Comment #114

you're able to "know" but that's something only possible for those who "know" what you claim to "know"?

know how, know way.

if i had a dollar for every time any of at least a dozen nuns lectured me and my classmates about the person who wound up not only dead seconds after receiving absolution but damned as well due to something they did or thought while being hit by a runaway bus, loose crucific falling off wall, stray bullet, etc., i could produce my own televangelist broadcast and become even wealthier. specially if you toss in the people who managed to accidentally rip off their scapulars (a free ticket to heaven in most circumstances, but ya never really know, do ya?) in the process of being instantly, unexpectedly and fatally smashed, crushed, punctured or blown to bits.

Are there not four different accounts of creation?

Of good works you write:

and then say

lula posts:

KFC posts:

Then, you hold up 16th century Protestant dogma over Sacred Scripture.

this is the fear being taught by the RCC that I spoke of earlier.  It's all about fear and guilt to keep you coming.  Some stay as a result of these teachings out of fear and/or guilt, some see right thru it as bogus because that's exactly what it is.  The funny thing is, you never see Christ lecture anyone.  He creates in them a thirst but he never nags or lectures. 

 nooooo.  Where are you getting that from?  The account of Creation can be found in the book of Genesis.  The first two chapters only written by the same person. 

That's still not the question I answered.  We were talking trials and tribulations when you asked that question of me earlier.  This question you asked more recently was in relation to Lula and I discussing works to "earn" salvation.  Two diff animals.   I replied earlier to your question about how do we know if we are strong enough before a trial happens.  I said we can't really know until we go thru these trials.  We can't really know beforehand.  You don't know what a teabag is made of (how strong is it?) until you put it in hot water.  

So now I have to ask you...what are you talking about now "beforehand?"  Before you were talking trials.   Before what?

Christ did His part and we must do ours...Scripture teaches that salvation is by faith and good works. St.James says we are justified by works, not by faith alone. 

So, Yes, one must definitely do something (that is, persevere in the faith and keep from committing grevious sin) to attain salvation.

Good works (in charity) are obedience to God and His command, as well as prayer...one must be obedient if we want to attain salvation.

Ok, maybe that's my fault. Before trials or attempting to do works.

Good question.  Jesus didn't just claim.  He backed up his claims with actions.  As far as being crazy?  Yes, some thought he was.  Mostly the leaders of the Jews whose toes were being stepped on.  They thought he was very crazy and therefore had him killed.  To get rid of him was to get rid of a problem he was becoming to them.  C.S. Lewis speaks about this.  He said either Jesus was a lunatic, a liar, or he was Lord.  Either he was deceived, a deceiver or deity.  Your choice. 

I rely on my faith because God has opened my eyes to him.  I absolutely know he's alive and well.   Even so called believers do as well way down deep... even if they don't want to think along those lines.  They wish to believe there is no God so they can make themselves god giving themselves permission to do whatever.  See, if there's no God, then they are free (in their mind) to do whatever they wish to do with no accountability because they have made themselves as deity. 

His fingerprints are all over the place.  Think about the creation of a tiny baby in the womb.  Think about the process and the individual DNA,  which is a very personal road map,  that each one of us has.  It's completely diff than anyone else's.  Think about how the heartbeat starts very early on as the cells begin to divide.  This is just a fluke?  An accident? 

Every creation has to have a creator.  That's just the way it is.  You can believe it or disbelieve it.  I just happen to believe it. 

I'm kind of confused.  I thought we already hashed this out?  You asked me how do we know how strong our faith is before we go thru trials right?  And I answered we can't really know until we go thru these trials.  That's why God gives us a testing time now and again.  By the testing of our faith we can know.  The testing of our faith produces patience and perserverence.  It helps our faith grow stronger as we see God bring us thru these trials.  He makes himself known. 

You must have heard the saying that God whispers to us in our good times but shouts to us in our pain?  It's during these times of pain that we draw closer to God and can actually hear him better than we can during the good times. 

As far as the "attempting to do works" and how it relates to faith, I'm not sure what you're asking.  But faith and works work in tandem.  Because of our saving faith we wish to do good works for the God who saved us.  He saved us to do good works to glorify him. Our works are evidence of our faith.   Our works should glorify God, not ourselves.   Without works how can one know about our faith?  Faith is not something we just keep to ourselves and hide away.  Our works point to God and shows our faith in Him.  Our works justify us before man.  That's how they know we are believers. 

kfc wrotes:

Which "one" is that?

As far as the Catholic Sacrament of confessing of sins, it's Biblical..Scripture teaches that the confessing of sins is a usual requisite for obtaining forgiveness. Unfortunately, Confession was one of the 7 Sacraments, along with the sacrificial, ministerial priesthood, that Luther threw out when he established Protestantism.

kingbee posts:

KFC POSTS:

This is pure baloney. You obviously do not understand the nature and purpose of the Sacrament of Confession.

This sounds kind of strange...is it biblical? 

Most can tell we are followers of Christ by the way we love one another.

and that's exactly what I'm saying.  Love is an action word.  It's not about emotion.  That can't be seen.  Love is to be put in action.  Love means doing something for someone when you don't necessarily want to.  Love is patient, love is kind, love is doing. 

When we do a good deed for another, we are doing it in love because most of the time it takes us away from what we could be doing for self.  Love is selfless. 

Jesus said, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." Love is doing good works for the greater glory of God.

isn't that what I just said?????

Funny, I always thought love was an emotion. So much for all my psychology classes.

Well said.

Which completely flies in the face of the whole "election" concept, doesn't it?

The idea of "election" stems from a misundertanding of scripture taken out of context, not from scripture itself.

Thanks, but yer wrong here. They weren't in grace in the first place. Nothing in the scriptures says that they were and that's a fatal flaw in your thinking here. Before Christ there was no grace. That's the whole point of the New Testament, which somehow far too many just don't seem to get.

Again, a complete misunderstanding of the scrupture as written. The word righteous is the key here, as is the word understands. This does not proclaim "election" it proclaims the fact that all are lost without accepting the gift of grace throuogh Christ.

There is absolutely no scripture that declares the election idea unless one takes it out of context and miscontrues it's meaning. None.

God gave us all the ability to make a choice, right from the beginning. That is the whole point of Genesis, there is no other. Genesis is the preparation (remember, everything in context and as a whole) for the choice. It presents the fact that we had made wrong choices and the cost of doing so. That is the lesson it teaches. The New Testament presents us the choice yet again (after it was presented many times throughout the Old Testament) and challenges us to choose rightly.

There is nothing at all that proclaims election. That's nothing more than misunderstanding brought about by ego.

Please examine the word faith. It really is the key to this whole thing and seems to be the one you misunderstand here.

You did not come to have faith without choosing to do so. You examined, you studyed, you explored, and ultimately you believed. These are things that you chose to do. I say it again, God does not want robots, he wants those who chose to come to Him. Otherwise it would mean nothing to Him. How much more simple can it be?

By choice. God does NOT select who will believe and who won't. What would be the point ot that? Examine that question carefully. What would be the point? God is not illogical, quite the opposite. Examine the idea of election in light of that single question and you may find just how egotistical that idea truly is.

Yes actually there is a huge difference. Two different missions, two different steps in the plan. It's only ego (or a lack of understanding) that causes some to believe that God chose them over other people. It's sheer nonsense and only serves to elevate (in their minds) those who believe that rubbish. 

Such beliefs come about from subjective reading of the scripture, not from objective reading. One should not allow ego to interpret scripture (or anything else) while reading, which is exactly where this idea came from.

Here you misunderstand what I wrote. Christ never spoke of His sacrifice directly. He taught us what sacrifice meant and of the value of outting others before yourself. He did speak of rebuilding the temple and such, but in a way that it would only be understood after the fact for tha sake of teaching. He never once bragged about it or even spoke of it directly. For good reason as to do so would only serve the ego not God.

I like it.

I agree that anger doesn't have a place in the discussion, but perhaps their anger stemmed from frustration with your misinterpretation of the scriptures themselves? Just a thought. Frankly, I have seen you totally misinterpret many things posted in this thread so it doesn't surprise me that you also misinterpret scriptire. That is not an insult at all, just an observation. It's a very common thing actually. If it weren't we wouldn't have so many denominations, would we?

People often come to a conclusion and then find that which supports it. Even when they don't realize that's what they've done. They can even attribute motives, thoughts, and feelings to other people in an attempt to justify in their minds why those people don't see it as they do. Example:

Unless you can read minds and souls, this comes from your own ego as an attempt to reconcile why they don't see things as you do. Hardly a Godly exercise in my opinion.

Again, there is nothing at all in scripture, in context, that supports election. Nothing at all. Only out of context, misinterpreted verses combined with ego can invent such a concept in an attempt to set one above "those people". It's nothing short of religious bigotry and is hardly a Christian attitude when viewed in that vein.

Please refer to the specific scripture that states this.

Oh wait, there isn't one.

To say Adam was born sinless is to put him on the same level as Christ, which is simply wrong. Nothing in the scripture states this, you made it up (or believed someone else who did).

Not sure what the "didn't chose to be born" thing is about. Makes no sense in the context of the discussion. By your own interpretation, Adam CHOSE to disobey. That is the point. Choice. That's the whole point of that lesson, to be related to the choice presented in the NT. It's obvious and quite simple.

Remember, the ten commandments God gave to Moses were conditions of action, just as was the choice given to Adam and Eve. And once again Man proved incapable of obeying. Don't you see the relation? These lessons lead to the same place. One can't be saved through one's own physical actions, but only by choosing to believe in God and believing that Christ's action on the cross was the only thing that could do it.

In this context the words choice and belief are not simple. They denote that one fully realizes their own nature, and understands that Christ's punishment on the cross is exactly what they themselves deserve, and find grace through gratitude that He chose to suffer that punishment in their stead. One must not simply realize it mentally, but in their very soul. That is the choice presented. It goes far beyong a simple action.

If God simply wanted to choose who would be saved and who wouldn't, what exactly would be the whole point of Christ's tourture in the first place? The idea is just silly.

MM posts:

Good question and the answer is Yes. Not only because God has no "favorites",  but also because, just like Adam and Eve, He gave us free will to know, love and serve Him by obeying His commandments or not. 

KFC posts:

MM posts:

Right. The Jews weren't in grace and therefore can't lose what they didn't have. They would be justified by God though as long as they remained faithful to Him and obedient to His Law and commands...we know how that went.

kfc posts:

mm posts:

Absolutely true, Romans 3 doesn't teach the  "election" concept. 

Right...St.Paul is taking phrases from Psalm 14:1-3 and in his own style uses them to reinforce his teaching that all men sin. Even the best of them dedicated to God like Noah, Abraham, etc. sin.

Only by faith and God's grace can we strive to be sinless..."become perfect". More to the point, your use of the word "accepting" the gift of grace is paramount. God offers His gift of faith and grace and we have free will to accept or reject at any time.That's why our justification is an on-going process throughout life.