[IDEA] Stun Ability Solution

I actually think this is a great idea.

Very do-able and gives a real benefit with an up and downside.  Gamble on something that might really help or go for a sure thing.

Eh, I'm not a fan of luck in what purports to be a competitive game.  There are better solutions to the stun lock problem than making stuns affected by chance.

Even with 50% or 25% or 10% there still a chance somebody could be repeatedly stunned for 5-6 seconds if the current stun durations are not changed.

In any case, I want killing an opponent or surviving an opponent's attack to be about skill, not about whether or not their ability happened to stun me.

I made a post about luck somewhere around these forums quite a while ago.  The jist of the argument was that some luck in a game is OK, but you need to make sure that game doesn't go too far into the realm of luck.  I cited examples like how the competetive community banned OHKO attacks in Pokemon (imo, the best example in this instance).  I also used the phrase, "50% chance of a win button" several times as something that needs to be avoided.

This suggestion is quite literally a 50% chance of a win button.  (Well, maybe a 25% chance when using double stuns.)  This throws the game too far into the realm of luck as it literally comes down to a 50/25% chance of killing the enemy Demigod.  There is very little skill involved.  Just luck.

The only luck I'm okay with having in the game is damage ranges (like weapon damage which does damage between a min and a max) because that doesn't have a significant impact on gameplay.

I can't agree with that. I think it should be possible to a team to disable a hero until his death. In my opinion you shouldn't be able to survive a gank against three people, if youre alone and about 4 DG's if you're only 2. It should be possible to prolong your death, until your mates arrive to rescue you.

Let me explain why, there are 2 big reasons:

- First of all it supports teamplay. It's important to have map awareness, help your mates and on the attackers side, it benefits ganking, which make games faster.

- If you only had a chance of stunning or stun immunity items like the TP or HP-potions will be to strong. They're already quite powerful _but_ you have to get the right timing to use them. Be aware, which spells has been used by the enemys, trick them with clever pathing and it makes juking more important.

Maybe i'm to biased as a Dota-Player, where stuns are the key. But on the other hand, i never had a problem with it. Even if i get stunned for like 5sec. it shouldn't matter that lot, because my team should be there and help me to. So it comes down to - how to use the stuns most effectivly in a team fight. Which is a good think, imo.

I'm sorry, I have to say this is a terrible idea.  For a game like this which requires strategy and teamwork, throwing in random variables that affect the outcome of a gank so greatly is very, very bad.  Even if the stunlocking is a big problem (which it apparently is right now), making it based off a random chance is an incredible cop-out of proper game design.  There's many other valid solutions - diminishing returns, temporary immunity, removing cooldown reduction items, etc, but making it a random chance is not one of them.

I think if you are against a greater number of enemy Demigods than is currently with you - stun or not - you are in trouble. Inclusion or exclusion of stun attacks/mechanics doesn`t change that fundamental.

Teamplay is still supported... we`re just speaking of a difference in cooperative abilities being utilized.

Stunning would still be 100% effective versus Minions and Creeps of all types.

As for luck`s role in any competitive game, I have another post on these forums in which I also suggested randomized picks from an Item list per game. Without this Demigod is simply going to become formulaic.

I respect contentions otherwise, but I must strongly disagree - the point is dealing with changing or unpredictable battlefield events & context *is* part of competitive play. What I propose is hardly a sabotage of a fair set of competitive rules.

People in the real world in sports competition deal with unpredictable factors all the time. Wind & weather, lighting conditions, ice consistencies, crowd support (morale, interference with clear thought), referee judgements, arena dimensions, illnesses, mental distractions from the game, off days, dirt in the eyes, etc. . Randomization is all around and throughout competitive sports. Its still about skill.

Perhaps the only tempering alteration to be looked at if a 50% chance of success is utilized, is a fair & subtle reduction in energy cost for stun abilities. Maybe make them all 15% cheaper.

I have no doubt the core integrity and appeal of Demigod will be retained.

Why so complicated? Increase manacosts and/or cooldowns, decrease stun duration. Game, Set and Match.

Keep it simple!

Items are another part, not directly involved in this discussion, else it would get to big. There are some Items where my "gamer sense" are tingling. I know people don't like this phrase here but, i've quite some expierience as a dota-player, and with that expirience i've a little understanding what items can do, since the dota developpers also tried alot stuff and had to remove some of it afterwards.

Imo, Cooldown reducing items aren't good for the game. It just makes the balancing more complicated, because you always have to think "But what if Player A buys the Item B, which would make the Item overpowered". Just cut it, its no big deal. Add something else, which is interesting. There are alot of possible items As an substitution we could add something like a Cooldown-refreshing Item. It would have a big cooldown and cost a good amount of mana, but with one little click you can reset all your cooldowns. It's used in Dota, but on the other hand, no DG has an ability witha CD of 1.5-3min so its not that much of a use in Demigod :/

@WarlokLord

Randomness in competitive play will not work. Maybe you can live with it, but most people wont, because if you play on a competitve level it should come down to skill not randomness. At best, we take look at your example: Randomized Items in the Shop.

Does it mean, my TB is just screwed because important mana-reg helm's are not available? My team loses because i can't buy a friggin helmet which would be nessecary for a strong build? I don't want to have weaker DG because of randomness. Compare it to soccer. If its rains, it rains for everybody, everyone has to suffer the same negative and positive effects. BUT, since in DG matches the lineups won't be the same randomized items can have a diffrent impact on the teams.

And just to lose a worldchampionschip - in the worst case - because of such a thing is a nogo.

Back to topic: So far i had no problems with "stunlocks". But again, im used to Dota aaaaand i can't see any big diffrence Just learn and try to dodge them - i know its not easy. But nova + boulder(if not used closeup ofcourse) are avoidable. Learn to juke And also Sedna only got her melee stun.. and TB + Reg can pretty much outrun her.

I am not a fan of randomness in something like this.

An addition after some thought.

-50% chance of success
-15% less energy cost for all stun abilities
-50% greater recharge time for all stun abilities

Puts stun in its proper role. With the above you might not need any further riders on stun usage. I think its pretty damn clever (!).

(grin egotistically...)

Frogboy, you`d think I was pondering something more substantially randomized than what I am. I`m not. This is small potatoes. And certainly preferable to: 1. the removal of Stun mechanics altogether, 2. the introduction of gimmicky Rebound items, 3. a comprehensive retooling of Demigod.

An obscure little game you may have heard of called Left4Dead incorporates far greater random elements into its play. Its still competitive. And FUN. I hear this unsung little game has had a small measure of success... 

How can you play Left4Dead competitive? Get there faster? Aaaand its not that random. Unless you play with a Zombielord.. which often are douchebags and spawn you into oblivion after a few seconds. Thats not randomness, that implements only human stupidity

Well, if you want to remove stuns, please picture me Demigod without stuns? Wouldn't that lead to a removal of TP scrolls? How do you want to kill a DG with a Tp-scroll and no stun? It all comes down to a push and lane-fest. The most boring thing in an AoSque game. Thank God Dota's metagame is switching to a more active ganking playstyle right now.

I wouldn't like this game with only laning and pushing. And without stuns, there are no ganks. And you're not is such a big danger in a 100v1 when no one can stop you from running away. Maybe some people start complaining about slows then..

Randomness is the opponent of competitive. And competitive gaming doesn't mean 100% fun all the times. Since training and learining stuff isn't fun all the time. Right now, there are 6(?) Stuns in the game. 2 can be avoided, 1 can be canceled. The only AoE-Stuns are the avoidable two.

Sry, but this post seems more like a cry than critique.

No it is not. (randomness opposite of competitive) More on this later.

As for L4D being competitive, yes - you play versus other players in... drum roll... versus play. Sounds competitive to me.

As for randomness in L4D, ummm, how about the seeding of weaponry, ammo, health, molotovs, pipe bombs, zombies, and bosses, not to mention timings of hordes? Of course thats randomized, all within algorithmic parameters. Like Max Payne but here *successfully* (!) applied to... drum roll... competitive and cooperative play.

Seems to be a good argument for the validity of randomization in certain circumstances.

.

Removing stuns completely would be unwise, I agree, since stuns are sometimes a counter to unbearably lethal foes (i.e. Unclean Beast amped to the gills with life drain, hit regen, and attack speed).

Aspartem - That's actually how Staff of Renewal started.  It meant Rook could instantly chain boulder + slam + boulder + slam, so they changed it to the current version.  Which is still too much. 

Also, a 2 v 1 battle will almost always toast the one, if the 2 are any good.  Teleport scrolls can be interrupted, and many of the Dgs have interrupts.  Stuns are a different order of business, because currently they allow a good team to kill you if they can see you - warpstone plus massive AoE stun or long channel stun - juking doesn't come into play, at all.  You haven't played against this much because not many people use it right now.  The ones who do haven't even really refined it - because they don't have to.  They could bring in some observation wards and your survivability goes down even further.

I'm not going to touch the "luck in competition" argument except to say that this is the equivalent of going for a spike in volleyball and having a 50% chance that the ball will turn invisible before I hit it.  Or playing Poker but having a 50% chance that I can't see the cards in my hand.  Random factors in the field are fine, but a few things - especially my abilities, need to remain constant to make the game worthwhile. 

Now if you want to make the current levels of Stun proc 1% of the time as a critical after nerfing normal stun duration 70% that would be worth considering.  But I'd really like to hear what the devs have on the table for this issue... 

Peace, Kestrel

There could be item that do a stun time reduction.

like stun effect last 20% less

Yes, but then by necessity everyone must carry it. Again, may as well start with it or have it an inherent trait.

We should try to avoid compulsory solutions and maintain more freedom in your manner of play.

I will attempt to illustrate my truth here by agreement.

You are correct – randomization and chance have no place in a competitive play game like Demigod.

Except for Lord Erebus` CHANCE to summon NightWalkers, which is actually enhanced directly by an entire section of his skill tree.

And Cloak Of Elfinkind with its 15% CHANCE to Dodge.

And Unmaker with its 20% CHANCE to increase Attack Speed.

And Duelist`s Cuirass with its 5% CHANCE of 1.5x Damage.

And Groffling Warplate with its 1% CHANCE for a Shield.

And Platemail Of The Crusader with its 1% CHANCE to Heal.

And Theurgist`s Cap with its 5% CHANCE to impede Health and Energy regeneration on targets.

And Vinling Helmet with its 3% CHANCE to reap some measure of Energy on a hit.

And Assassin`s Footguards with its 10% CHANCE to Dodge.

And Journeyman Treads with its 5% CHANCE to increase Movement Speeds.

And Wyrmskin Handguards with its 20% CHANCE to reduce Movement & Attack Speeds.

And Gauntlets Of Despair with its 15% CHANCE to drain energy.

And Slayers Wraps with its 10% CHANCE for 2x Damage.

And Gloves Of Fell-Darkur with its 20% CHANCE of delivering a firey blast.

And Doomspite Grips with its 20% CHANCE of cleaving.

Etcetera.

Hmmm... looks like random chance *already* plays a huge role in this tight competitive play game.

I estimate that about 40% + Items feature some randomized trait. I think I have an inexorable point of logic here, don`t I...?

Not 100% true.

Not every one have a stun.

If your up against a rook and a UB youll definatly want it

But not if your against seda + oak

But Wagnard, listen to what you`re saying - every time I play against 'X' Demigod, I must use 'Y' Item. I don`t want the same thing everytime I play. Variety. Again, this sounds more like I`m solving an equation than playing a game.

Regardless, I stand by my solution. Randomness is *already* a key part of Demigod.

Right.  As passive item buffs.  You bring that into bread and butter active abilities and you have alot of frustrated gamers.  The whole reason we have active abilities in games like this is so you can seperate people who use them effectively and people who don't.  What happens when you trigger the ability at the perfect moment and Oops!  Bad luck!  - You stop playing that game, that's what.

It's good that you are thinking about this, because we need something different than we have, but introducing chance into skill-based elements is pretty far from what this mechanic needs, imo..

I think you`re splitting hairs. I understand the split, I just don`t think there is any consequential significance - randomized is randomized. We react to luck with Items, why not with a single realm of otherwise game-crippling ability?

The "passive item buffs" may indeed be categorized thusly, but they are hardly a minor aspect of Demigod. They are a major aspect, and for some (Regulus and the Ashkandar Sword...) they are critical. Actually, for anybody they are critical: scoring 4x damage on a hit is a game-changer, as is having a 40% Evasion/Dodge capacity.

Demigod will still be Demigod with randomized stuns. Everything else will still function, and as normal.

Even randomized stuff in Items isn't that great. But there is no other way to show a critical hit or dodge etc. How often do you hear sentences like "If my XY had procced you would be dead, pff noob luck".

And as u said, there are already randomized items and passives.. why add _more_ randomized numbers into the actives. So everything is randomized? Also i guess, you don't understand what's meant with competitive normaly. Competitive doesn't mean player vs player - modes, it's more about professional or paid gaming. Playing in leagues and tournaments.

And L4D is hardly that randomized. There are alot of triggers, which got some random variables in it. But after 2-3 times on the same map, you've seen it. Or at least i've. It's still fun.. but nothing "oh shit". The only random bosses which can be nasty are tanks.. but even these will die 90% without killing someone.

I disagree, Aspartem. Sport is filled with randomness and chaos, real life or digital. Why add *more* randomization? Again its not much more, and of course it would solve the stun-chaining problem which threatens to make Demigod unfun in many multiplayer circumstances.

I fail to see how my proposed change makes Demigod any less validly competitive. Less predictable, sure. If by "competitive" you mean clinically even, then I`m not interested in such a game experience. I`d rather have fun. I`m not an equation-solving chess man.

My only other comment now would be to say you are okay with randomization of critical hits, of strike evasion, and of a considerable myriad of other similarly paramount mechanisms, but the Stun mechanism must remain 100% reliable... . That makes no sense to me. If randomization of one is fine, why then not of the other? Not logical to this mind.

L4D is terrifically randomized - certainly by your own bar of measure! L4D has more randomization in it than Demigod and a host of other games out there.

(Does it need more elements & assets to maintain interest? Absolutely...)

Then I propose a new item idea.  It would cost as much as an artifact so I suppose it would go in the artifact shop.  It is a (re)useable item that has one ability.  It has a 50% chance to instantly kill the target.  It either kills the target instantly, or it doesn't kill the target and nothing happens.  It can come in a massive AoE attack, or maybe as an instant hit ranged weapon.

If you think this is a fair item, then be quiet about game balance.  If you don't think its a fair item, explain how it is different from abilities that are easier to get than artifacts and have a 50% chance to stun = death.  Explain please, for I am curious.

EDIT:  Also, L4D is not competetive on the same level as Demigod.  Sure, by technical definition it is "competetive" against other players, but it will never even reach the level of other FPS's like Halo or CoD.  Stop using L4D as an example as it doesn't fit.

No.  Team work is one thing, but completely removing players from combat for extended periods of time is unacceptable.  Not only is it silly and bad for competition, but it's terribly un-fun.  There are much better and more interesting ways to promote teamwork without having stun-locking in the game.