No I totally understand.  I don't feel like I have to 'prove' Messianic Judaism to anyone.  I do however, like to have a hearty discussion from time to time. 

Well, I figured I'd PM mainly because I am in process of doing a write up.  I may post it here or maybe post it on my own thread, time will tell.  I don't have any kind of ETA for a write up as I have another objective to first finish.

As to the first question, I think it’s clear that given God’s specific requirements of Lev. 4, that only certain animals could be offered, and that Christ couldn’t have been the literal, physical sin offering in that context.

However, having said that….the sin offerings…sacrifices of Lev. 4 were part of salvation history and as such were a type; a sign; a prelude, a shadow of what was to come….namely, Christ’s Sacrifice. That’s because the burnt sin offerings of animals were imperfect sacrifices and didn’t redeem the Israelites from sin…..they would remain though until the prophesied Emmanuel, God with us, came and “made all things new”. God Incarnate, Christ, the Messias did come.  At this point we come to understand that God’s salvation plan includes the whole world not just that of the Jews…and salvation history bears this out. 

Where the High Priests sin offerings in Lev. 4 were meant for only the Israelite people, Christ's, the Eternal High Priest, Sacrifice of Himself on the Cross was the ultimate, perfect sin offering…for the whole world.

Yes, the sin sacrifices were fulfilled by Christ, but where does the inventive qualifier "based on the requirements of Lev. 4" come from when as we've already determined God's specific requirements as per Lev. 4 required certain animals be sacrificed, and thus rules persons out?

Christ's Sacrifice fulfilled the ceremonial precepts of the OT worship because the Mosaic law was ordered to the sacrificial worship by the blood of certain animals and Christ offered the one true Sacrifice by offering His own Blood dying for all mankind. Col. 2:17 tells us these things of the Old Law were only a shadow of what was to come, that is, the New Law promulgated by Christ, the Eternal High Priest. A shadow indicates that a body is present. The Mosaic Law, the shadow, had the function of marking the way until the coming of Christ; but now that He has come and promulgated the New Law, it wouldn't make sense to give greater importance to the shadow than to the Body which casts it.

hmmmm....don't know why the quotations came up like that, but hopefully you can understand it.

lula posts #46

First, are you just going to ignore Leviticus 6:18 where the Lord God Himself put the limitation of the length of the Old Mosaic Covenant by using these words, "in your generations"? 

"The males only of the race of Aaron shall eat it. It shall be an ordinance everlasting in your generations concerning the sacrifice of the Lord:..."

The Old Mosaic Covenant wasn't meant to be "everlasting" as unto the end of the world.....

From the Douay Rheims...Exodus 31:16-18, "Let the children of Israel keep the sabbath, observing the sabbath in their generations. It is everlasting covenant Between me and the children of Israel, and a perpetual sign. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and in the seventh he ceased from work. And the Lord, when he had ended these words in mount Sinai, gave to Moses two stone tables of testimony, written with the finger of God."

I've also seen it as "Therefore the people of Isreal shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a perpetual covenant. The KJV uses the word "perpetual".

The phrase "perpetual covenant" is "berith olam". The Hebrew word "olam" does not necessarily mean a duration of into the endless future or until the end of the world but often means for a long time. Even if it's translated "ever" or "everlasting", the total time of duration is conditioned by the object in view and its literary context as I have already pointed out.   

Lula why do you keep bringing salvation back up? I nor Torah have ever made the claim that keeping Torah will yield in Salvation.  That only comes by faith.  Please, show me where in the Torah it says, do these sacrifices, statutes, ordinances etc and you'll receive Salvation.  You won't because it isn't in there.

If it was the prelude then or shadow then he fulfilled it and I am asking how since the requirements are very clear in Lev 4 and Deut 12.

Quit rationalizing it, you either can answer my question or you cannot.  So far you have have not been able to show me the requirements (made by G-D) being fulfilled.

Hmmmm,  don't know where you are pulling this 'convenient' definition from Lula.  This from the STRONGS:

Or lolam {o-lawm'}; from alam; properly, concealed, i.e. The vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always -- alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare netsach, ad.

The relevance to 'long time' is another way to explain: eternity, eternal, everlasting, always, etc.... it's a really long time.

Since you proved only your bias reasoning to 'long time' definition of Olam, I am not ignoring Lev 6:18?  Seems like you are the one trying to change the definition, not me.

LULA POSTS:

I first learned about “the New and Everlasting Covenant” from the Church…during the consecration the priest repeats the words of Christ at every Mass and later, being interested in apologetics, from reading the Holy Bible.

 We know the word "Covenant" , “Brit”, signifies a contract agreement which in Scripture could include political alliances but most often its use is mainly theological to express the alliance between God and His people in the course of salvation history.

The prophetic idea of a New Covenant emerges in Osee 2:18-24 and these verses relate to the espousal of Christ with His Church which shall never be dissolved.

During Lent a few years ago, Fr.John Myler wrote an article about the New Covenant in salvation history.

The first time we learned of the promise of Redemption was to Adam and Eve after their fall ….then the covenant God made with Noe and his family……then the promises God gave to Abraham and his seed…the freedom won and lost by the Israelites who were led out slavery….the long history of salvation would culminate in the hour of the Christ….  

Of the new and everlasting covenant Jesus during His agony proclaims, “What should I say? Father, save me from this hour?’ But it was for this purpose that I came to this hour.”  The hour had come…..after the many centuries….The hour had come….after the long epochs of the covenants of old.

The New Covenant is not the same as the covenant of the fathers but one written on hearts, and therefore spiritual ……The Lord Himself had said it through the prophet Jeremias 31:31-40; 32:38-42. “The days are coming …..when I will make a new covenant.” ….Written not on stone tablets but I will place the law within them and write it upon their hearts.

The New Covenant would be eternal and it would be established in the Person and at the “hour” of Jesus Christ. The New covenant would be a living relationship between God and the Mystical Body of Christ; yet it would live only because of His death. The New and Everlasting Covenant would be sealed in the Blood of Christ. In the hour of death, a life giving relationship between God and mankind would find its never-ending Source.

After so many centuries of salvation history from the waters of the Flood to the water that poured forth from His wounded side…from the mountain of Abraham’s sacrifice to the hill of Calvary…from the temple of Jerusalem to the temple of His Flesh….at long last…”the hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified”….

The first Old Covenant was made through Moses and ratified by animal sacrifices. The New Covenant is ratified by Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross. In Hebrews, St.Paul reflects on all God’s ancient covenants ….with Noe 11:7…Abraham 6:13-20…with Moses 3:1-6….with David and the Prophets 11:32-33 and Levi 7:4-17 but especially on the New Covenant of the Messias chapter 8.

St.Paul says the Old Covenant was a shadow of the new 10:1, imperfect 9:7, and obsolete 8:13. The New Covenant is superior 7:22, enacted on the basis of superior promises 8:6, faultless 8:7….a new and living way 10:20.

Christ is the hope of the promise made to Abraham 6:19. He is the Eternal High Priest superior to Levi because He is a priest by divine oath 7:20-21 according to the order of Mechisdedech 7:17, who was superior to both Abraham and Levi 7:1-10. As mediator, high priest and victim, Christ enters the Heavenly sanctuary only once to sacrifice Himself for the destruction of sin 8:1-5; 9:11; 26-28. So, the Blood of Christ inaugurates the new Septuagint term for Covenant  9:18-22. Although in Heb. 9:16-17, the Septuagint term for covenant is used juridically in the sense of the last will and testament. In 9:15. v. 20 has its usual meaning of covenant, in v. 15 of the one sealed by the Blood of Christ and in v. 20 of the other sealed by the blood of the Sinaitic sacrifice.

The NT uses the Septuagint term “sla0nkn” 33 times for “brit”. (which I cannot write on my computer but it looks like an s with the bottom loop closed then a small “l”  followed by an  “a” then  an  0 with a line through it , then an “n” with an accent over it ..then “k” and “n”. So….sla0nkn  (lol, I can see Leauki rolling his eyes now!)

I didn't bring up salvation.....I wrote salvation history. Lev. 4 is part of God's revelation of salvation history as every part of the Holy Bible is part of salvation history....which begins with Genesis and ends with the Book of the Apocalypse..

Now what part of salvation history was Lev. 4.....The sacrifices of Lev. 4 were a type of what/Who was to come.

Why are you going on this tangent? I know that the Old Covenant sacrifices, rites, ceremonies in and of themselves weren't salvific...in fact, that's what I've been saying all along.....everything in the OT points to the promised Redeemer....Christ including the Isrealites themselves, God chose them to produce the Redeemer..and they fulfilled their mission.

The Isrealites and later Jews all had to have faith in God and in the promised Savior.

In post #14, I indicated that I understood that with sacrifice that was pleasing to God faith was involved....

LULA POSTS #14

LULA POSTS:

There is Lev. 6:18 and Exodus 31:16-18....where it most clearly appears that God Himself is limiting the duration of the covenant. The covenant is perpetual "in their generations".

If you think otherwise, answer this passage directed at Isreal......"And I will bring upon you everlasting reproach and perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten" Jeremias 23:40; cf 25:9.

Lula, the word there for 'law' is Torah.  So how can the L-rd himself put something on their hearts if he did away/abolish it?

Lula, pay attention to the pronouns here. 

Lev 6:18- "All the males among the children of Aaron shall eat of it. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations concerning the offerings of the LORD made by fire: every one that toucheth them shall be holy. (KJV)"

This isn't a conditional 'as long as your generation exists' but rather that this statute forever will remain in your generations (ie your lineage). 

Ex 31:16-18- "16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. 18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. (KJV)"

The Israeli people still exist even today.  Even 'if' it was linked to their generations (which the Sabbath is not) they are still alive today therefore this covenant is still in existence. 

I fail to see your point with Jer 23:40. How does this contribute to our discussion of forever?

Again, the requirements are that animal sacrifices only be burnt inside the Temple. If Christ had offered Himself exactly that way, He would have been disobeying His Father's command and doing something the Lord God abhorred.

Your focus for the literal fulfillment as per the reqirements of Lev. 4 and Deut 12 is misplaced. Christ's work of redemption accomplished by His Passion, death, Resurrection and Ascension into Heaven is the Paschal mystery/Sacrifice. Christ is the Paschal Lamb of God and His saving death on the Cross commemmorated the deliverance of the Jewish people from death by the blood of the lamb sprinkled on the doorposts in Egypt, which the angel of death saw and "passed over". Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, and the Paschal lamb the symbol of Isreal's redemption at the first Passover. The Eucharist celebrates the new  Passover in which Jesus "passes over" to His Father by His death on the Cross which His Father finds most pleasing by His Resurrection. We thus anticipate the final Passover of the Chruch in the glory of the kingdom.

I think the answer lies in reading Jer. 31:31-35 in its proper context. "31 Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda: 32 Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt: the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord. 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least of them even to the greatest, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. 35 Thus saith the Lord, who giveth the sun for the light of the day, the order of the moon and of the stars, for the light of the night: who stirreth up the sea, and the waves thereof roar, the Lord of hosts is his name.

And just so we are on the same page, "Torah" means only the inspired words of God in the OT.

The first part, V. 31-32 describes the Old Mosaic Covenant broken by the people's sins....and the 2nd part v. 33-35 Jeremias speaks forcefully of the New Covenant which will endure forever...so the new  covenant is not going to be according to the flesh as the old law, but in the Spirit, which will endure forever as God has written it in His Blood calling together a people made up of Jew and Gentile making them one.

V.33 "the House of Isreal after those days" is the Catholic Church. The Chruch is the New Isreal.  

To understand salvation history you should read and study the prophets. In the Old Covenant God revealed His law through Moses and prepared His people for salvation through the prophets.

According to Jeremias, the New Law has 3 features....it's new, something interior, and it's heartfelt. It's new becasue prior to this the Old law with God was never desrcibed this way...it's new not in the terms of the previous covenant which has ceased to exist Heb. 8, but in the sense that it is definitive and will not be superceded. At the Last Supper when Jesus said the words of consecration over the chalice, "This cup is poured out for you is the new covenant" He brings Jeremias' words to fulfillment.

It's interior becasue it's etched in the people's heart. it is the law of God, the content didn't change, but people will know it in a different way..the previous covenant was written on stone tablets but this one will be written on the heart and soul of every man....so, the new law is part of every person's being and it's not just an external obligation; people's well formed conscience tell them what to do and if they fail to live up to the demands of the Covenant, they lose their identity until they are converted and repent from sin. In Heb. 10:18, St.Paul explains this passage that in the New Covenat Christ has obtained forgiveness of sins for us through the Cross and therefore the old sin offerings no longer have any effect. "Where there is forgiveness of sins, there is no longer any offering for sin."

It's heartfelt becasue it's based on a loving relationship between God and His people. Jeremias' v. 33 shows this best. So, moral imperatives should not come by way of legal imposition from outside...they will arise from a person's heart the aim being not so much perfect, guiltless behavior as living in union with God: "All who keep His commandments abide in Him, and He in them."

The New Covenant has given its name to the "New Testament" on which the new people of GOd is founded. The Chruch teaches in Lumen gentium 9 that "At all times and in every race God has given welcome to whosoever fears Him and does what is right. ....God was please to bring men together as one people, a people that acknowledges Him in truth and serves Him in holiness. He therefore chose the race of Isreal as a people unto Himself. With it He set up a covenant. Step by step He taught and prepared this people, making known in its history both Himself and the decree of His will and making it holy unto Himself.

All these things were done by way of preparation and as a figure of that new and perfect covenant which was to be ratified in Christ and that of fuller revelation which was to be given through the Word of God Himself made flesh.

The Christian Chruch is the new and definitive Covenant which will never pass away and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ at His Second Coming at the end of the world in judgment of it.

post #60

Lev 6:18- "All the males among the children of Aaron shall eat of it. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations concerning the offerings of the LORD made by fire: every one that toucheth them shall be holy. (KJV)"

The Douay Rheims version has it as:  "The males only of the race of AAron shall eat it. It shall be an ordinance everlasting in your generations concerning the sacrifices of the Lord: Everyone that touches them shall be sanctified."

The point is no matter whether the word is "your" or "theirs", the duration of the Old Mosaic is still limited by God's own words.  

As far as the Old Mosaic Covenant, read Jer. 31:32 again if you think it's still in effect. The idolatrous and unfaithful Isrealites didn't keep their end of the Sinai agreement and thus voided it themselves.    

Hmm, I sense a misdirection away from the issue here.  Lula, I'm not aruging against the point regarding the Pesachal lamb now am I?  You suggest that the 'Old Law' (ie Torah) is fulfilled and abolished.  I am asking how the sin sacrifices that were offered in the Temple were fulfilled so they could be 'done away' with as you said.  Mainly because this is a part of the Torah you suggest is fulfilled.  So far all you've done is elude to an agreement that it has not.

Lula, do the Israeli people still exist today?

I've not heard this as an accepted definition.  It is most commonly referred to the First 5 books of the Bible (the whole OT is considered the Tanakh, an acronym).  The simplistic definition I've heard is "teaching and instruction" (ie this is how you should live) but still refers to the first 5 books of the Bible.  Although I agree that the Torah are the inspired words of G-D, the prophets are not considered Torah but rather Nevtim.

but it still says I will write the "Torah" on their hearts (verse 33).  Therefore Torah still exists.

Lula, what is the hebrew word used for 'Law' in Jer 31:33?

I am not sure if any answered one answered your question.  First, the Red Heifer was the ONLY sacrifice that was to be made outside the walls of Jerusalem.  This is also the sacrifice that makes the Priest doing the sacrifice unclean. (Numbers 19).

Not all offerings had to be burnt.  They are several different offering some of which the Priest were allowed to eat.

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Lula,

Does the The United States Catholic Catechism for Adults published in 2006 state that "The covenant that God made with the Jewish people through Moses remains eternally valid for them" or does it not?

Yes, it did,  but last August, 2008, the conference of bishops recognized it was a mistake to have it there and this heretical sentence is in the process of being removed.

I don't know, but will try to find out.....isn't this a question better addressed to Leauki?

I thought the Catholic Church believed in SuperSession aka Replacement Theology, so what you're saying is that they no longer do?  Is this cocorrect?

Sorry about the typos.  Its hard to read with the posts being all discombobulated!  Well back to the game.  Leauki, is it possible to fix it?

I want to read all that has been said.  Does this come in book format? :->

 I haven't found the Hebrew word yet, but here is the Latin translation for Jer. 31:33...

33 Sed hoc erit pactum, quod feriam cum domo Israel post dies illos, dicit Dominus: Dabo legem meam in viceribus eorum et in corde eorum scribam eam; et ipsi erunt mihi in populum. 

Yes, this is my understanding as well. I just wanted to be sure we are in agreement as to what consists of the Torah.