(Edited) Now I wanna be like Finland

(Edited and updated article, please see below)

 

You know, I'm not big on this whole Universal Healthcare deal (or universal everything). It's not that I am against providing healthcare for all my fellow countrymen, it's the way it's being presented and they way they want to administrate it that I have problems with. The same goes for any concept that would have the Gov't be the one in control of it and use tax payers money to give free services away.

But I guess it would depend on what services we are talking about. Right now geeks all across the world could be envying Finland's population as now Broadband is now as much of a right as freedom is. Yes, according to this article Finland now has a policy that will provide it's citizens with free broadband and not just any broadband. Starting at 1 Mbps in 2010, by 2015 all Finland citizens (regardless of location) will have access to up to 100 Mbps broadband. Now that is pretty cool. I pay $55 a month and barely get 6 Mbps. Of course as someone on the article pointed out that it's easy to provide everything to your citizens when the populations is only around 5.3 million compared to the estimated 300 million population in the US.

Makes it almost tempting to wanna move to Finland. Almost. Congrats Finland for such a great gift to your people. BTW, I'm one of those Geeks envying you.

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This article has a booboo in it, please go to this correct article for the update. Thank you.

 

4,805 views 23 replies
Reply #1 Top

The same goes for any concept that would have the Gov't be the one in control of it and use tax payers money to give free services away.
End of quote

T.I.N.S.T.A.A.F.L. (There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunc) That has to be one of the biggest things that the instructor I had for economics, back in high school, mentioned. Time and again he would say it, and he is absolutely right.

Technically, with a few exceptions, none of the services a government provides are free. Someone, somewhere pays for them; usually, but not limited to the people who are receiving the benefits of the program.

I find it interesting that some people think the programs should be scrapped. These services (i guess more so theoretically) are available to every eligible citizen; Ironically, I've seen a few examples of the people I mentioned finding themselves in a position where they needed help.

I think the saying goes, "Be careful or life will bite you in the butt."

 

 

That being said, I'm curious as to what your thoughts are about the line in the US constitution's preamble that states, "...promote the general Welfare..."

I'm definitely no constitutional lawyer, though I'm considering going to law school and specializing in that very area, I find it interesting that the constitution states this. It begs the question: What does it mean by the general welfare? Well, obviously, and with hopes that this doesn't slide into a debate on semantics, welfare means happiness. So...to some, living life on the welfare system is happiness. They may not have any desire to go further.

Can we as a voting populace, theoretically, deny them the right to their happiness (general welfare)? I guess you could also say that by "general welfare" you mean life, liberty, and the pursuit happiness. Again, you get back to the point that not all people are the same.

Anyways, it's a fascinating thought really.

 

~AJ

 

 

 

Reply #2 Top

Technically, with a few exceptions, none of the services a government provides are free. Someone, somewhere pays for them; usually, but not limited to the people who are receiving the benefits of the program.
End of quote

Free to those who get it, that's why I said take taxpayers money and provide free services. Nothing is free, it takes money just to collect taxes.

That being said, I'm curious as to what your thoughts are about the line in the US constitution's preamble that states, "...promote the general Welfare..."
End of quote

Taking into consideration I am no expert on the Costitution and the history around it, I have to look at it 2 ways:

1) There is no real way to know what exactly our Founding Fathers had in mind when they created the Costitution. We can only interpret what it means.

2) Times change and just like the bible, people will see the meaning of the Constitution in different ways. We have to take into account that our Founding Fathers could not have predicted how much things would change in such a short amount of time.

Perhaps it was the normal language back in the days but you would think they would have made this document a bit easier to understand, make the words a bit more clearer, take into consideration those who's education may not have been as high as most of them. Kinda shows how politics have changed so little in over 200 years, even back then they made policies and bills that only they in part know what it means.

What do i think? I would have to take it word for word:

promote - as in raise to a high position or contribute to progress

general -as in everyone

welfare - as in benefit or wellbeing

Basically to raise peoples wellbeing. But how does one do that? I take the cycle of a person from birth to adulthood (say 18 years old) as an example of raising  a person wellbeing.

Why do we teach children to talk, walk, read, write, clean and defend themselves? Because once they are adults they will need to know how to do these things on their own. As adults some of these kids will not do as well as others and will need some kind of help. But what kind of help do they need? Do they need help to survive or help to live? I am bothered by the idea that there is a Gov't program called Welfare that basically goes against what the word itself means. How does giving people money without working when they don't have any benefit them? Wouldn't addressing the problem, the reason they are down and out be a better way to "promote general welfare"?

Our society today has taken a word that had a different meaning back then and related it to money and now when ever anyone says the word welfare the first thing that comes to mind is people getting checks for doing nothing from a system that does not promote getting off that same system (at least not successfully promoting it). Children are dependent of adults for everything but in the process we teach them the skills necessary to grow independent from us (most do anyways). So why, after they are all grown up, do we have a system to does the opposite? Makes them dependent again rather than teaching them to be independent?

Sure, we have programs that help people get an education, get jobs and even make them better people. But considering the poor alone outnumber the successful and our Gov't soluton to this problem is more dependence; seems to me these programs meant to "promote general welfare" are not working. So why, instead of eliminating them and replacing them with something better that works, we continue to add to them, making them worse?

Do you take a cut already wrapped in badages but still bleeding and wrap it in more bandages? Or do you take the cut and use something better that can stop the bleeding, heal the wound and cure it all together?

Promote general welfare to me means help make people better. Doing everything for them, giving them everything without them working for it, taking the pain from them because you fell bad about it does not help them; because we never know if one day this Gov't may not exist and who will they have to give them everything then? What are the odds that a baby can survive without adults?

Reply #3 Top

Free to those who get it, that's why I said take taxpayers money and provide free services. Nothing is free, it takes money just to collect taxes.
End of quote

No, it isn't free to them either; they still pay for it because everyone pays taxes. Hence, those taxes go toward paying it. The idea that these services are free, is a myth, an illusion. You still pay for them; no one cannot not pay taxes. I would venture to say that maybe the only people who don't "pay" are undocumented workers, though even then i would say - due to my limited knowledge on such matters - i cannot be sure.

 

I'll get to the rest later because I'm getting tired. ~AJ

 

Reply #4 Top

No, it isn't free to them either; they still pay for it because everyone pays taxes. Hence, those taxes go toward paying it. The idea that these services are free, is a myth, an illusion. You still pay for them; no one cannot not pay taxes. I would venture to say that maybe the only people who don't "pay" are undocumented workers, though even then i would say - due to my limited knowledge on such matters - i cannot be sure.
End of quote

It took me a while to figure it out but it's my understanding that I don't really pay taxes seeing as I get just about all my taxes back every year plus what ever incentive the Gov't gives (such as the child credit my kids qualify for). That means I get back more than I pay. So, while somewhere along the long the money I pay in taxes is used to pay something and sometimes it can probably accumulate some kind of interest, I still get that money back so in reality I never really paid taxes and it was more like saving money for 1 year.

AJ, you need to stop being so literal here. It's free. The people getting welfare are usually people who don't work and therefore do not pay taxes and therefore get this money for free. The same with foodstamps. It's free to the recepient, but not to the one paying for it.

Reply #5 Top

I'll get to the rest later because I'm getting tired.
End of quote

Tired of what? :zzz:

Reply #6 Top

"Resident individuals pay tax on worldwide income; non-residents pay tax on Finnish-source income only. An individual who has a main home in Finland or is continuously present in the country for more than six months is considered to be resident. Individual income tax is charged at progressive rates to 32% on taxable income over 60,800. A municipal income tax also applies to earned income, and is charged at rates varying from 16% to 21%, depending on the municipality. In addition, members of certain churches pay a church tax of between 1% and 2.25%, depending on the municipality. Tax on income from capital, including capital gains, is charged at 28%. The amount of national and local taxes, wealth tax and health insurance payable is limited to a maximum of 60% of taxable income. The wealth tax is to be abolished in 2006. Capital gains on the sale of an individual's permanent residence are exempt after two years of ownership. Finland has a special tax regime for qualifying foreign specialists and executives resulting in a flat tax rate of 35%."

Still want "Free" Internet?

Source: http://www.ocra.com/solutions/finland-taxation.asp

Reply #7 Top

Still want "Free" Internet?
End of quote

:rofl:   Sounds more like someone decided maybe they were taking too much so they decided to give a little bit back.

Reply #8 Top

Still want "Free" Internet?

End of quote

I don't think the idea behind Finnlan's "free" Internet was redistribution of wealth. I think it's simply a matter of infrastructure. It's not a bad idea, I think.

The shortest connection between two points using a cable is a natural monopoly. (There is only one such shortest connection.) I think the state should handle natural monopolies.

 

Reply #9 Top

Oh, and yes, I would pay almost any amount of taxes (and in Ireland I pay 41% top rate) if I had state-guaranteed DSL!

Reply #10 Top

€60,800.00 = $90,476.40 as of right now.

If the highest tax bracket is $90,476.40 + in Finland (Obama says your wealthy in the US if you make $250K) and it is a progressive tax, the bottom is likely to be much lower than it is in the US (My opinion, as I can't find the bottom bracket data for Finland). If the rate is lower that probably means that few people in Finland effectively pay zero taxes (and everyone does pay VAT).

Welfare, food stamps. and child credits may appear free to the recipients. To an extent that is true. However. that cost is passed on to them (as well as taxpayers) in part through higher cost of consumables, thereby reducing the value of the benefit. But something is better than nothing, right? It also creates a spiral effect in entailments payout and taxes garnered. If we had a welfare population the size of Finland, disregarding remote areas, it would be easy to give broadband Internet to everyone. People that can (and some that can't) afford it already have it. Some people have no need for it or do not want it (even in this day and age), despite their financial means.

Reply #11 Top

€60,800.00 = $90,476.40 as of right now.

End of quote

Ireland:

Single Taxpayers
Personal tax credits of €1,830
PAYE tax credit of €1830
Income Tax after subtracting deductions from total pay:
20% on the first €36,400
41% on the balance

30% for over 60,000 sounds very nice to me. I thought Scandinavian countries had very high taxes?

 

Reply #13 Top

30% for over 60,000 sounds very nice to me. I thought Scandinavian countries had very high taxes?
End of quote

You left out the additional 16% - 21% municipal taxes. Does a total 51% still sound appealing?

Reply #14 Top

I don't think the idea behind Finnlan's "free" Internet was redistribution of wealth. I think it's simply a matter of infrastructure. It's not a bad idea, I think.
End of quote

Nor do I. It very well may be a good/nice idea, especially when your talking about a nation (Finland) with a population approx. the same size as the city of Rio de Janeiro. Big countries, large populations, non-clustered populations, not so cheap to implement IMO. 

Reply #15 Top

Hold on, Charles are you talking about taxes in Finland or the US? Just wanted to clarify.
End of quote

Not sure what exactly you are asking about but my first paragraph was about the US (which I believe is obvious) then I spoke about Finland. I don't, however, believe I spoke of Finland's taxes, Nitro did.

Reply #16 Top

Big countries, large populations, non-clustered populations, not so cheap to implement IMO.
End of quote

I would be willing to pay for my internet, I just wish it was not so expensive for such slow speed compared to what other countries get as the standard.

 

Reply #17 Top

I would be willing to pay for my internet, I just wish it was not so expensive for such slow speed compared to what other countries get as the standard.
End of quote

I can't say I don't know of anyone that  wouldn't want to pay less for it, that's for sure, myself included. If I paid as high a percentage of taxes as the folks in Finland do, I would want something to show for it as well, and that is as good as any. I prefer that people choose the services they want to pay for, instead of the government deciding for them (and charging for it too). Less government please. They always think they can spend my money better than I can.

Also, even though most of Finland's population is toward the south in larger population areas, I'll bet there will be someone that is too difficult to reach in order to get wired up, especially if there is little infrastructure to begin with. While possible, it would seem cost prohibitive to run 100's of miles of cable for a handful of remote households. Satellite is a possibility, but again expensive and I'm unsure if Finland currently has that space technology in place (I'm sure it might "share" telecoms with other countries). BTW Laplanders are nomadic, are they excluded?  

Reply #18 Top

Less government please. They always think they can spend my money better than I can.
End of quote

It's ironic that anyone (Liberals) would think the Gov't could spend it better when the Gov't is composed of people just like the ones who (apparently) can't seem to do it right themselves. It's call human nature, bocming a politician does not change your nature. Politicians make just as many (if not more) mistakes as any normal citizen and are just as stupid at spending money unwisely as the average citizen is. They just happen to have a bigger budget that most and less fear since it's not necessarily their money.

BTW Laplanders are nomadic, are they excluded?
End of quote

WiFi's perhaps? Place strategic antenas that transmit WiFi signals that allow those too far for cables to get WiFi (maybe not as good as cables but something) or even these Laplanders can benefit from it. Solar powered antenas that can transmit or extend the WiFi signals.

Reply #19 Top

Not sure what exactly you are asking about but my first paragraph was about the US (which I believe is obvious) then I spoke about Finland. I don't, however, believe I spoke of Finland's taxes, Nitro did.
End of quote

Just was checking because I wasn't sure if when we were talking about taxes (whether certain people pay/do not pay), you were talking about Finland or the US.

Anyways, I stand by what I said, nothing is free, and everyone has to pay taxes.

 

Reply #20 Top

Tired of what?
End of quote

 

Tired in general, I've been fairly busy lately with classes, tests/hw, and non school things.

Reply #21 Top

Anyways, I stand by what I said, nothing is free, and everyone has to pay taxes.
End of quote

Well, i wouldn't say everyone, i would say someone. I have an aunt that has been living off the system for as far  back as I can remember. As for her paying, she probably never really paid any taxes her entire life and if she did (besides sales taxes) she probably got 10 more back so I wouldn't count that as paying since she got what she paid plus any ineterst it may have made while the Gov't had it.

Reply #22 Top

Tired in general, I've been fairly busy lately with classes, tests/hw, and non school things.
End of quote

Well kepp it up, we need to raise the education level of this nation. just make sure to get some rest every once in a while.

Reply #23 Top

Well, i wouldn't say everyone, i would say someone. I have an aunt that has been living off the system for as far back as I can remember. As for her paying, she probably never really paid any taxes her entire life and if she did (besides sales taxes) she probably got 10 more back so I wouldn't count that as paying since she got what she paid plus any ineterst it may have made while the Gov't had it.
End of quote

 

She still pays into it though, no matter what she may get back. So, in the end it still isn't free. Well, okay, the homeless don't have to pay taxes. >_> :P

 

Well kepp it up, we need to raise the education level of this nation. just make sure to get some rest every once in a while.
End of quote

 

Yeah, I don't know. I've been sort of debating about changing one of my majors and minors (Journalism/Cultural Anthropology; Theatre arts/political science, respectively). I love Cultural Anthropology and Political Science, but I don't think they'll be much help since I plan on (ideally) primarily working in the film industry. That and I'm a bit cynical regarding the PoliSci. Mmm, the uni did just send out an email about a new Cinema Studies major starting winter term; I might look into it. Anyways, I'm veering off topic. Thanks for the kudos, btw.

 

~AJ