen and dead.

Against a minion erebus the hybrid build is most effective.  Please note that stacking armor is essential so armor of vengeance can be usefuly until you can trade up to groffling and beyond.  Like rawr said the minion LE is squishier but you'll still have a hard time catching him and killing him, especially if he has a point in pist and batswarm.  Surge of Faith helps clear out those minions.

Yes the parasite egg can be worth it, perhaps moreso than armor of vengeance, unless you have a pist erebus and you cant hit him.

Mine regulus, use your minions to run over the mines.  Then there are no mines to worry about.  You could also plant that totem of revleation.  A minion oak is excellent against the mine reg, especially if you have some sort of speed enhancement (swift anklet, boots etc.)  Regulus is designed to be annoying and they were quite successful in that design lol. 

Yes the UB is stacking standard health items (the most cost effective way to stay alive in this game) and probaby using a sigil as well. The best way to go against this is to use the hybrid build & stack health and keep a sigil on you as well.  You can also use shield as an offensive maneuver but that will eliminate your escape plan so be sure that you know you will win the fight.

The bottom line is that you will most likely equally hate all of the other demigods.  GPG did a helluva job balancing this game to make all of your enemies suck for different reasons.  ice tb, a sedna with anti healing, qot's shield, tower rooks, slam rooks (with a stunner close by), UB in general, mine reg, snipe reg, erebus - everything about him.  If i had to pick the one i like the least though, going up against an erebus is a pain in the ass lol.

If there is one piece of advice i can give always run from a 2v1 situation where both enemies have full health.  If one is really really low you might be able to take him out before you shield port.  WHat happens in a 2v1 if you go against them, even if you dont die, your health will get knocked down too much and you will have to return to the citadel, then your teammate that is returning from the citadel is in a 2v1 situaiton.  Just hang back, guard a tower.  If they approach you at the tower dance with them a bit but try to keep from having to return to the citadel. 

I hope that helps!

j

@ Jongalt

Yes that was informative. I didn't list my build order because I didn't want this to be a build discussion, but rather about specifc counters. I play a very similar Oak to you in some ways. I actually used to play that "favorite" build of yours a lot, maxing spirits and penitence by ten, and if you are playing in an evenly matched game and you make no mistakes you can get a stupid amount of kills. But you die very easily, and better players were creaming me.

I usually go like this: Spirits, DJ, SP, PEN, SoF Shld, Shld, Shld, something, Sof

It is unconvential but I see it like this: Whatever I get at one, I can only cast once or twice anyway, and my mana regen is really slow. So I'd rather have spirits till I can spam penitence, or know I will always have enough for shield when I need it. Plus, Shld just pisses me off till I have Lvl III. I have regularly beat back Oaks with Shield- Penitence through level 3, when I am focusing on monks and spirits. For the same reason, I get the passive skills right away. I have no mana at this point, so why load up on skills I can't use? Once I have Shld III, I start piling into Penitence and Spirits and start going for kills, or at least forcing retreats

actually.. I think I'd disagree here in some cases.  I mean.. sure don't run straight into it.. but generally if you beat on someone, someone else will come to help them.  If you can make them waste all their mana trying to kill you after you forced a teleport.. you're distracting 2 ppl who have no chance of killing you.  They waste a teleport, time, and ideally a good chunk of mana / hp so they have to go back after you finish.  Your other teammate(s) can focus freely on something else while you distract multiple enemies at the cost of 1 (you).  I love forcing 2 people to deal with me only to escape them by shield porting out.

i.e. I run for a portal and start fighting off 1 guy.. he calls his friend(s) bcuz he can't handle me bcuz I'm a couple levels up.  They both take me on, I get as low as I can, shield and leave while in the meantime, my teammate is capping the portal on the other side with no resistance.

As for polynomial.. pfft.. IT DOESN'T FUCKIN MATTER I DON'T FIGHT UNTIL LVL 7.  Just for you I'll change my build to save, save, save, save, sof (still use it to creep), save, s1+s2+p1+p2+p3+dj1, s3, etc etc.  It'll end up as the same thing.  Besides.. this has been argued in countless other threads.  Personally, the only time I fight b4 lvl 2 is at the xp flag.. and only if my other teammates are with me.. and we aren't going to take that fight if it's a bad one... sooo what's better - 3 ppl getting the added benefit of penitence (i.e. stunning a fireball, slowing down the tb so he can't run away, dealing 200 dmg, and increasing 3 people's dmg on him) or a teammate getting a 3 second shield?  One of them gets you a kill, the other doesn't do anything because I won't be getting into a stupid fight before lvl 2.  If my other 2 teammates decide to engage 3 ppl in the middle in a battle we will surely lose, I will watch them die or almost die as I go grab the mana flag, then berate them for doing something they shouldn't have done in the first place.

Well, they don't mean EVERYTHING, but they do mean something. Since I'm still stuck in the 36Ks, I'll probably pay attention to anything anyone in the top 1,000 says. Doesn't mean they are right, but it makes it worth considering. At the same time, I've gotten great advice from people of my rank as well.

I can tell you that the good Oaks I fear the most have shield and cloak of the night.

They give a little up at the start of the match by not taking blood of the fallen, but make up for it with the ability to super gank later on.

All I'm saying is three things. Shield 1 first. Then Penitence or whatever you want. And Oak loves me the most.

And you're right. You shouldn't be getting into stupid fights before level 2. That's why you don't need Penitence. If you're focused on gettings kills then you are completely missing something about this game.

As as for rankings, given the time and same people, anyone can get super high ranked. I've done it, dozens other have too.

Yea cloak is a good one, i forgot to add that to my list.  I still prefer the staying power of blood though. 

Rawrr good point, keeping two enemies focused on one 1 person definitely provides a map advantage.  Although what typically happens is that after you port back to base they take out the tower.  Whereas playing conservatively and hanging out by the tower, maybe dancing a little bit and killing creep waves, will keep the tower from going down. 

Unfortunatley i've had to use shield on teammates a couple of times at level 1, more for peeling off chasing demi's as my guy flees. I think you know some of these people rawr   99% of the time you are only level 1 for a minute or 2 so it's pretty much a moot point.

@ Bad

Yea that's the problem with the S & G build, it doesnt work so well against better players.

My experience has shown that spirits are great in general and specifically at levels 1-4 in a 1v1 oak situation for the reasons you mentioned.  I've found that levels 5-10 the assassin oak typically pushes back the spirit oak in a 1v1 so it's a tradeoff.

Anyways, i posted the builds earlier because each one helps counter the other demi's that you were talking about.

Also, i heard a rumor that stats are being reset next week.

j

Personnally with Oak i use 2 helmets(plenor+vlemish), boots of speed, nimoth armor, narmoth's ring and bishop. If the game lenght long enought i go for some artifact weapon. You need at least 1 sigil. With 2 helmet u have a lot or mana and u can stand a lot during a battle. You need to max peni, shield lvl 4, max SoF, 3 DJ, max Soul Power, 2 warps and 1 last stand. I take last stand only at lvl 20...in any case or at this time i die fast. With this build u will get lot of atk speed, damage, mana, etc. I usually use Blood of the fallen with my oak.

This is my build with Oak

1. Peni I

2. Shield I

3. Divine Justine I

4. Peni II

5. Surge of Faith I

6. Shield II

7. Peni III

8. Shield III

9. save

10. Peni IV and Surge of Faith II

11. Divine Justice II

12. Divine Justice III

13. Shield IV

14. Soul Power I

15. Surge of Faith III

16. Soul Power II

17. Soul Power III

18. Warp I

19. Warp II

20. Last Stand I

I had never really played oak other than my first few single player games and I'm finding this thread very useful. I've messed around with him a bit more and I'm liking the way he plays, he's got a bit more punch and staying power than I really gave him credit for and I don't think I ever really understood how valuable both shield and penitence are.

@ Quest GAV

Yeah Oak is good. He doesn't dominate the battlefield the way LE or UB can, but he does in a quieter way. Shield/port is probably the best combo in the game. If you die after level 7, you screwed up.

Personally I don't like Rally either, but that's more subjective.

Isn't the point of Rally the +25% attack speed? It's another 100 dps...