The thing is game is balanced by race.Meaning the vas ability to handle anti heavy is weaker then other races but is made up for with its lrf and phase missiles.They are best at tasking out single targets and caps.If we make all ships balance out by supply and dps and hull to be the same then the races will all be the same with a different look.However the prob with the current state imo is early game as vas skirm dps is to weak to fend off lf+scout rush.

ANyone ever check the balance to cost for dps instead of supply.The disciple is 56 cred per dps based on 8 dps.The cobalt is 55 based on 10 dps and the skirm is 73 based on 10.5 dps.Cost is based on 5 to 1 ratio for metal.So to field a fleet with equal dps you have to spend considerable more resources to do it.However a skilled vas will control more neutrals and 1 metal a sec more than your enemy is like having a 4-5 cred second better eco.Nuetrals make vas difficult to balance and make them much more of a wild card to play.On a large map it can be easy to have 10-15 metal income from neutrals floating around.10 metal a sec is like 40-50 creds a sec.

The problem is that Vasari aren't simply weaker, they're right out of the ballpark.  As has already been mentioned, even with Raging Amish's suggestion of 12.5 dps (which I support) they would still be the worst dps for your money as far as light frigates go.  Many have noted their dps per cost is so low that even after accounting for their damage-type bonus against heavy you're still almost better off just using assailants. 

So basically you're saying that Vasari's strength from neutrals compensates for its weakness in light frigates?  The problem is two-fold.  First, there are no assurances that there will be enough neutrals out there for you to nab.  I've been in some situations as Vasari where I'm lucky to get 2 or 3 just because there weren't many (or sometimes any) nearby.  Equally there have been times where I've been going eco as Vasari and all that metal and crystal gets sent to an ally rather than spent on expensive Vasari ships.

If your eco why are you worrying about expensive Vasari Ships............I can see a few ships to defend with, but thats what your defensive and offensive allies should be doing for you, keeping their money bag safe.

That's my point; you don't need to worry about weak Vasari ships if you're in the pocket.  You can't say that the expensive ships are meant to counter-balance their ability to grab neutrals when the penalty doesn't always "come into play", so to speak.

The problem is that TEC can do eco just as well or better than Vasari, yet aren't so easily dominated early game.  Obviously if you ARE going eco you can assume you'll be safe, but I'd rather have the option to defend myself as TEC if I get attacked or my ally needs help outside of feed.

Actually, I don't think that's the *real* problem.  If vasari was weaker "right out of the ballpark" yet had something else to compensate later (kick ass support cruisers, kick ass RA, whatever) then the weakness would be acceptable, and what MindsEye is talking about (making all races the same with just a different look) wouldn't be an issue.  The problem is, I'm scratching my head to figure out what vasari gets late game to make up for early weaknesses.  Their tech 4 overseers are certainly no better than tec's tech3 robocruisers, and I'd argue that they are in fact worse.

You could flip the problem around and say "crappy late coming support cruisers and exotic techs are vasari's 'punishment' for getting some early kick ass bonuses."  But that isn't true either.  What the heck does vasari have early that is so kick ass?

I'd agree with MindsEye that there should be balance "by race" vs. "by unit."  But seeing that that hasn't happened, and perhaps isn't forthcoming anytime soon, is our only recourse the Darvin3 balance "by unit?"

Once upon a time the Vasari had racial strengths... look at the patch notes detailing their demise... then do a forum search and you'll notice a correlation between the patch dates and the forum whining and bitching dates that precede the patch notes within a three month period.

The Vasari just got hit too hard with the nerf bat in some critical locations... partially repealing those nerfs would probably bring everything back in line.

No but I mentioned vas is a bit of a wild card because of neutrals.How do you balance this race correctly when in one game vas can have easy access to 3-4x more metal income from 10 min of the start while the other races cannot reach them?The next game as you mentioned there might not be any.Its a gamble to play as them because of neutrals.When there is 15 metal /sec income on the map then vas can mop floor with any other 2 races easy.Their cost of ships doesnt matter.I do agree with you tho at the current state with equal eco vas cannot compete at the lf/scout level.They need to be adjusted.

While vas early game needs to be adjusted its dissapointing to me to see all types of ships to be adjusted out to where there is .25 difference in dps.They all become grey.Im for a buff to static defenses myself to ease the lf/scout madness.Constructors need a buff too.

I really don't think that claiming neutral extractors is any sort of advantage towards the Vasari, if anything it's a handicap - because taking them is critical for a Vasari, and they are incredibly easy to lose to another player. And there is nothing stopping the other races from sending out escorts with their colony ships and doing the exact same thing... hell, the other races' colony ships can and will actually destroy a Vasari scout if they engage it in combat. Which I find amusing since in the game-lore it states that the initial battles of the TEC-Vasari war were won by the Vasari scouts alone. Also, please hold no illusions about the durability of the Vasari scout and it's anti-matter regeneration - their lifespans are short and many are expended in the efforts to capture neutrals under the noses of the militia that are always present.

But this argument isn't about scouts... it's about the Skirmisher's weakness in dealing with the primary targets of the LF class of vessel. The Vasari skirmisher costs far more in Credits and Metal and Supply than the others for worse performance... and it is meant to be one of the primary attack vessels throughout the entire game. There's simply no justification for their current state!

Again, though, I think that what needs to be tweaked are the tech trees. The Vasari have techs that reduce the costs of their vessels that when you're max-labbed pretty much bring many of their ships mostly in line cost-wise with the other races (although they still are overpriced in supply - and no, the supply tech does NOT compensate, it just alleviates a little)... and I think that's part of the problem.

If the initial cost were reduced, it would be almost unfair later on after those techs. IMO, reduce the costs from the start and use those tech slots for something else (if memory serves, they both apply to more than just ships though, so perhaps just a tweak regarding ship costs is needed). And as for the Supply Cost? If kept in place I think it's fair to up the dps a tad for Skirms and Enforcers - which are under-achievers already anyway. In general, the Vasari tech trees need some serious streamlining across the board, and quite a few revisions to work out the useless.

-Itharus

Edit: Yes, I realize that just two posts ago I argued a different standpoint, and I think it remains valid, although it is likely incompatible with this post, but either or would be an acceptable nudge in the right direction, imo.

How do you balance out the wild card?  By removing the wildcard itself.  Balance vasari for fair, non-random maps, period, and balance them as NOT being any more dependent on neutrals than anyone else.

Now, if this is done, vasari could still end up becoming a monster on a random map with tons of neutrals, but that's the fault of the random map, and your decision to play on such a map.

Yeah there is.A colony ship will most likely not survive throught 2 jumps of militia whereas a scout can traverse nearly infinte jumps thru militia.

I dunno karma you will have to give neutral capture ability to all races scouts.It will change vas play alot too.

Bingo.

I also happen to believe that micro'ing tons of scouts all over the map while also attempting to deal with pressing matters at home is a serious micromanagement headache forced on the vasari player.

I think thats why he said "send an escort with the colony ship"

On a large or huge map that would be extremely micro intensive when your in combat and managing your empire when all a vas has to do is select scouts and tell them to go there.

I respect your experience and skills, MindsEye, so maybe you could explain this to me a little bit better.

The way I see it, a balanced, fair map would have the neutrals (if any) fairly distributed so that all players would have an equal shot at them.  Just using a 4 player map as a hypothetical example, maybe 1 neutral in each corner.  The vasari has easy access to the one in his district, but the other players have easy access to their's too.  You might counter me by saying the vasari player still has access to all the neutrals on such a map, but I say no because it would be fairly easy to kick him off neutrals that you are close to.  The vasari isn't going to own a neutral in your back yard, unless you either allow him to, or you suck.

Thus we have a fair map, and we can balance vasari around the idea of such a fair map.  And no need to give neutral capture ability to the other scouts.  Do you agree?

Ya karma thats a good idea but alot of games I play are 4v4 or 5v5 and on huge maps with neutrals at any point.I guess you could make there be 10 neutrals starting near each player but then it kinda takes the randomness out of it.If they could balance the neutrals out somehow then vas be much easier to balance.

Possibly make neutrals have an alliegence type where the further away it is the less you get.Makes sense since you would profit less from somthing that takes longer to get suplies to and from.Vas still be able to capture neutrals across the map but not become monopoly giants and then ship cost could be more inline.

Except that IS what we are doing. Sure we can tell a scout to go there, and hell take it. But all you have to do to take it is get one lucky colony ship in there. We have to micro to make sure that the extractor is still ours. and it is stolen that means either buidling another scout (who die pretty easily) or getting an existing one there.

So its cheaper to get them for us, but just as hard to keep them. And phew, keeping track on a huge map, oy.

If your kill the colony ship it takes agaes to get a new one there especially since you will have to re escort it there.Fact is its to hard because I dont see anyone with colony ships on the other side of map stealing neutrals from a good vas player.Good vas players dont run 1 scout around to defend their neutrals they have plenty of scouts to kill a colony ship.Noone does it to my knowledge and this has been the way it is for as long as I have played.

Thats why the best Vasari players are usually the ones with amazing micro like JJ or Tyr.

_|~Uber

Nah, man... make a colony frigate and a couple of low-range escorts (heck, a single repair cruiser can do it if you're at that point in the game), designate it a fleet, right click the target grav well w/ auto cast on, and you're golden. Neutral extractors usually aren't guarded very well, and if you happen to have a heavily defended world in between you and the neutral extractor - guess what - that's a p.i.t.a. for Vasari scouts to handle as well, lol.

-Itharus

Edit: Guarding the neutrals? Only if I notice it go dark, although if it happens too often I'm not above parking an Orkulus next to one just to be an a-hole; that and the giggle factor is pretty high.

So your tellin me in mp you send ur colony and whatever 5-10 jumps away and steall all the neutrals from good vasari players before they have captured them long enuf to monopilze on metal and crystal to roll you?

I get the feeling you dont even play the other races much

Six pages of this. Incredible. The same, simple-to-understand perfectly logical and valid argument being reiterated to a guy who believes the 'hit-and-run lore' has more to say about the game balance than the actual game itself does.

Stop posting here, it's pointless. You've made your point. Pretty much the original post was all that's needed.

The developers, I would think, have common sense and will obviously be in agreement that the Vasari are considerably underpowered, especially when it comes to the Skirmisher. As was already discussed at length, it's an issue of simple math. The numbers speak for themselves and this IS a numbers game, like any RTS. Whether or not the issue(s) is amended by patching has nothing to do with whether this thread continues for another 4-5 pages but whether IronClad can find the time/opportunity to get a patch out the door.

I tend to agree with this however its part of the vas playstyle and a challenge that some like I suppose in gaining the upper hand.

If the developers agreed with this they would have fixed it long ago.  I'll stop posting hit and run until i get a few chances to do it online, against the overall ICO Community instead of AI but that will have to wait until Illums are fixed.