How Qot should be... » Forum Post by gkrit

OK.

just this:

the buffs i suggested are tweakable. you can tweak how they increase on alter levels, this includes even her AA Damage. Thus you can repair her main problem: her scaling at later levels.

they are tweakable, but i think her scaling would still be not enough, cause stats improving doesnt improve skills that are still going to scale bad. (and at high levels all dg (by buying almost always the same (HP, dps..) items) start to look the same with their stats)

not just Qot i would like to buff (as would also other players), but every dg that got bad scaling skill (eg. reg snipe & ang. fury; and really i could find at every dg a skill that would at lvl 15+ be low effective; and for ex. oak shield also must be fixed, but it is just not a priority now. and ppl wouldnt like to mess him up now cause they are enjoying in him being good (which they cant really tell for Qot)

(for Shield specifically i mean nerfing in a way that it: A.- has 4 skills to spend (4th should be purity, and not 3rd as IT IS now!), B.- 3rd should give the healing effect! (i've even been thinking about percentage healing, but that would be way OP as for now, but generaly speaking there arent many percentage skills in this game))

and please what do you think about my suggested entourage?

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didn't i said i want some skills scaling buffed? i mentioned the shield to be buffed for the last or last two ranks. beside of that maybe, only maybe the shamblers could need s slight buff for later levels. buff them directly or by using entourage.

so what you critizise on my comments is so far worng as i said the same like you

but i am not with you that any bad scaling skill should be "fixed", for different reasons.... i find it good that some skills are only for some levels usefull. it adds some depth in strategy and tactics.

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Gkrit. Just so I don't get you confused I agree with you very much that QoT has her flaws. Its just that she's a support character. 1 vs 1 in a team game really doesn't matter much. So she can push in the begining and die in the end. The thing is she shines so much before level 15 that you've done enough damage by that point that it doesn't matter by endgame. If you were going to win you would have much earlier thanks to ground spikes and the tower damage bonus.

Now maybe weaken her early game and lower some mana costs while upping some abilities late game would fix what her problems are but I'm saying would you rather have GPG spend a few days fixing QoT or doing something more productive such as releasing the other 2 demigods?

I'm starting to agree with you. Sorry for oppossing the idea so openly at first. I came at it wrong. I agree just not that it's a high priority or thats its a major major problem. Until they balance UB, Erebus, and Oak more no one will switch to QoT they'll go ahead mauling people with UB, Erebus, and Oak. Now these people in some way have at least one ability that when used is just annoying. UB I actually have to say is the most balanced of the 3. Make shield a little less amazing and up oak's other abilities to balance him (not pentinence). Erebus just needs more variety than bite spam. Now unless QoT is buffed up to their level compared to a sedna level she would become very popular.

If that is confusing please feel free to ask questions.

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Now maybe weaken her early game and lower some mana costs while upping some abilities late game would fix what her problems are

yes!

but I'm saying would you rather have GPG spend a few days fixing QoT or doing something more productive such as releasing the other 2 demigods?

both, Qot is long time issue. as are new dgs (+ i dont think that small buffing of Qot (like the one suggested from celmare for ex.) would prolongue the coming of 2 new dgs much

The thing is she shines so much before level 15 that you've done enough damage by that point that it doesn't matter by endgame.

but pros dont wont to take that risk of (if being really equal and not finishing game before lvl 15 >going to 20(very reraly, i know, but still!) they would not take her! (and she is still also not better from 1st - 15th lvl (or 10th) than other dgs you just mentioned)

Until they balance UB, Erebus, and Oak more no one will switch to QoT they'll go ahead mauling people with UB, Erebus, and Oak.

exactly! just what i meant above (so we agree then )

Make shield a little less amazing and up oak's other abilities to balance him (not pentinence).

have you seen my suggestion for shield nerf? it's just above in my last comment

and that 'other ability' you mentioned would be for ex. Soul power - nobody takes 2 and 3 (it is waste), and i must add that 1 point here is too good! If i correctly understood tables of its functioning from dg wiki & ppl who wrote on this forum, 1 point adds +60 dmg(!) if you have 3 spirits, and you can have it on 2 lvl (!) (compare rooks God strenght +50 dmg on lvl 5 ), if you took Ward at first lvl (i usually play like that!) > It is +20 base dmg(without spirits) +20 (with just one more!) +10(2nd spirit) +10(3rd spirit) = +60dmg!!!

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I have fought with and against QoT today and her main problem seems to be that the damage she does to other demigods is pathetic. Its just not going to impress any demigod. Her dps is 100-150, maybe higher later on but later on queen is even more useless. Her shamblers are not worth a damn. their damage, again, is not enough. They are more vulnarable than nightwalkers and come in smaller numbers. Her shields get destroyed in 1 or 2 seconds later on. (3 mines alone do the job) But worst of all, as I already said, her damage output is way too low. I can barely harm that sedna, I cant push away that erebus if the damage I do is making him laugh.

She can be a pretty annoying against rooks towers but regulus can do that too. She is hard to get killed but you can pretty much ignore her and kill her allies since she does no damage. maybe in her offensive form she can do some damage with her abilities but that way I her abilities need to protect her and kill her enemies which means she is very mana-intensive and when her mana runs out she isnt useful at all anymore.

How she should be? Higher auto-attack, very high mana regen just as tb, stronger shamblers with more hp and attack (they are good for mulching now) and stronger offensive capabilities in general and something to make her useful in later game. maybe there shouldnt even be two forms. It makes it hard to function for demigods that depend on their abilities if they have to spend seconds to just attack their enemies properly.

+1

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She is hard to get killed but you can pretty much ignore her and kill her allies since she does no damage.

EXACTLY, i was aware of that long time ago, and always play like that - ignoring (but still NOT underestimating)

IF FACT, I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID! You really summed it up well! - Good explanation of everything i always thought, and think also gkrit and majority of other ppl did.

I only disagree with

maybe there shouldnt even be two forms.

- we dont want that. we want fixing it with good balancing (it was suggested to decrease cooldown of switching between two modes/forms for ex.)

anyway, for you! thanx for comment!

+1

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Wow 2 people who understand the dilemma who don't want to go to extrodinary lengths to buff her. Her buff doesn't need to be big. It's small changes. Bobek put my thoughts to words perfect thank you man. Karma for you. I agree you just need more damage late game. Early game it isn't a problem because you canlast 2 or 3 times longer than other demigods giving you the ability to let your low dps take hold on most players. But endgame your auto attack is crap.

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How about my suggestion here. If you can read through the wall of text I thank you. It's about my idea for a QoT fix and I think it's quiet good and would solve the problem. http://forums.demigodthegame.com/367749

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Until they balance UB, Erebus, and Oak more no one will switch to QoT they'll go ahead mauling people with UB, Erebus, and Oak.

why fix alot of demigods while you could just bring 1 demigod up to the standard of others. i dont see why you have to touch other demigods when we all know its QoT who is lacking at this point in time.

Qot needs a buff, and its a buff regardless of how big it is. All im trying to say is that her open form needs to be more appealing to players.

Her closed form should take on a "tank" role. Her open form should be able to perform as well as other offensive demigods.

Everyone turns away from open Qot BECAUSE:
- her aa is very weak and attacks 1 enemy at a time. Not good for pressuring or taking down a fleeing demigod.
- She has very low def and max health and shes unable to protect herself (until she spends 3 secs waiting for her defensive skills)
- her offensive skills take up too much mana, making ppl hesitant to use them so that when they do change back to bud form she still has enough mana to protect herself.
- shes ranged in aa but her movement speed is rediculous, so escaping someone like UB (dont forget about spit having range) is pointless. and for that matter, unable to chase down a fleeing foe.

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awuffleablehedgie

Join Date 04/2009

+60

Everyone turns away from open Qot BECAUSE:
- her aa is very weak and attacks 1 enemy at a time. Not good for pressuring or taking down a fleeing demigod.
- She has very low def and max health and shes unable to protect herself (until she spends 3 secs waiting for her defensive skills)
- her offensive skills take up too much mana, making ppl hesitant to use them so that when they do change back to bud form she still has enough mana to protect herself.
- shes ranged in aa but her movement speed is rediculous, so escaping someone like UB (dont forget about spit having range) is pointless. and for that matter, unable to chase down a fleeing foe.

--

Also the fact her chasing attack attacks random creeps, towers, monks, angels...... instead of the demigod three feet in front of you that you are clicking fanatically. Several things like that make her unsuitable for competitive play where 200 damage can, will, and does make a difference.

Queen's early game autoattack is fine. Sure, it's very low dps but it's cleaving. This means if you are both fighting in a creep wave, you kill their creep wave, your creepwave moves forward, attacks the demigod. I micro my AA to affect the largest number of targets.

I'm okay with her horrendous mana-drain (which is in part because her cooldowns are all very short and spammable), but she does need to have somethign to make her faster. Compost could be designed to give her an AA speed and movement speed buff when units die around her (on top of the Shambler bufff). AA speed + also synergizes with her AoE Spike Circle attack because the faster you attack the more you get to take advantage of the armor debuff.

Most of her active abilities are okay (Bramble III & IV could use a bit of a buff),if you exclude Uproot. Fixing her autoattack bugs and giving her worthwhile minions and passives would allow her to have more build diversitly while making her less mana dependent (passives don't cost mana).

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Quoting gkrit,

reply 34

Until they balance UB, Erebus, and Oak more no one will switch to QoT they'll go ahead mauling people with UB, Erebus, and Oak.

why fix alot of demigods while you could just bring 1 demigod up to the standard of others. i dont see why you have to touch other demigods when we all know its QoT who is lacking at this point in time.

Qot needs a buff, and its a buff regardless of how big it is. All im trying to say is that her open form needs to be more appealing to players.

Her closed form should take on a "tank" role. Her open form should be able to perform as well as other offensive demigods.

Everyone turns away from open Qot BECAUSE:
- her aa is very weak and attacks 1 enemy at a time. Not good for pressuring or taking down a fleeing demigod.
- She has very low def and max health and shes unable to protect herself (until she spends 3 secs waiting for her defensive skills)
- her offensive skills take up too much mana, making ppl hesitant to use them so that when they do change back to bud form she still has enough mana to protect herself.
- shes ranged in aa but her movement speed is rediculous, so escaping someone like UB (dont forget about spit having range) is pointless. and for that matter, unable to chase down a fleeing foe.

Bringing one up doesn't fix the problem. There still are 4 that aren't played as much. But beside that fact did you look at my post. It is a suggestion to fix oepn QoT and make closed form scale more to endgame.

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not yet .. ill read ur post when i have more time. but see ur trying to make her closed side scale well late game, we all know this doesnt but, closed form is STILL used over offense form still! If you think bud doesnt scale well (keeping in mind that everyone chooses to go bud form over open), what does that say about open form?

my thread is suggesting ways of making offense side more appealing.

Bringing one up doesn't fix the problem. There still are 4 that aren't played as much.

the reason why ereb, oak, UB, and regulus/sedna are used more than all other is because they either have great dps mid-late game and thats what is the deciding factor in this game. Sedna is more for the support and the fact shes got powerful skills such as Silence and pounce but above all that, her heal has debuff removal capabilities. erebus is nice for getting out of situations and in, and hes great to couple up with dps characters coz of his 2 snaring skills (bite and mass charm).

But as for rook, u need to be able to read the play and time things well which requires skill and not many ppl have that atm.
TB, very nice burst dmg but hes very squishy and is only desired in organised games.
Qot, has no real unique ability apart from taking out towers quickly BUT if your in a pro game ppl react quickly and tp to their tower thats in danger and push her bak with ease coz of how weak she is. Her buffs arent as effective as, oaks shield, sednas heal for example. these are massive life saving skills, but are they OP. I dont think so coz shield takes ages to cooldown, heal has low cooldown but you are still vulnerable to dmg afterwards.

but lots of thought has to go into balancing and its very hard to get ur point across easily coz theres too many factors involved.

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Quoting gkrit,

reply 37

not yet .. ill read ur post when i have more time. but see ur trying to make her closed side scale well late game, we all know this doesnt but, closed form is STILL used over offense form still! If you think bud doesnt scale well (keeping in mind that everyone chooses to go bud form over open), what does that say about open form?

my thread is suggesting ways of making offense side more appealing.

Bringing one up doesn't fix the problem. There still are 4 that aren't played as much.
the reason why ereb, oak, UB, and regulus/sedna are used more than all other is because they either have great dps mid-late game and thats what is the deciding factor in this game. Sedna is more for the support and the fact shes got powerful skills such as Silence and pounce but above all that, her heal has debuff removal capabilities. erebus is nice for getting out of situations and in, and hes great to couple up with dps characters coz of his 2 snaring skills (bite and mass charm).

But as for rook, u need to be able to read the play and time things well which requires skill and not many ppl have that atm.
TB, very nice burst dmg but hes very squishy and is only desired in organised games.
Qot, has no real unique ability apart from taking out towers quickly BUT if your in a pro game ppl react quickly and tp to their tower thats in danger and push her bak with ease coz of how weak she is. Her buffs arent as effective as, oaks shield, sednas heal for example. these are massive life saving skills, but are they OP. I dont think so coz shield takes ages to cooldown, heal has low cooldown but you are still vulnerable to dmg afterwards.

but lots of thought has to go into balancing and its very hard to get ur point across easily coz theres too many factors involved.

Well, what can i say? gkrit pretty much said everything!

totally agree with you.

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Quoting gkrit,

reply 37

not yet .. ill read ur post when i have more time. but see ur trying to make her closed side scale well late game, we all know this doesnt but, closed form is STILL used over offense form still! If you think bud doesnt scale well (keeping in mind that everyone chooses to go bud form over open), what does that say about open form?

my thread is suggesting ways of making offense side more appealing.

Bringing one up doesn't fix the problem. There still are 4 that aren't played as much.
the reason why ereb, oak, UB, and regulus/sedna are used more than all other is because they either have great dps mid-late game and thats what is the deciding factor in this game. Sedna is more for the support and the fact shes got powerful skills such as Silence and pounce but above all that, her heal has debuff removal capabilities. erebus is nice for getting out of situations and in, and hes great to couple up with dps characters coz of his 2 snaring skills (bite and mass charm).

But as for rook, u need to be able to read the play and time things well which requires skill and not many ppl have that atm.
TB, very nice burst dmg but hes very squishy and is only desired in organised games.
Qot, has no real unique ability apart from taking out towers quickly BUT if your in a pro game ppl react quickly and tp to their tower thats in danger and push her bak with ease coz of how weak she is. Her buffs arent as effective as, oaks shield, sednas heal for example. these are massive life saving skills, but are they OP. I dont think so coz shield takes ages to cooldown, heal has low cooldown but you are still vulnerable to dmg afterwards.

but lots of thought has to go into balancing and its very hard to get ur point across easily coz theres too many factors involved.

Well, what can i say? gkrit pretty much said everything!

totally agree with you.

Sorry for double post

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Quoting Wimmetje,

reply 30

I have fought with and against QoT today and her main problem seems to be that the damage she does to other demigods is pathetic. Its just not going to impress any demigod. Her dps is 100-150, maybe higher later on but later on

she has exact the same dps like sedna. ofcourse sedna can skill pounce while qot has two other abilities that do less dmg on their own but the armor decrease ampliefies highly dmg of otehr autoatacks. hence qot alone (wihtout minions and maybe one nearby ally) does less dmg as a sedna, but this is not true with minions (shamblers and others) compaired to a sedna with minions (only idols).

qot is not a killer and never intended to be. qot is the dark forces sedna! it is not her dmg that needs buffing.

queen is even more useless. Her shamblers are not worth a damn. their damage, again, is not enough. They are more vulnarable than nightwalkers and come in smaller numbers.

but they do more dmg. but i agree that they are too squishy. they should be much tougher as they die too fast and they cost mana to recast (quite much).

Her shields get destroyed in 1 or 2 seconds later on. (3 mines alone do the job) But worst of all, as I already said, her damage output is way too low. I can barely harm that sedna, I cant push away that erebus if the damage I do is making him laugh.

here qot has a better stand than sedna cause all you said holds for sedna too. but qot has shield AND a heal, that is bigger than sednas one: mulch shamblers. and she can give her shield to multiple targets BEFORE dmg occurse.

i do not deny she needs buffing. but don't make here a damage dealer. she is an "another sedna". what makes qot compaired to sedna worse is that sedna can use all her abilities without stance dancing. no the other side qot can attack from range and has aoe. still her stance switching is too slow. qot has a great heal. in fact defensive support wise qot is better than sedna... theoretically at least.

but qot has heavy mana problems and her shamlber are FAR too squishy.

the longer i tried qot i come to the conclusion that basically all qot needs is rbalancing mana costs, increasing her hp/mana scaling on later levels, heavaly nicreasing shamblers survivability and reduice stance switching time (this is also needed for TB).

i would not touch her dmg output, at least not until the above changes have been tested in a longer period.

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my comment will be abundant here, but anyway i'll say it. And i agree totaly: gkrit pretty much said everything (also wimmetje above)

Now:

Until they balance UB, Erebus, and Oak more no one will switch to QoT they'll go ahead mauling people with UB, Erebus, and Oak.

exactly! just what i meant above (so we agree then )

&

why fix alot of demigods while you could just bring 1 demigod up to the standard of others. i dont see why you have to touch other demigods when we all know its QoT who is lacking at this point in time.

with both i agree; priority Qot, then next Reg,Tb,Rook,Sedna(jetis!),and Oak,Erebus,Beast. > Everybody! (needs more balancing, and don't forget the items too!)

Compost could be designed to give her an AA speed and movement speed buff when units die around her (on top of the Shambler bufff). AA speed + also synergizes with her AoE Spike Circle attack because the faster you attack the more you get to take advantage of the armor debuff.

Its good to see that more and more people agree with compost speed buff. Yeah!

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why touch reg? i only see balancing issues for tb and qot, mainly qot. but reg? is it because of bad scaling of snipe in late game? reg is not defined by snipe!

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yes, bad late game snipe scaling (+totaly uneffective 15 lvl skill of snipe), and angelic fury - same problem (with lvl 15 skill vengeance); that must be change (cause nobody use it), and also +100 dmg of ang fury late game isnt much for 4 skills spend in it compare with just one skill in it (+25 dmg) which does same work with aoe effect. And compare with oaks soul power (just 1 skill point +60 dam (if having 3 spirits), and rooks 2 skill point for +100 dmg (cost 0 mana).

I have some idea how to improve those, but i will tell that later.

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Quoting CelMare,

reply 42

why touch reg? i only see balancing issues for tb and qot, mainly qot. but reg? is it because of bad scaling of snipe in late game? reg is not defined by snipe!

I agree. Reg is fine. TB needs the aa to be working in fire mode.

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Bobek_XY: you are totally wrong with angelic fury!!! you are right that the level 15 skills may need some change as many other level 15 skills need. but this is not regulus problem. angelic fury together with mines and the right equipment is a massive demigod killer.

consider this: get some attackspeed items and dmg items as reg. you do massive aa-AOE dmg and single target dmg. throw the mines in and reg is one of the worst nightmare. the basic problem of regulus is not the regulus himself, it is the player.

regulus needs good controlling/micromanagement and intelligent trap setting. most people play regulus like a granadier and die in melee.

my hints on a decent regulus against good players:

take snipe 1 - and only 1 as higher ranks are a waste against good players. but snipe 1 helps to turn the rpessure arround at early levels and with luck sometimes gives you a kill even against good players.

taking maim rank 1 ealry is a good idea but not a must have. but it works greate together with snipe 1 to help an ally chasing one to death or escaping.

scope 1 and maybe tracking device.

now the wings... keep for a good time only rank 1, and you farm creeps fast. get mines up to rank 3 and then go deeper into wings. theng et back to wings... of course get mines 4 as soon as possible.

when you have the above skills and at least 2 ranks in wings (or 3, but dont get 4) get attributes or maim one rank higher. witha attributes your attack speed increases and you will feel it.

get items that increase your attackspeed and your dmg. never stay in melee range, NEVER.... well until you had so many kills to be able buing items for the staying power

you think reg sucks cause you cannot stay with an ub in 1on1 in melee range? not the regulus is sucking here. run and hit, and lure him into mines but MAINLY go and assist you allys. while they tank you do MASSIVE dmg, and you do it to ALL at the same time. with wings and mines you are the best AOE-Damage-Dealer in Demigod. With inteligent possitioned mines you can set a trap so enemys think they destroy a chasing target and turn the wheel around.

basicaly that is why i love this game: the demigods are so different to play. most underestimate their power because they try to play any demigod more or less the same.

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I'm not that wrong, and you'll see why. Now, one by one, from easiest to hardest:

take snipe 1 - and only 1 as higher ranks are a waste against good players.

there, you said it yourself, just now, that snipe needs buffing! And i always take snipe 1 first!, but snipe 2 rarely, snipe 3 never >>> it asks for buffing!

taking maim rank 1 ealry is a good idea but not a must have. but it works greate together with snipe 1 to help an ally chasing one to death or escaping.

scope 1 and maybe tracking device.

100% know that! (but Trac. d. is usually more than maybe)

now the wings... keep for a good time only rank 1, and you farm creeps fast. get mines up to rank 3 and then go deeper into wings. theng et back to wings... of course get mines 4 as soon as possible.

there you go again - that fact means that 'wings' are not good balanced (on their own). I dont say it is bad skill - no way - but, 1. deals so good aoe dam, that 2. 3. 4. are not so necessary (i did testing - aoe dmg increase of skill itself is zero (read down)- it seems more just because of base att dmg increase & + angelic fury dmg bonus values), and also +25, +50, +75, +100 dmg> not so great scaling late game. Only reason why ppl are taking this skill to 3rd or 4th lvl is because they dont really have much better choice. (they certainly wont take more points in snipe late game if they didnt early). The fact is that this skill is(looks) good is only because it's aoe is affected by base dmg increase (and angelic fury aoe is 75% of base dmg(that is: of real base dmg + dmg from AF (25/50/75/100) on ALL lvls of the skill) - by my calculations).

when you have the above skills and at least 2 ranks in wings (or 3, but dont get 4)

and here again you are just proving my point, what i just said above.

I actually dont think that increasing AF dmg is good balancing now, if you think i thought on that, there are more ideas than just that, and i have some of them.

get items that increase your attackspeed and your dmg. never stay in melee range, NEVER.... well until you had so many kills to be able buing items for the staying power

you dont need to tell me that; like i'm child . That's basics! I'm far from pro, but i know how to play him

you think reg sucks cause you cannot stay with an ub in 1on1 in melee range?

No. And i never ever said that, nor ever thought that (that because of that sucks, bla, bla)

I just want to do more better balancing with all demigods, but sure, i agree that AF is not priority now, cause it does its work, even too good on 1st lvl of skill, but would like it fix, after the more important are fix, BUT Vengeance in compare to AF is priority imo. And i have idea how, but i'm not going about it now.

the demigods are so different to play. most underestimate their power because they try to play any demigod more or less the same.

I'm not sure i understood you good on that last sentence. I'll say that I try to find the best strategy(build) for every dg, which i could implement in almost every game, but every dg has of course its own strategy different from some other dg. BUT also, the more i play (& read this forum) i find that in fact there is really just one/the best way (or max two) of how to play some dg char. (that is what skills to take and with what order (mostly)), and i think that is a problem; and one way of solving it, is by more balancing of skills not just in comparison between dgs, but also within each dg itself. (All skills should become equally important (make them harder to pick one among the others), or at least we should try our best to make them like that)

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Um, sorry for mess. there's been some problems with fonts, i dont know

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