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Cow's Fire Torchbearer

Cow's Fire Torchbearer

How I cook my bacon!

This is a link to the guide I made for my Fire Torchbearer. If you go to the comment link at the end of the guide you will see a post by me linking the stratedgy guide to a replay of me playing Fire Torchbearer. I made the guide before replays were out -_-. Anyway feel free to debate about I am open to positive and negitive feedback!

Guide:

Replays:

 

8,756 views 55 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting Cowbuttzex, reply 20

Quoting nzac, reply 14Cow could you add a section to your guide about how and why you can control a lane early game?Nothing annoys me more than noobs playing TBs sitting behind towers in a 1 vs 1 situation in a lane (and not form dancing).

As long as you can get yourself into a winning position early in the game fire TB is ok. somehow alot of noobs like playing fire tb and do it badly, thinking that they will still be good above level 12 or possibly lower.

The ability to hold a lane early comes from fire circle and level 1 fire ball. This is why its imperitive you capture a flag by yourself and kill the enitre first creep wave this = level 2 TB. Form dancing, fire circle and fireball = almost unmatched DPS in the first few minutes of gameplay. I almost always win the first 1v1 match vs any demigod with Fire TB.


Quoting Lukas_A_79, reply 12Play your TB vs me as TB and stacked as...anything..... and get whatever teammate ya like = we win.

You talk a lot of shit for being under 50% win.

 
End of Cowbuttzex's quote

 

Okay, a lot of shit.... yeah 46% win or whatever, the losses are in Pro games. Sure, I could hunt out noob games and get them up to 60%...that means nothing to me.

I'd like to see how your Fire TB fares in a real game.

Ability to hold a lane with circle of fire 1 and firball 1.... meh. I've seen many try this and always UB or Hybrid/frost TB or tower rook or even Sedna can hold a lane better than that. Good luck while erebus bites your head off.

I've tried a stats TB build, and find lack of sustainability.... you either then max your hp build or mana or a little of both, but without an auto attack like UB, TB is quite useless without an early spell damage max.... Wasting an exp point for 100hp and 100mana, when at level 3/4 you can get unbreakable boots for 1500g and got more hp and mana stack than 3 stat level ups.

So with a stat build you can go for health.... but then lack damage. So you work on a damage build....lack health. Work on a mana build....why bother, your spells are weak until you get above level 14 or so because you been wasting your skill upgrades on stat stacking.....

IMHO permafrost>fire Aura. Because it debuffs enemy... If enemy attack speed/movement speed is debuffed then you get the same benefit as your own being buffed (they damage you less, and are slowed so you can get away if need be). It is also a gr8 benefit if you're facing more than 1 enemy.

Fire Aura is a waste if chosen instead of permafrost UNLESS you're planning to tag along with your allies a lot. The biggest benefit is to buff your allies in a gang situation.... But If you're like me and want to move around the map a lot causing a pain wherever you can, dishing out damage here there and everywhere, then you want permafrost....and don't forget the added mana buff too.

 

Reply #27 Top

Quoting Lukas_A_79, reply 26



Quoting Cowbuttzex,
reply 20

Quoting nzac, reply 14Cow could you add a section to your guide about how and why you can control a lane early game?Nothing annoys me more than noobs playing TBs sitting behind towers in a 1 vs 1 situation in a lane (and not form dancing).

As long as you can get yourself into a winning position early in the game fire TB is ok. somehow alot of noobs like playing fire tb and do it badly, thinking that they will still be good above level 12 or possibly lower.

The ability to hold a lane early comes from fire circle and level 1 fire ball. This is why its imperitive you capture a flag by yourself and kill the enitre first creep wave this = level 2 TB. Form dancing, fire circle and fireball = almost unmatched DPS in the first few minutes of gameplay. I almost always win the first 1v1 match vs any demigod with Fire TB.


Quoting Lukas_A_79, reply 12Play your TB vs me as TB and stacked as...anything..... and get whatever teammate ya like = we win.

You talk a lot of shit for being under 50% win.

 


 

Okay, a lot of shit.... yeah 46% win or whatever, the losses are in Pro games. Sure, I could hunt out noob games and get them up to 60%...that means nothing to me.

I'd like to see how your Fire TB fares in a real game.

Ability to hold a lane with circle of fire 1 and firball 1.... meh. I've seen many try this and always UB or Hybrid/frost TB or tower rook or even Sedna can hold a lane better than that. Good luck while erebus bites your head off.

I've tried a stats TB build, and find lack of sustainability.... you either then max your hp build or mana or a little of both, but without an auto attack like UB, TB is quite useless without an early spell damage max.... Wasting an exp point for 100hp and 100mana, when at level 3/4 you can get unbreakable boots for 1500g and got more hp and mana stack than 3 stat level ups.

So with a stat build you can go for health.... but then lack damage. So you work on a damage build....lack health. Work on a mana build....why bother, your spells are weak until you get above level 14 or so because you been wasting your skill upgrades on stat stacking.....

IMHO permafrost>fire Aura. Because it debuffs enemy... If enemy attack speed/movement speed is debuffed then you get the same benefit as your own being buffed (they damage you less, and are slowed so you can get away if need be). It is also a gr8 benefit if you're facing more than 1 enemy.

Fire Aura is a waste if chosen instead of permafrost UNLESS you're planning to tag along with your allies a lot. The biggest benefit is to buff your allies in a gang situation.... But If you're like me and want to move around the map a lot causing a pain wherever you can, dishing out damage here there and everywhere, then you want permafrost....and don't forget the added mana buff too.

 
End of Lukas_A_79's quote

-I would love to kill you with my torchbearer, come sit in my game, I play mostly pug games so unless I have a few good friends on I wont sit and play your premade with >40% win puggers.

-On a side note, I have no problem with Ice TB and I run him in almost all games greater than 3v3 because he is more useful IMO in those matches. I find in smaller matches the complete and utter lack of damage Ice TB does early-mid game is hard to deal with. When I go Ice TB in 3v3 I get less xp and can't compete in 1v1 situations. So I agree completely with your statement that Ice TB is superior to Fire in certain types of matches but lacks in 3v3 or smaller games.

-Like I said the game wasn't a good example of a stat build, it ended to quickly. Stat increases really don't add up after 2 points, 4-5 points is when its  more noticable as you would have 400 or greater hp. The main reason behind stat build is to have a higher than normal hp TB. I also wrote this guide months ago, honestly I can say I rarely do a stat TB and opt for the fire aura. I will continue to post games with the stat increase and until I get horribly whooped for using stats over aura (which I HIGHLY doubt will happen) I will stick with that it is viable but perhaps not ideal. I find it more of a personal preference, hp vs movement speed, the attack damage really isn't that big of a deal when you will be doing most of your damage with spells and your teammates should be good enough to live without the boosts of the Fire Aura.

Reply #28 Top

Quoting obscenitor, reply 23



Quoting Cowbuttzex,
reply 21
Link to a stat build for TB. Not the best example because game didn't last and I deviated from my Build Order, but its a stat build none the less.

http://www.gamereplays.org/demigod/replays.php?game=51&tab=upcoming&show=details&id=97540I'm sorry, but I just don't get it.


You took one point of stats, that's about 100 mana, 100 health, .3 mana per second (which is useless with BoTS), .2 health per second, and less attack speed and weapon damage than a single point of fire aura.

Fire aura would have given you and your team 5% more run speed that game, 10% if you count hte very end there where you got stats 2.

 

I'm not saying you can't win with non-ideal builds, I'm saying that one of the biggest team benefits of a fire TB is the group run speed and it's not too shabby as a personal benefit either. When you go stats you reduce your own damage for a paltry amount of hp, armor, and mana which you don't even use with your BoTS build.

 

Lemme reiterate that I'm not being hard on you or saying you cannot win with stats. I can go through any replay of mine and find no small amount of mistakes, I've been told numerous times how I can do things better.

What I'd like for you to do is give a logical explanation of how 300 health and 75 armor are better than 15% run speed for yourself, 15% run speed for your team, and 15% attack speed for your team.

 

 

-edit- Meh, I can't get my tone to come out right, I just sound like an ass here so I won't pursue this any further (the post beneath this one was written before this edit), but I stand by my criticism and I warn anyone new to DG to never, ever take stats over fire aura. It's not an acceptable tradeoff and you hurt your team by doing so.
End of obscenitor's quote

I don't mind the debate Obscenitor, everyone has an opinion. Your not cursing at me or calling me a noob like others in this forum but simply speaking your mind.

Anyway that game didn't last.... The main reason I use stats is for the hp, as you can see from the items I tend to hp stack. It addes a little more hp that makes me last just a bit longer in battle, take another shot from a tower, cast one more fireball, etc.... I am not saying stat increases are a better choice than aura but that its simply viable.

I personally use Aura over stats almost every game. I will use stats periodically when I play TB for a while and post the results if the game last longer than this one since you cannot clearly see the benifit.

Reply #29 Top

-On a side note, I have no problem with Ice TB and I run him in almost all games greater than 3v3 because he is more useful IMO in those matches. I find in smaller matches the complete and utter lack of damage Ice TB does early-mid game is hard to deal with. When I go Ice TB in 3v3 I get less xp and can't compete in 1v1 situations. So I agree completely with your statement that Ice TB is superior to Fire in certain types of matches but lacks in 3v3 or smaller games.

-Like I said the game wasn't a good example of a stat build, it ended to quickly. Stat increases really don't add up after 2 points, 4-5 points is when its more noticable as you would have 400 or greater hp. The main reason behind stat build is to have a higher than normal hp TB. I also wrote this guide months ago, honestly I can say I rarely do a stat TB and opt for the fire aura. I will continue to post games with the stat increase and until I get horribly whooped for using stats over aura (which I HIGHLY doubt will happen) I will stick with that it is viable but perhaps not ideal. I find it more of a personal preference, hp vs movement speed, the attack damage really isn't that big of a deal when you will be doing most of your damage with spells and your teammates should be good enough to live without the boosts of the Fire Aura.
End of quote

 

I agree completely. For me it depends on the way the game is going, what DGs they are using and their style. If I get a rook ingame I'll max rain of ice and Frost nova as soon as I can to piss all over his tower farm. If I'm getting the likes of erebus, well shatters and fireball come in handy.

 

If I'm going up against a (good/pro)UB and there's a UB on my team, then I'll look at fire Aura to buff his melee, and I'll health stack and stat upgrades then.... My objective would be to build myself as bait... I played a couple of games where my TB had about 10k health, and the UB kept spitting and grasping and all that...but couldn't wear me down. Add a robust health or two and I can simply stand there and auto attack until he starts to flee or my ally comes for the kill.

I've tried fire builds, but find the ice debuffs and interrupts and ranged AOE more harrowing for the enemy, but then I like to push with gradual pressure, rather than an agressive brawling style.....

As I said earlier Cow, you'd prolly win...but then maybe not :-)

It's just good to see another player who doesn't dismiss TB as weak..... Nice debate anyway. Oh, and I would like a premade, but do not have one. I play VS the people I know as much as With them, and will join just about any game as a pugger. I guess Me + any Australian team would be a premade as I've played a lot with the small AUS community.

If I see a game with U hosting I'll surely join VS or With you, just for fun... Then when I lose.... I'll hang up my hat :-)

Reply #30 Top

Anyway that game didn't last.... The main reason I use stats is for the hp, as you can see from the items I tend to hp stack. It addes a little more hp that makes me last just a bit longer in battle, take another shot from a tower, cast one more fireball, etc.... I am not saying stat increases are a better choice than aura but that its simply viable.

I personally use Aura over stats almost every game. I will use stats periodically when I play TB for a while and post the results if the game last longer than this one since you cannot clearly see the benifit.

End of quote
I just feel that the benefit of HP is so much easier to quantify than run speed that it's deceptively appealing. Say you do eat a fireball, spit, or whatever and escape with 5 HP because you got 400 HP from stats, that's easy to attribute to your skill choice, but getting out of melee range two seconds sooner or getting back into range in time to fireball someone escaping into towers because of the run speed is sometimes difficult to attribute directly to the run speed but still immensely beneficial.

On a personal level I can see the appeal. I wouldn't do it myself, but I can see how someone else might. However fire TB lacks attack the speed debuffs, interrupts, snares, and stuns which other DGs (namely frost TB) bring to the table and he's only got one ability to make up for it: Fire Aura.

When you've got giants on the field running and swinging 15% faster it's a really big deal, and it's an even bigger deal when your team converges in a 3v3 and up and your rook can actually outrun someone or your UB becomes totally inescapable because of that run speed.

I dunno, I just think that without Fire Aura a fire build is extremely one-dimensional and less of a benefit to a team than pretty much any other spec or even DG. I don't mean to say fire TB isn't good, because if he could autoattack correctly I'd play him constantly, I just mean that fire TB without fire aura is like UB without foul grasp.

 

 

I guess what really got me going is that you ended up picking up Boots of Speed in that replay you linked. Those boots cost 1k gold and eat up an item slot. If you had two points of fire aura you could have just gotten footman's sabatons for nearly identical health, saved 400 gold, and given your team 10% run and attack speed... and that's assuming you're on a budget which won't allow you to get an even more powerful item than those boots.

I realize that's not a completely fair comparison because you got them later in the game than you did stats and the early HP matter more than late HP, but I still feel the team and reinforcement benefit outweigh it.

 

Lastly lemme highlight that the aura affects reinfocements and reinforcements really do more damage than most people seem to think. For example priests do 200'ish damage every single hit to towers and 20'ish to DGs. One nice thing about TB is his capacity to clear out a creep wave instantly, allowing reinforcements to focus fire DGs, and that can end up being hundreds of damage that an enemy DG might not expect to take.

Reply #31 Top

Quoting obscenitor, reply 30

Anyway that game didn't last.... The main reason I use stats is for the hp, as you can see from the items I tend to hp stack. It addes a little more hp that makes me last just a bit longer in battle, take another shot from a tower, cast one more fireball, etc.... I am not saying stat increases are a better choice than aura but that its simply viable.


I personally use Aura over stats almost every game. I will use stats periodically when I play TB for a while and post the results if the game last longer than this one since you cannot clearly see the benifit.
I just feel that the benefit of HP is so much easier to quantify than run speed that it's deceptively appealing. Say you do eat a fireball, spit, or whatever and escape with 5 HP because you got 400 HP from stats, that's easy to attribute to your skill choice, but getting out of melee range two seconds sooner or getting back into range in time to fireball someone escaping into towers because of the run speed is sometimes difficult to attribute directly to the run speed but still immensely beneficial.


On a personal level I can see the appeal. I wouldn't do it myself, but I can see how someone else might. However fire TB lacks attack the speed debuffs, interrupts, snares, and stuns which other DGs (namely frost TB) bring to the table and he's only got one ability to make up for it: Fire Aura.

When you've got giants on the field running and swinging 15% faster it's a really big deal, and it's an even bigger deal when your team converges in a 3v3 and up and your rook can actually outrun someone or your UB becomes totally inescapable because of that run speed.

I dunno, I just think that without Fire Aura a fire build is extremely one-dimensional and less of a benefit to a team than pretty much any other spec or even DG. I don't mean to say fire TB isn't good, because if he could autoattack correctly I'd play him constantly, I just mean that fire TB without fire aura is like UB without foul grasp.

 

 

I guess what really got me going is that you ended up picking up Boots of Speed in that replay you linked. Those boots cost 1k gold and eat up an item slot. If you had two points of fire aura you could have just gotten footman's sabatons for nearly identical health, saved 400 gold, and given your team 10% run and attack speed... and that's assuming you're on a budget which won't allow you to get an even more powerful item than those boots.

I realize that's not a completely fair comparison because you got them later in the game than you did stats and the early HP matter more than late HP, but I still feel the team and reinforcement benefit outweigh it.

 

Lastly lemme highlight that the aura affects reinfocements and reinforcements really do more damage than most people seem to think. For example priests do 200'ish damage every single hit to towers and 20'ish to DGs. One nice thing about TB is his capacity to clear out a creep wave instantly, allowing reinforcements to focus fire DGs, and that can end up being hundreds of damage that an enemy DG might not expect to take.
End of obscenitor's quote

I always get boots of speed regaurdless what TB build I am running. Ice, Fire, Hybrid all benefit from it.

Fire Aura is undoubtably the clear choice when it comes to playing Fire TB. Stat increases are just an altneritive to them like I said I almost always do Fire Aura now but stats is an interesting deviation to the norm.

Reply #32 Top

If HP > Armor > Recovery Rate > Damage

Wouldn't 345 health + 305 mana + 75 armor + 6% attack speed + 18 weapon damage > 15% attack speed + 30 weapon damage?

In otherwords, is HP stacking realy >>>>> Damage?

At what point are you better off getting extra damage versus extra HP?

Picking Fire Aura over Stats seems to counter the general beleif that HP > Damage.

Or is 15% run speed + attack speed bonus to teamates sufficient to overcome the HP/Mana/Armor boost?

Reply #33 Top

Quoting Zygwen, reply 32
If HP > Armor > Recovery Rate > Damage

Wouldn't 345 health + 305 mana + 75 armor + 6% attack speed + 18 weapon damage > 15% attack speed + 30 weapon damage?

In otherwords, is HP stacking realy >>>>> Damage?

At what point are you better off getting extra damage versus extra HP?

Picking Fire Aura over Stats seems to counter the general beleif that HP > Damage.

Or is 15% run speed + attack speed bonus to teamates sufficient to overcome the HP/Mana/Armor boost?
End of Zygwen's quote

 

Some good thoughts! The overall buffs (to yourself) imo are about the same minus the movement speed which imo is the best part of fire aura.

Reply #34 Top

I believe there's almost always a skill that's more beneficial then +stats. The exception might be very late in game.

Reply #36 Top

Quoting Renz0kuken, reply 35
Hmm never tried stats for TB, but I'd also like to see how my torcher stacks up to yours.
End of Renz0kuken's quote

Would be fun!

Reply #37 Top

Quoting Zygwen, reply 32
If HP > Armor > Recovery Rate > Damage

Wouldn't 345 health + 305 mana + 75 armor + 6% attack speed + 18 weapon damage > 15% attack speed + 30 weapon damage?

In otherwords, is HP stacking realy >>>>> Damage?

At what point are you better off getting extra damage versus extra HP?

Picking Fire Aura over Stats seems to counter the general beleif that HP > Damage.

Or is 15% run speed + attack speed bonus to teamates sufficient to overcome the HP/Mana/Armor boost?
End of Zygwen's quote

 

Can you really put a price on speed in this game?

 

It seems priceless to be able to switch to fire form to help your teamates and yourself escape a losing battle.  Even though Fire TB's AA is broken, you can still help your allies chase down enemies and pop off a final fireball if the situation is reversed.  IMHO Aura > Stats, and once the AA is fixed years from now it'll be a bigger difference.

Reply #38 Top

Quoting Zygwen, reply 32
If HP > Armor > Recovery Rate > Damage

Wouldn't 345 health + 305 mana + 75 armor + 6% attack speed + 18 weapon damage > 15% attack speed + 30 weapon damage?

In otherwords, is HP stacking realy >>>>> Damage?

At what point are you better off getting extra damage versus extra HP?

Picking Fire Aura over Stats seems to counter the general beleif that HP > Damage.

Or is 15% run speed + attack speed bonus to teamates sufficient to overcome the HP/Mana/Armor boost?
End of Zygwen's quote

 

if you use that rationale.. wouldnt stats be the number one choice for every assassin every time it comes up?

You stack hp through gear, not skill points.

Reply #39 Top

Ok this build has so many holes. Blade of The serpent isn't worth it IMO. I play a speed fire build that has so many more out. For example:

 

1: Favor item: Speed Anklet

2: Focus on Capping flags early on so you can keep up warscore. Never go below 1k hp while a reg is around. DO NOT GO SHOPPING TILL RANK 3. Which you should get Curr1 and Tower 1. ALso Boots of speed. Provided you haven't died those are all affordable

3. Whenever Fire Aura is available as a skill you get it.

4. DO NOT SHOP MORE THAN ONCE till Rank 6. Which then you get angels/cata's. Provided someone got priests. If your way ahead in warscore go for those Proc boots 50% increase speed.

5. LAST AND THIS IMPORTANT. At level 10 you should be 2 levels (unless there is a reg with Heavens wrath or TB) ahead of opposing team. And at level 10 your movement speed should be 9.20-9.8 without procs or wand of speed. Meaning no one can touch you.

 

DON'T quote me by the way. I HAVE TERRIBLE MEMORY OF ITEM NAMES LOL.

Reply #40 Top

Quoting Xenogenic, reply 39
Ok this build has so many holes. Blade of The serpent isn't worth it IMO. I play a speed fire build that has so many more out. For example:

 

1: Favor item: Speed Anklet

2: Focus on Capping flags early on so you can keep up warscore. Never go below 1k hp while a reg is around. DO NOT GO SHOPPING TILL RANK 3. Which you should get Curr1 and Tower 1. ALso Boots of speed. Provided you haven't died those are all affordable

3. Whenever Fire Aura is available as a skill you get it.

4. DO NOT SHOP MORE THAN ONCE till Rank 6. Which then you get angels/cata's. Provided someone got priests. If your way ahead in warscore go for those Proc boots 50% increase speed.

5. LAST AND THIS IMPORTANT. At level 10 you should be 2 levels (unless there is a reg with Heavens wrath or TB) ahead of opposing team. And at level 10 your movement speed should be 9.20-9.8 without procs or wand of speed. Meaning no one can touch you.

 

DON'T quote me by the way. I HAVE TERRIBLE MEMORY OF ITEM NAMES LOL.
End of Xenogenic's quote

I have had a rediculous amount of success with this build, to each his own I guess.

Reply #41 Top

Quoting Xenogenic, reply 39

4. DO NOT SHOP MORE THAN ONCE till Rank 6. Which then you get angels/cata's. Provided someone got priests. If your way ahead in warscore go for those Proc boots 50% increase speed.
End of Xenogenic's quote

I don't think this is right actually. If you are double up in a lane, or can lock it and get back quick, keeping your gear up to date is a good thing to do.  Control is still very important, but you will waste more time dying because you are under-geared than you will getting an extra trip to the shop in.  TB with 4500 gold loses to TB with 0 gold and 4500 gold worth of gear.

Reply #43 Top

So I watched the come back replay you posted elsewhere, I assume this is the same. I actually really like how you were using circle of flame to trigger blade of the serpent, but I think it also directly caused some of your early deaths, you'd get in too close to drop a circle, and die trying to get out.

I recently played a few games with this build:

  1. Fireball
  2. Fire Aura
  3. Rain of Frost
  4. Fireball
  5. Rain of Frost
  6. Fire Aura
  7. Fireball
  8. Frost Nova
  9. fire Aura
  10. Fireball
  11. Rain of Frost
  12. Rain of Frost
  13. Frost Nova
  14. ...

Which is fairly similar in skill progression, but uses Rain of Frost as your mana battery effect, and also has frost nova for control.  Unlike some similar builds, it goes really light on the frost side of the tree until 11, but is a bit easier to 'dance' with.

 

Reply #44 Top

I hate how long it takes TB to switch forms, otherwise I'd use Zech's build. :(

Reply #45 Top

It can be frustrating, but I also find it exciting.  There is something satisfying about managing those 'pauses' with him to get the most out of a combat.

Reply #46 Top

It can be frustrating, but I also find it exciting.  There is something satisfying about managing those 'Times when torchbearer sits around for several seconds playing with his "staff"' with him to get the most out of a combat.
End of quote

 

Fixed?

Reply #47 Top

Quoting Zechnophobe, reply 43
So I watched the come back replay you posted elsewhere, I assume this is the same. I actually really like how you were using circle of flame to trigger blade of the serpent, but I think it also directly caused some of your early deaths, you'd get in too close to drop a circle, and die trying to get out.

I recently played a few games with this build:


Fireball
Fire Aura
Rain of Frost
Fireball
Rain of Frost
Fire Aura
Fireball
Frost Nova
fire Aura
Fireball
Rain of Frost
Rain of Frost
Frost Nova
...
Which is fairly similar in skill progression, but uses Rain of Frost as your mana battery effect, and also has frost nova for control.  Unlike some similar builds, it goes really light on the frost side of the tree until 11, but is a bit easier to 'dance' with.

 
End of Zechnophobe's quote

Usually I get away with dropping circles when I want this game I just got punished repeatedly. Anyway ill continue to be agressive with my circle use even if it cost me a few games. I should really try a hybrid build out though it sounds like fun.

Reply #48 Top

with rain of ice and frost nova, then the deep freeze shatter is great! You frost nova, then rain, then just before frost nova wears off, bam! hit them with the deep freeze stun to cause damage. It removes the debuffs of rain and nova on enemy dg, inflicting some 300 dam (encreasing with level) per effect removed. And if you max it you can start dealing 1300 fireballs too.

Reply #49 Top

Deep freeze should pretty much never be used for damage.  If you've put more than one point into it, you're giving up something else that's much more important for pure frost, and there's always something more important to do than doing a piddling amount of extra damage and removing all of your critical debuffs.

 

Not to mention frost is so hard to get away from in general, stopping to cast while chasing someone is just asking to let them get away.

Reply #50 Top

drop a 1300 fireball as they approach, then drop to icee mode - then  nova, rain, and deeep frz.... watch their health drop some 3000 or more in just 3 seconds. when u hit the nova the melee has just begun and they not expecting to be hurt some 2k more just so fast.....

Then chase for the kill in ice mode, permafrost still debuffs thier speed and you can give them a brain freeze to death, not to mention another rain of ice ranged to make sure after the short cooldown.

But trying to kill pros with this is extremely difficult, though it usually eventuates with your torchie holding his ground while they back off, so long as you matching or exceeeding them for level.