[e digicons]:thumbsup:[/e]  [e digicons]:thumbsup:[/e] [e digicons]:thumbsup:[/e] [e digicons]:thumbsup:[/e] [e digicons]:thumbsup:[/e] [e digicons]:thumbsup:[/e] [e digicons]:thumbsup:[/e] [e digicons]:thumbsup:[/e] [e digicons]:thumbsup:[/e] i for one 100% agree with you on that

I don't think 'uninformed' opinion is worth the breath...whether it be for OR against.

No matter what kudos is placed upon the 'art of screenshotting' it is merely representational at best and is NOT a skin.

For all the it's-great-but-I-didn't-try-it ot it-sucks-big-time-but-I-didn't-try-it comments, for all THEY know the skin might even be a total dud...as in DOES NOT WORK.

Sure...after a decade of looking at Windowblind skins [for example] I can get a pretty good idea that... IF I DOWNLOAD IT/TRY IT it will not be 'my cup of tea'...but that is pure personal preference and has no bearing on its potential appeal/popularity [or disfavour]..

I would never have the effrontery to claim it to be good/crap/not Master standard  UNLESS I had at LEAST given it [and the Skinner] the benefit of the doubt and tested it first.

That sort of process has exactly ZERO to do with 'free speech'...but it has shit-loads to do with common courtesy and mutual respect.

ahh yes, but there are 6 billion other opinions and ways of doing things. What you may or may not do has zero bearing on what the next guy or girl may.. or may not.

you mean what I myself was not afforded? [see beggining of post and corresponding link]

Semantics. [e digicons][/e]

Does anyone have anything sensible to say regarding the extensive amount of the post that dealt with the main issue?

Did any Masters comment? This wasn't anything to do with Masters.. this was about allcomers.

and..

You have yet to weigh in on the part of the post that does pertain.. to me. Is it somehow ok for admin to participate in a drive by? It wasn't the first time.

Not a very good example was it.

The post was intended to put forth some suggestions and ideas about how to imporve the site, how to improve the work of both up and coming skinners and seasoned ones.

Do you honestly think after staying here day in , day out, nights too for the past 4 years helping in anyway I could that I would make a post like this without sincerely being interested in the betterment of the site for all?

Cmon.

Is anyone in the least interested in this or shall we just all bash each others heads in?

Fine, damage control implemented, you have no opinion on that. I didnt expect it. I'll live.

Now, on with the debate eh.

[e digicons]:sun:[/e]

Knew that was coming... Mod.. exuuuse me [e digicons][/e]

lol... Public opinion... should I go back and ammned?

Should I just get on IRC? [e digicons]:w00t:[/e]

 I think everyone else is sleeping [e digicons]|-)[/e]

I maybe way off center here because comments on a skinners work do provide at times usefull feedback. 

Unfortunately though comments of the nature that have happened recently don't serve any other purpose but to feed others to do nothing but copy and pile on.  Comments and Ratings have been a discussion in the forums numerous times in the past five years of my being a member of the community. [e digicons]:-"[/e]

So what to do?  Do away with comments and ratings completely?  That doens't sound like much of a fix or something that helps a community. 

A lot of skinners have been posting threads about a WIP (Work in Progress) where they openly ask for comments.  Not sure how the comments are going there.  Should every skinner have to do a WIP thread?  That doesn't sound like a fix either.

Again, do away with comments?  I don't like that idea. 

Why do the comments have to be public?  It seems that is the major problem right now, public comments.  Change the comments system to where you can still leave one but they go to the skinner as a PM and others don't get to read them.  Probably could be done, anyone ready to ask Stardock to make that change?  I don't think we will get any volunteers for that.

So what options are we left with?  

We could just learn to live with the opinions and comments of others.  Yes, some folks can really be rude and down right mean.  As they say in the real world, that's life.

I didn't touch on the free speech issue, why, well folks at times seem to use that way too much.  We all do have the right to free speech, our opinions and the freedom to comment when asked, but there is a line there that at times gets ignored and stepped over.  Free speech does not and was never meant to allow anyone to be rude, mean, inpolite or just down right nasty. 

So what's the answer, we could all, myself included, try to be more caring and civilized when commenting, yeah, like that is ever going to happen. [e digicons]:O[/e]

I just remembered one other thing about free speech, it has and will continue to allow folks to open thier mouth and remove all doubt as to thier intelligence.  That's a joke son, laugh it up. [e digicons]:rofl:[/e]

This reply was not addreseed at anyone and is just my take on what has happen in the past couple of days. 

Yes it was sorta, actually its more for press than anything and its a way for me to answer questions or concerns from members that might be potential buyers. I didnt care then and I didn't care up until the minute the same person said

" I don't comment on the master skins I don't try or from the screen shot.  That would be stupid.  How can I say something  about something I haven't tried.  So if you people haven't tried it, how can one comment on it and be truthful about it?  You can't.  So why would one do it.  To sound big?  Be destructive?  Run someone down in the eyes of the people?  Or all the above? "

It still doesnt bother me to be slammed, never has really, I can be defensive just like everyone else, explain why I did something one way instead of perhaps how they may have liked it. In the end although it toughened me up in the good old days, Im totally over being affected by a negative comment from anyone at any status. I will continue to post WIP's and skins regardless of anything that is said in any thread.

The blatent contradiction coming from staff was my bone of contention.

Agreed. [e digicons]k6[/e]

The Advanced critique idea was more for the skinners that don't take critique well.. an opt out.. if nothing else but the broader point is no one should have to wrry about being honest or having to explain why they do or dont like something for fear of community reprisal.

I knew you were gonna say that [e digicons][/e]

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that being verbally assualted in my 'formative years' probably did more to help me than hurt me. I was determined not to give anyone any reason to say anything negative. Many years later, I still get the odd shitty comment, but for the most part, because of my extended efforts, in most part due to negative comments..it has paid off. 

Rarely have I had anyone suggest things, compliment, try to guide and it ever led to any significant improvement.

Like IR said, hop over to Neowin.net and check out the WB section, http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showforum=62

They go to the extreme opposites, and it is where I first started posting. I would like to see balanced critique.

Not heavy handed and not candy coated.

OK, so what this is all about is a specific query about the quotes listed in comment #105 made by sydneysiders, quotes coming from a specific Moderator [Wom]?

That's not a 'general debate'.  It sounds more akin to something expected to be confined to a Personal Message somewhere.

What part of this is 'not intended to cause division'?

I have an opinion on the quotes....and it ties in with all those GENERALITIES I've been pointing this thread to - and that is - try before you comment.  If a Mod tries a skin...and comments about how he liked it then where is the issue?  If that same Mod suggests all should try before they comment where is the controversy/hypocrisy?

While we are in specifics, I typically use skins [WB] like Antares and Avenger, why?

Because they do NOT look like a default MS look [or even vaguelly similar to one].

It's something I got [understood] about skinning in general and Windowblinds in particular...the ability/opportunity to be DIFFERENT.  Heck, many of my skins had the buttons top-left....for no other reason than WB WOULD LET ME do so.

I see a lot of [what they like to call] "minimalist" skins these days [a better word is 'conservative' or 'safe'], possibly prompted by this desire to be commercially popular.

You said [via PM] that you're gonna be rocking our socks with some new skins now you have your new machine, etc.... here's hoping they'll be as wild and intriguing as they certainly will be well-constructed/executed...

Aside from the fact it's about the third time in a week I have agreed with Jafo....

As someone who 'skins' or does 'graphics' or whatever......

I (meaning myself...I can't speak for everyone) hold you guys...the 'Masters' in pretty high regard. The Mods and Admins as well. AND....quite a few out there that don't have the afore mentioned titles but have accomplished as much. Unfortunately, for me (Myself again) that means I expect more...better from you/them. That includes critiques and comments. I value your opinions. That makes me (Myself again) vunerable to being crushed should someone like you/them just zip in and say "This isn't worth the time to download' or something like that. I can imagine that it is possible for an equal to feel the same way. I wouldn't even consider a negative comment if I had not downloaded it and tested it, tried it, etc.

Of a more personal opinion, I HAVE seen a lot of screenshots that did NOT do something justice and vice-versa. Maybe my eyes are worse than everyone elses, I don't know.

Now, it's my turn to really put my foot in it..I think some of what has recently transpired was sexist. On one hand, a lot of folks with good intentions trying to defend a female skinner and on the other, some folks using the fact it was a female skinner just to see what kind of response they could provoke. (I'm trying to decide if I should leave this or not. I'm leaving it.)