Short-term fixes

from Demigod Forums

Lets get some constructive focus  :fuzzy: . Planned release date is 23 days ahead, and lights are probably on for long hours at Stardock. I still think it should be postponed about a month, but assuming it will not be, we should concentrate on fixes that require only changing numbers, not elaborate coding or graphics.

Problem definition : Sedna, Oak and Erebus will very rarely be used. I know a few disagree, but most agree, the reasons are obvious and I have heard no specific practical arguments from those who disagree.

Some diagnosis : The vital distinction between melee and ranged demigods was not sufficiently handled. For example in Warcraft III, all melee Heros had more health and dps than ranged ones, and had means of closing the gap / leaving combat. Mountain King had Stormbolt, Paladin had Invulnerability, Dreadlord had Sleep, BladeMaster had Windwalk and so on without exception. A ranged hero is in trouble when in contact with a melee one and needs to bail out fast. Whereas in Demigod, the 3 ranged demigods ( assassins TB, Regulus and general QoT ) can stand and duke it out against the 3 weak generals ( ). This is a basic balance violation in all games, RTS or others. Plus it comes on top of the abundance of towers, which provide ranged demigods with close-by havens, and the lack of surround option.

QoT is ranged, has 2 ranged attacks and a good defense and is the only playable general right now. Sedna, Oak and Erebus are melee, have no serious ranged attack and relatively weak defenses ( compare for example : Paladin's Invulnerability is 15-30-45 sec, Heal is bigger than most attacks ). Empowering your team is not in itself attarctive as a main goal for the average gamer, and even that is too weak as it stands.

The small-footprint of all creatures in Demigod also makes the melee very dense and hot at later stages, and only Rook can stand there for long. As I said earlier, I predict even UB will need some HP buff.

So, about those unfortunate demigods. All of them should receive increased HP and DPS, buffed special minions HP and DPS, and improved Morale. I'll do Erebus ( the weakest ) abilities here :

 

Bite should easily be the most powerful attack in the game, being both melee-ranged and single-target ( same for Pounce ). Suggested stat changes :

Damage : 200-350-500-650   ->   500-850-1250-1800

Duration : 2-3-4-5                 ->   3-5-7-10

Armor : 200-400-600-800       ->    300-700-1200- 0 armor.

Mist is basically creative Invulberability. The life leach is insignificant unless area increased. Keep no flag capturing and no abilities but allow movement and healing.

Bat Swarm is a very short escape ability ( "Blink" ). Damage is not much use as escape is usually backwards. Lower mana cost to 500 across levels. Double or tripple range.

Buff Night Walkers ( and all general minions ) health and DPS.

Morale should be attractive compared to abilities. Minion Health +120, damage + 12.

This will make Erebus hit-and-run style demigod. Less versatile than others, but playable.

 

Oak and Sedna should be fixed along similar lines. Sedna with emphasis on healing and melee survivability style, Oak - on combat enhancement.

The long run is a different story. Ideally, all demigods should have more than one viable build ; The persistent dimension should be built on more than favor items ; More than 2-3 items in each category should be viable ; abilities, builds and items should have tactic-and-counter dynamic, introducing scouting abilities and ability-swap options. These would make it a great game. For now, let's just save the demigods :)

3,244 views 20 replies
Reply #1 from Demigod Forums Top

Problem definition : Sedna, Oak and Erebus will very rarely be used. I know a few disagree, but most agree, the reasons are obvious and I have heard no specific practical arguments from those who disagree.

In a 2v2 or 1v1 game, sure. Otherwise, no. I see all three of those a lot, and I use Sedna very often. In fact, I see QoT waaay less often than any of those three. So unless, you're anticipating some change, that just isn't true. I can't give you any practical arguments because I have no idea why you would think so.

 

Sedna, Oak, and Erebus are melee, have no serious ranged attack and relatively weak defenses ( compare for example : Paladin's Invulnerability is 15-30-45 sec, Heal is bigger than most attacks ). Empowering your team is not in itself attractive as a main goal for the average gamer, and even that is too weak as it stands.

Of course! They're not assassins! They're supposed to be geared toward the back line. If you want to improve them, improve that role. I certainly agree with the bit about empowering one's team, but that's because the average gamer is a ridiculously stupid.

Bite should easily be the most powerful attack in the game, being both melee-ranged and single-target ( same for Pounce ).

Ahahaha >.> Yeah, lets give give him an ability that pwns the hell out of any Demigod and heals himself to full. Again, hes not an Assassin. As for Pounce, it IS powerful. Damage aside, the interrupt effect alone makes it formidable. At max, it does 1100 damage, which is a very good chunk, and can be upgraded with a slow effect. The most powerful melee-ranged, single-target attack in the game is Hammer Slam, and its tempered by a slow character and a casting time. It even used to target Demigods instead of the ground, and the splash damage is really only for creeps.

Sedna has great melee survivability, and her heals are already good, they're just not going to make the enemy team completely impotent. With Healing Wind, Natural Grace, and Life's Child plus equipment, her regen can be really bloody insane. But again, it doesnt make her invincible, which is good.

Now, after raggin on ya so much, I have to say, I definitely agree that the Demigods should have more than one viable build. All we have right now are cookie-cutters of the same stuff over and over with one or two exceptions. I just think your presented ideas about going about it are wrong.

Reply #2 from Demigod Forums Top

     I really love Sedna and the Oak, but i have to admit they are a bit weak. Yesterday, during a pantheon match with 3 Oaks vs 3 TB, it was a real pain (i won, but only because they were 3 dubs ai, otherwise it was very difficult to come at close range to those big bertas).

     It made me wonder, general are weaker than assassin, i can conceive that, but: were is the counterpart?? they have some minions, sure, but they are fairly weak and you moreover you should be able to do a non minion build without being totally impotent.

     While playing, i really feel that generals need a greater advantage to counterbalance their relative weakness. That plus connectivity issues, items and character balance needed make me feel that indeed the game could need one more month. I really hope that the devs will give Demigod the chance to be the hit it merits to be.

 

@Mercury: your changes seems too strong to me: bite heals the caster, so it shouldn't do so much damages; Bat swarm range is fine now, it should increase a bit along the levels, but X2 or X3 range would just allow him to enter and leave battle as he wish, which is really too much!

Start11 - Customize the Start Menu and Taskbar in Windows 10/11.
Reply #3 from Demigod Forums Top

The 3 generals (except Erebrus) get stronger the more people there are on your team.  As mentioned, in a 1v1 match the 3 support generals do suck.  However, when you have +25% damage and -25% speed against a target for your whole team that is pretty huge when combined with any of the assassins.  Not to mention +20% movement and attack speed boost to your whole team means no one gets away from Oak.

Sedna obviously has the heals but she also has +20 health per second for the team along with -15% ability cooldown (great with Torch Bearer and Rook) and the very long silence can turn those big 4v4 battles into an easy win if timed well.

Queen of Thorns is more of a pusher/support rather than pure support like Oak and Sedna but with Uproot, Compost and Ground Spikes she can push towers faster than any other demigod (slightly slower than Rook against an undefended tower though).  For support she not only has a ranged 25% multi-target slow but she also has her shield which she can keep up on the whole team if they aren't getting attacked which means over 1000 health on each demigod going into a fight plus another 1000 health every 15 seconds.

All of the above listed abilities are not terribly useful when you don't have teammates to buff but with teammates they become extremely powerful.

Reply #4 from Demigod Forums Top

Ay, There's the rub : if we had good connectivity, we could test all this like beta testers are supposed to.

But I'll make u a bet : see, I'm gonna buy Starcraft 2 when it gets out ( unless it turns out bust, which isn't likely ).

If 1 month into the game on current stats the 3 Weaks together are over 10 of the top 100 ranked players, I'll buy SC2 for u ( or any other game around 50$ ), If not, u will buy SC2 for me. Done ? :smitten:

Reply #5 from Demigod Forums Top

What?

Reply #6 from Demigod Forums Top

It is not really relevent to compare a remake of a rts and Demigod. Starcraft 2 seems more like starcraft 1.1; yes Blizzard has the cash to assure that the game will be as polished as possible but it will not make it even a little original. The 2 games have very little in common, demigod is not really a rts, it is more an action-rpg set in a war background...
Regarding the connectivity, we may have an issue there, gpg and stardocks have been really ambitious there, and i don't know if it was so needed, most rts reactivity is fine, perfectible but good enough. And that new netcode seems to be really hard to develop.

Just have to wait and hope that Demigod will have the success it merits...

Reply #7 from Demigod Forums Top

You're comparing General skills with Assassin skills and want them to be equally powerful. That's not gonna work. Erebus is actually incredible when played right - I've yet to loose against the supposedly overpowered Regulus for example.

Edit: And on Bite - a good Bite means a demigod kill. Buffing it would make Erebus the most overpowered Demigod yet.

Reply #8 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Fred_Bonaparte, reply 6
It is not really relevent to compare a remake of a rts and Demigod. Starcraft 2 seems more like starcraft 1.1; yes Blizzard has the cash to assure that the game will be as polished as possible but it will not make it even a little original. The 2 games have very little in common, demigod is not really a rts, it is more an action-rpg set in a war background...
End of Fred_Bonaparte's quote

lol good job not understanding what he was saying.  I love how people see "SC2" in a post and immediately assume the person is making a comparison and throw out the standard "BUT THEY'RE NOT THE SAME AND YOU CAN'T COMPARE THEM!" response.

 

As for the OP's balance ideas: I like them.

Reply #9 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting PossiblyImpossible, reply 8
lol good job not understanding what he was saying.  I love how people see "SC2" in a post and immediately assume the person is making a comparison and throw out the standard "BUT THEY'RE NOT THE SAME AND YOU CAN'T COMPARE THEM!" response.
End of PossiblyImpossible's quote

Good job missing the point - even if the comparison was valid despite the genre difference (hint: it isn't), there'd still be no point of comparing them. There is no way SC2 will not outsell every other RTS/non-FPS. It will on the power of the Blizzard brand alone - there's no point in bringing it even up because it's success is 100% guaranteed irregardless of actual quality.

Plus, it's pretty easy not to understand what he was saying - it's gibberish.

Reply #10 from Demigod Forums Top

It seems intelligent people misunderstood, therefor the blame is on me.

SC2 served in my posts in this thread merely as a box of chocolates : something to bet on. The bet is still offered.

WC3 served as an example of balance between ranged and melee heros.

Reply #11 from Demigod Forums Top

The topic is quickly going off topic with SC2 talk, which is kinda pointless because its release date is unheard of. My bets are 2011.

Anyway, Sedna is far from being one of the weakest Demigods. Some of the best combos of Demigods in the game consist of her, and in a team match a good Sedna is your best friend. Erebus and Oak however are underpowered as you mentioned.

Like mentioned before, they are generals, and they do not have large spike damage moves as assasins do. However, I think Erebus's bite should be slightly more powerful (dealing maybe 200+ damage then it does later in the game, but not healing that extra 200.)

Reply #12 from Demigod Forums Top

The core of the problem is that generals are balanced under the assumption that their minions are worth more than dog shit.

Reply #13 from Demigod Forums Top

@sorry for the gibberish, english is not my mother tongue and i was probably really tired when i wrote that; because it is indeed gibberish...
Neverless, thank you for explaining my point: a comparison between Demigod and sc2 is pointless.

Back to the real subject, i also think that very often the minions seem totally ineffective and i usually dont use them.

But still,  1800 damages for bite! that attack heals the caster, it shouldn't  remove more than 1k hp. Moreover, I think that generals should rely on auras and group/aoe spells,  not on über-powerfull attacks.

Reply #14 from Demigod Forums Top

Good job missing the point - even if the comparison was valid despite the genre difference (hint: it isn't), there'd still be no point of comparing them. There is no way SC2 will not outsell every other RTS/non-FPS. It will on the power of the Blizzard brand alone - there's no point in bringing it even up because it's success is 100% guaranteed irregardless of actual quality.
End of quote


No, you missed the point.  He only said "if I'm wrong I'll buy you SC2."  He NEVER compared SC2 to anything.  People just immediately assumed that he did and threw out the reactionary response.

Reply #15 from Demigod Forums Top

No, you missed the point.  He only said "if I'm wrong I'll buy you SC2."  He NEVER compared SC2 to anything.  People just immediately assumed that he did and threw out the reactionary response.
End of quote

But whats the point of even mentioning SC2 if its coming out in one - two years? Thats like saying if Demigod fails I will buy Warcraft 4 (because WC4 will come out in ages, it sounds stupid to say that).

Reply #16 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting AngryZealot, reply 12
The core of the problem is that generals are balanced under the assumption that their minions are worth more than dog shit.
End of AngryZealot's quote

Minions are stronger than people think. I've had people ignore them (or confuse them with grunts) and subsequently get half their hitpoints knocked off before they even got into combat with an actual Demigod. The mistake General players seem to make is to keep their minions with them at all times - split up your forces, and support your teammates/cap flags/shop/heal yourself/heal teammates/etc. at the same time.

Reply #17 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting DalzK, reply 15

But whats the point of even mentioning SC2 if its coming out in one - two years? Thats like saying if Demigod fails I will buy Warcraft 4 (because WC4 will come out in ages, it sounds stupid to say that).
End of DalzK's quote

 

SC2 is coming out at the end of this year (beginning of next year at the latest).  Beta is beginning most likely in a couple weeks. 

In any case, that's irrelevant.  He wasn't even being entirely serious, just trying to emphasize how right he felt he is by saying he'll buy somebody something. I just found the reactions to it amusing because people on this forum latch on to certain key words - "SC2" and "DotA" mainly - and run wild with them without really paying much attention to context.

Reply #18 from Demigod Forums Top

I really think you're not an expert, _mercury_ :\

What you said with bite would make him so OP.

And SC2 will probably come out in fall to beat the holiday madrush.

Reply #19 from Demigod Forums Top

And you are right : )

Maybe the fix I suggested is too much. maybe make the leech only half of the damage. I am quite convinced it has to be much stronger than Fireball though.

I think SupCom and even more FA are better RTS games than WC3, in several important aspects. StarCraft2 ( to set apart from SupCom2 ) does have to impress me with something.