Cheese eating, surrendering monkeys

of course

from JoeUser Forums

Cheese eating...

 

There are thing that I don't understand. Well I just might be stupid. It's always a possibility.But I would like people to explain me why french bashing is such a popular part of American culture. Or may be it is just JU culture, but for what I can't see from newspaper and the violence of some reaction when france refused to send troop among the coalition in Irak.

Just let me list all the stereotypes I came accross :

- coward

- stupid

- stinky

- arrogant

- eating cheese 

- drinking wine

- shallow

- hypocritical

- Anti-Semitic

-...

I don't really want to waste my time trying to make people change their mind. I'm sure all of them have spend at least several year in France, are fluent in Francais and that their expertise of my country is strong enough to build their certainties. They might even justifying their attitude by picking what they don't like in France foreign policy. Writing article with half truth, with a pejorative spinning is easy. 

It is also racist. 

I'm not saying that you are racist because you criticize French government action, policy or whatsoever. I wouldn't say that either if you attack individual French people or tradition. 

Don't get me wrong. For me, you are entitled to any opinion, you can say I'm crap, after all I'm French, and for the French bashers that's almost all they need to patronise me. But I know I can be crap for other reasons unrelated to the fact that I'm french.

You are racist when you start to discriminate person for their belonging of a different group. When you establish generalisation from independent factoids to build negative cliché. or when you making the amalgam of French people and France actions . If you could talk to French people, you will find out that French are very critical about their government, exactly like in USA, and all the democracies of the world. 

But if you are a French basher, you probably won't see any interest in actually confronting your belief with the reality. Racist jokes are actually funnier and not too demanding for the brain

As a matter of fact, there is something similar in Europe, but it is aimed against America. It is spread in all western European countries, and dressed in a lot of cliché. Personally, I don't do anti-Americanism. By conviction and because I'm fighting against easy generalisation. Even if I'm not supporting US administration policy, I still make the difference with american people

Let me also tell you a short personal story. During my first year of England, I was living in university accommodation, where they add this policy of gathering foreigners altogether. I was effectively sharing my house with 3 English lads, one Irish man, a Jamaican, a Trinidad lady, a Belgian girl and 3 American girls. I'm a friendly person and I got along well with everybody more or less, but my best friend was Mary-Beth, a young woman with curly blond hair and a delicious Texas accent. She was very conservative, she had vote Bush and was trusting his administration, we weren't agree on anything political, but we shared a lot of good time and I really liked her. Much more than any European people in my house. 

Of course, I wouldn't believe all Texans are nice

 

 

 

10,784 views 23 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Il y a plusieurs raisons qui expliquent pourquoi les Américains semblent haïr les Français autant ces jours ci. Mais, les Américains étaient (et le seront probablement encore éventuellement) de grands francophiles jusqu’à la deuxième guerre mondiale. À mon avis, la guerre froide aurait réellement fucké les Américains. Le refus de la France de couper tous ses liens avec l’Union et les gouvernements “socialistes” élus par les Français (il faut réaliser que le terme “socialiste” n’a pas du tout la même connotation ni le même sens aux États-Unis; en fait, un socialiste est un libéral là bas et un socialiste pour eux est un extrémiste de gauche anti-démocratique à la stalinienne) ont créés une image plutôt négative chez les élites médiatiques. La guerre en Iraq n’était rien de plus q’une autre opportunité de réanimer la francophobie chez les Américains

Mais bon, les Américains ont toujours eu besoin de détester quelqu’un. Que ce soit les Britanniques, les Canadiens, les Allemands ou les Français, il s’agit habituellement d’un sentiment éphémère. C’est un peuple à la mémoire courte.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top

I don't have a problem with the French as a people.  But their culture seems to be a combination of hypocricy and cynical pragmatism.

 

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Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
Ever see the movie "A Christmas story"? In it, there's a bully. The bully isn't France. The bully changes over time. But the bully had a little friend who yapped as if he were himself big and strong. The bully's weenie side-kick is France.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Cute little translation, gotta love google translate eh.

It’s not my opinion that the average American doesn’t understand the terms “socialist” and “liberal” à la française, it’s a fact. A liberal in France (and in most of Europe) retained most (or at least, some) of its traditional principles, that is : the minimal, non-interventionist state with the main focus on individual rights and free markets. In France, “ultra-libéral” is a pejorative term meaning the COMPLETE opposite of what a liberal is in the United States.

The main factors that could explain the perversion of the liberal in the States would be the distrust of the open markets after the Great Depression and well, obviously, the Cold War. With the rise the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the label of socialist (but not its ideology) was quite evidently unusable in American politics. So they simply mixed the ideological terms here and there.

The confusion and differences between the terms might seem puerile to you, but it did help greatly in forging the image of a quasi-communist, anti-American France for the past fifty years.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
So, we could stereotype Americans, but not the French?
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top

created a rather negative image at the media elites


them damn media elites cant do ANYTHING right i guess.  they perceive france negatively at the same time they push french aristocrat kerry for prez.  le grande flip-flop n'est pas?

the current season of french bashing reminds me of a divorced couple with one child who plays both parents against each other.  britain and france are equally culpable for creating the mess that is the middle east. this time out, the british catered to us.  next time around, the spin machine may be spewing forth denunciations of english dentistry, public school pedastry, unreliable automobile electrical systems and the brits' fawning devotion to a less than attractive royal family.

britain does have one advantage in that it seems less 'foreign' to most americans than does france.


the Americans always needed to hate somebody. That they are the British, the Canadians, the Germans or the French, it usually acts of a transitory feeling. It is people with the short memory


voila!  'hate' is an overstatement. but america has historically enjoyed having a bad guy to bash. 

Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'd add something to this, but I'm only a stupid American pig, so what do I know?
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
Ah, I'll add something to this anyways...

I have no problem getting along with French people. No problem. I don't hate the populace, nor do I hate the country, I just hate the way it handles itself.

France acts as though everything America does is in short-sighted self-interest, where in fact France is the master of doing that. France acts as a snob, getting in the way of nearly anything we try to do to benefit ourselves or others.

The Oil-For-Food Scandal has made me lose any confidence in the Chirac administration, regime, whatever, (did I have any confidence in the first place?).

What is worse, however, is that France talks to America like we are good friends, then turns around and denounces us with the rest of Europe.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
It’s not my opinion that the average American doesn’t understand the terms “socialist” and “liberal” à la française, it’s a fact. A liberal in France (and in most of Europe) retained most (or at least, some) of its traditional principles, that is : the minimal, non-interventionist state with the main focus on individual rights and free markets. In France, “ultra-libéral” is a pejorative term meaning the COMPLETE opposite of what a liberal is in the United States.


Does France really have a laissez-faire form of market? I'm no expert on France, but I always thought that their businesses were regulated more so than the ones in the States.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top

Little whip,

Darling, I couldn't have a better help that your comment if I wanted to illustrate my post. There are quiet a lot of simplistic, if not untrue statements there. I don't want to go through your list of French loss, my knowledge of history is not that good, it just seems to me that you are forgetting the French troop who are fighting in Afghanistan with American forces. Let's just hope they won't fail this time. I won't defend the French foreign policy, but do yourself a favour, don't believe that there is any moral principle in foreign policy, countries are just trying to protect and develop their own interests. USA, UE, and France alike.

However, it seems to me that your conception of French is based on hate. Using some historical facts to support your anti French attitude is exactly what was the point in my article. I believe you had some anti French feeling even before knowing anything about French. One I thing I really enjoyed is your use of WE, so all American share your feeling, and how can we even sell Evian there? Not all American are anti French, not all French are anti American. 

So honey, I wouldn't never say you are stupid, but you allow yourself to establish generalisation from cliché, and that's at least inaccurate. This is your right to criticize French things, but the way you are using French is clearly pejorative when you qualify something else. Thus It is clearly racist.

Just a last one, I know that west Germany and French are very close country in a lot of respect, but they are clearly different. However, one thing you could have visited in both countries are museum about the Holocaust, among other thing you would have seen anti Jew propaganda, apparently they were smelling, backstabbing, greedy ....

To all others, thanks for your comments I will try to answer later, but I must go working now.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Oh Jepel!!!

I feel like the only one who totally got your article, and that's mostly because I'm of French nationality and even I get shit for being French! Well, not much, thank God, because I'm more Native American than French and that gets most of the attention.

I know this one guy (who is pretty closed in all of his opinions, I must add) who is a very big France-basher. Not just the government, but every single human being who has ever lived in France, gone to France, or probably thought of going to France. For a long time I wanted to go to France (remember) and rubbed it in his face a lot because he liked me as a friend, and he couldn't discriminate against me so he had to keep his dumb thoughts in his head.

"Of course, I wouldn't believe all Texans are nice" Just as all Americans are not nice, and all French aren't nice. That's human nature, isn't it ?

Besides, I'm sure there are Americans who are cowards, stupid, stinky, arrogant, that like cheese and wine, who are shallow, hypocritical anti-Semites. As there are some of them kinds in every nation and race. I'm more surprised to find the good ones.

~TW
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
Besides, I'm sure there are Americans who are cowards, stupid, stinky, arrogant, that like cheese and wine, who are shallow, hypocritical anti-Semites. As there are some of them kinds in every nation and race. I'm more surprised to find the good ones.


When you say you're surprised to find the good ones, do you mean Americans?

By the way, does anybody know if France really does have a laissez-faire type of market with little regulation of business by the government? I'm curious about that now.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
So honey, I wouldn't never say you are stupid, but you allow yourself to establish generalisation from cliché,


Did Jepel just call you stupid through a double-negative?
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top

Ok I will try to be concise:

Draginol : French are ok as human but their culture, in any aspect and all circumstances is crap? Don't you think it is a little bit reductive?

JE. Media plays an important part in spreading this type of feeling, I agree, as well for the fact that there seems to be always a need to use another culture as an easy target.  I don't know how much the difference of political ideology is that important, in particular socialism. De gaulle was always willing to demonstrate France's independence from anything and in particular USA. He wasn't a great socialist, was it? Chirac is always referring himself to Gaullism. 

Draginol (bis) : I haven't see this movie, but I guess I can understand the gist. What do you want me to say? you are more than free to have this vision of France, IMO Just don't expect too much it to be realistic.

Messy Buu : I don't think it is really about who can do stereotype about who, but more about the lack of meaning of stereotypes. Stereotype are usually construct from cliché

King bee :  I agree with you on the periodicity of such anti - something feeling. IMO, being anti is also a way of being pro -America. May be it is  a kind of identification mechanism... this time against French...

The fazz : I don't know if you are anything fat or stupid. 

The fazz (bis) That's fair enough, I wouldn't say that I have a great opinion of Chirac for anything related of internal politics as he is notoriously corrupted and had showed great skill for demagogy. This is not the place of talking about French non participation on Iraq war as it is a fairly big issue that shouldn't not be address here. However, France was and is still part of the military actions in Afghanistan. France position against war in Iraq was more than spread all over the world. 

Messy Buu (bis) : I think JE was defining the different meaning of the word liberal. The French conception of liberalism is about unregulated free market and minimalist state. It is not a popular ideology so far.

Little whip :  Honey bunny, I might have miss your facetious comment, it was long and sarcastic, and I might have taken it the wrong way however, there are 2 other thing you might want to explain me deep

by the way, how DOES it feel to be viciously attacked due to your nationality alone? To be called names? To be labeled with stereotypes? To be seen as a mindless sycophant of your often erroneous leaders? To be lumped in with the percieved majority that behave in the ways made famous by the press?

If I'm following you, the group you feel your belonging to, has been stereotyped and discredited by mainstream culture. Sorry lady, but why is this a reason to repeat that against another group ?


btw, i did tour Dachau...

It's ancient history for Germany....but anti-Semitism is so bad in France right now, Ariel Sharon has advised French Jews to leave. From an article i wrote back in July... Link

AP-Europe

JERUSALEM - Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) on Sunday urged French Jews to flee the country to escape a rising tide of anti-Semitism, while acknowledging that the French government is fighting racial violence.

The latest French Interior Ministry figures show 510 anti-Jewish acts or threats in the first six months of 2004 — compared to 593 for all of last year.

"If I have to advocate to our brothers in France, I will tell them one thing," Sharon told visiting American Jewish leaders in Jerusalem. "Move to Israel, as early as possible."

Anti-Semitic acts against Jewish schools, synagogues and cemeteries have risen in France in recent years, coinciding with growing tensions in the Middle East. Many attacks have been blamed on young Muslims.

"We see the spread of the wildest anti-Semitism there," Sharon said.

First anti-semitism is not totally dead  in Germany, neo-nazi are  back more and more in shape as it has been observed in last election, specially in the ex communist Germany.

Second, this is the reverse argument as preciously. Because France is an increasingly anti-Semite so it can be discriminated in return. I'm not sure about the strength of this particular argumentation...

Anti-Semitism is illegal in France, as all the discrimination. It doesn't mean that there is no anti-Semites in France, but it is not really something accepted. . Check your sources, France has the largest Jew and the largest Muslim community in Europe, it is probably not because we do pogrom between cheese and wine.

Anyway sweetie I hug you back if you don't mind my smell, I'll try to remove the garlic necklace and not be more condescending to you that you are to me. 

Tangled Wish : Unfortunately, I guess you might be right, you are the only one to get me. I'm not sure it is connected to your frog origin but more of your personal sensitivity. Cheers.

Thank you all.

Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hoops !! the fazz is right. Sorry I really meant "I would never say you're stupid". My writien english is kind of rusty...
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
It's alright, I was just messing with ya
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
Thanks anyway I'm trying to improve my skill and any correctin is welcomed...
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
Oooh, I love correcting people. Be careful how you type, The Fazz is on the lookout!
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
He wasn't a great socialist, was it?


I was mainly refering to the Mitterand years
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
Just wanted to add my little opinion here. it's true i have french blood, and i have lived in France and well French people i've known heaps. And well, i dont think we should generalize. Some are cool, some are a pain, some are geeks, some are weirdos, some are old, some are young... yeh well the list goes on.

Dont judge a French by his nationality, give everyone a chance, no matter where they're from. And if the dude turns out to be a dickhead, only then are allowed to say "No wonder, he's french..."

Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
only then are allowed to say "No wonder, he's french..."




Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
Recently the Australian Prime Minister made a fairly undiplomatic comment that the only reason the French were opposing some move or other (I can't remember what it was) was because there was a lot of "anti-Americanism" in France. Although I actually agree there is a lot of this in France, I thought the French foreign minister's response was not only an exceptional example of diplomacy, but a very potent comment.

He commented that he found the Australian PM's comments surprising. He said that although the French and American Governments had disagreed on the invasion of Iraq, this was no more than a difference of opinion on a specific issue and that he considered anti-Americanism to be about as pointless as French-bashing. He said he saw no reasons why any such previous disagreement should have any effect on future relations between the two countries.

I used to indulge in a lot of anti-Americanism, but in recent years have often spoken out against it when I've found mysef in anti-American conversations, because, although I have problems with certain things about the USA as a nation, I am fully aware that there are many beautiful and wonderful people who are Americans.

Equally I speak out against French bashing, I fin it quite offensive. But then, I've never had a single problem with a single Frenchperson or their culture.