What are newbs opinion of handicap games vs skilled.

They don't do any teamwork by necessity.  They don't know each other, and they've never played with each other before.  Teamwork takes practice - something you clans work on together.  A bunch of random people online by definition have not practiced together, therefore there is little to no teamwork.

I don't think "enjoy" is the word.  I'm guessing it's the only thing available.

A pet peeve of mine that's been building for a while but I've never said anything before... the use of the word "skilled" by everyone.  I think the word is used incorrectly.  Skill to me connotes some kind of physical ability that one is good at.  With a strat game, you might say that some pro has great skill with the hotkeys and mouse, where as some newb doesn't.  However, there are newbs that could be quite skilled with hands and fingers, and yet totally suck at the game (their strats and tactics suck, etc), and there could be pros who are good at the game yet don't have great skill with mouse and keys.  I think people should quit using the word "skilled" and just use the word "good" because that's what they really mean when they say "skilled."

Whatever affords the best learning opportunity, and whatever results in the most even odds for the game.  Since I've never seen pros agree to a game with significant odds they might lose, I'm guessing that has to be mixed teams.

Ironically, I hate the word "pro" being used to describe a skilled player.  Pro means Professional, so I have always wondered why it is used.  Skilled, Expert, Elite, Good, etc. all seem better designations to me.  And yeah, motor skills, UI skills, unit management skills...these all have to be developed to make your game good.  It can even be argued that strategy is a learned skill.

But this is totally derailing P5YY's thread, isn't it?

Back on point, do new players enjoy zerg assaults on experienced players?

i dont know i find them fun at times where you might lose like when i was still part of the [_] i almost got crushed by one of these games

I don't think it is 3v1v1v1v1v1 unless the players are so new to Sins they don't know the mechanics or don't know how to chat to each other. I have seen games where the players work together, but it requires someone taking the initiative to say something, or ask for something.

Of course, you do get total noobs who just try and build a fleet, throw it at the "skilled pro" (uh-oh - gonna get busted for that one!!!), lose it and promptly quit.

To summarise - if it is their MP first game I would not expect teamwork. But if they are at about 15-20 games, I would...

This is actually good for the 5 player team, because they get an AI....which is probably better than the guy who just rage quit.

Well, it IS much more helpful for the newbs.  I know I and my friend would have played on a 3v5 long before we tried a 1v1 or 2v2.  As for "teamwork", when you don't even know where the buttons are to share credits/resourses (yet), or how to use the chat (I remember I kept talking to everyone at first, not just my team), then it's almost impossible to do much teamwork.

May you smoke a turd in *HELL* for this blasphemy!

whenever i play on a clan's hosted server in Team Fortress 2 the clan members are on both blu and red, even the guys with reserved spots will choose to balance the teams. putting all the veterans on one team and steam-rolling noobs gets boring after a few minutes. balanced teams always better. same should apply to sins. in a 6 man game with 2 experienced and 4 new players, the experienced guys should be on opposing teams in 3v3, not teamed together in a 2on4. 

That's qute sentiment, however does not work in practice.  Nothing will wreck a game more than a noob in the pocket that doesn't econ.  You could have 2 teams 1 vet and 2 newbies on each.  But on Team A the vet is in pocket, on team B the vet is on the edge and is forced to go military.  That game is pretty much over for team B if the guy in the middle screws up going econ.  This is why good players are hesitant to play with newbies ont heir teams.  If you get a good player on front he may kill 1 guy, but a good player in middle will win the game.

It doesn't always work like that....I find it is pretty important to have a veteran player on the front line because even if you feed a beginner, they can't fight off a veteran...a lot of the feed is wasted.  For my games I usually prefer to have the beginner in the pocket so I can give him a chance to grow where he can make a difference in the game and I'll take my chances fighting someone with a pumped up econ.  If the other teams gets lucky enough to have a decent player on the front and someone who is free to go full econ in this situation, you are pretty much doomed. 

I'll take an average but reliable player who tries hard over an untested player, or someone who is a good player, but unreliable / gives up too easily.

i'm with Cykur. i'd rather have the veteran on the front-line so he can actually use his superior aggression and combat micro skills to make a difference. how hard is it to tell the noob in the pocket to spam trade-ports and give the money to his allies? can train a chimp to econ-boom. 

You would think it is easy. The issue is when they run out of money due to forgetting to do the civic upgrades and they tank their econ with negative income from the underdevelopment tax

Still, it they LISTEN to the good player, they SHOULD do the right thing.....

I do see Cykur's point a little though - we played and I had someone in the pocket feeding me - I all but killed his newb ally and then we played tag until my pocket ally was able to bring a small fleet to reinforce mine. The game ended soon after due to the other side of the map folding, but me being fed meant we were in a sort of holding pattern around each other. Which I considered my job done really - since he is such a good player, stopping him progressing into my territory in good enough for a win if your allies can win the other side of the map. Highly skilled cannot outplay competent players 2v1 due to the economy difference and the extra micro potential.

Yeah, that was a classic example of my least favorite possible start.  I was in the pocket, with one green player next to me and another totally surrounded by you guys.  Siddy was next to me, he rushed and had no econ, so once the first beginner folded he couldn't fight a 2v1.  I fed somewhat but ultimately had to make a fleet to beat you back because you were crushing the beginner next to me and I couldn't see how giving him all my resources was going to slow you down much.  Perfect example why I would rather be on the frontline and pray that the new guy can feed a bit of cash to me.

What would it have been like if is had been you or Siddy in the middle of us, being fed, instead of the newb...

They were too green to be good feeders....but they might have survived long enough to get their fleets into the battle.

well i have played with noob on the front me in pocket and noob on other side feed them both they still lost so im with cykur on this i would rather be on the front

I say just play.  Nothing like taking a good beating once in a while

Never!!!! I'll go down fighting!!!!

Oh wait - that's the point isn't it!!!!

I think the whole "skilled" term comes from knowing what to build vs what.  I've been playing Sins offline since it was released because I had pirated it (I know I know) and played every now and then but the AI bored me so I finally bought it and was hooked on MP.  However, while playing offline I came accross the damage chart on the forums and learned what to use to counter.  This leads to being able to beat at least 30% of the people that play online....because I know what units counter.  I also constantly scout so I know what my opponents fleet consists of and I build accordingly.  I typically always have a backbone of 5 carriers and adjust those numbers accordingly (I'll still have 5 if my adversary is flak spamming).  A flak fleet is pretty nasty though...it takes a lot of work to take down a TEC flak/hoshinko fleet.

It's not really a special skill, its just knowledge of the game and using it to your advantage.  And then come Micro'ing, teamwork and strategic skills.  There are quite a few variables that make a good player and that's why I like Sins...its never just a clickfest.

I like having mixed teams and don't mind playing with noobs as long as they listen and I can coach them on what units counter what.  Nothing kills me more than someone spamming LRM's against a carriers fleet and he continues to spam LRM's for the sake of building units........just pause your production, tech carriers and begin to trench in.  If you are a noob, just listen and learn from your allies.  If you are a "skilled" player, coach your teammates.

skilled is more than just knowing what to build when you need to know how to be a team player, you must be able to micro and micro well so that nothing goes to waist

I might be able to add something to this.

I have played Sins a lot, but not online at all (originally due to a slow rig that lagged horribly - I got booted pre-game for major lagging even on low settings when I tried, now due to a bad internet connection that hopefully will soon be sorted out).  I generally play for the fun of it ie spend half my time putting on cinematic mode and zooming round battles instead of sorting out my empire, so I suspect I would get hammered online (or at least forced to take the game more seriously).

If I was in an online game though, I would hate to be on the front line against skilled players.  I mean, it may be useful to have cannon fodder in front of you as a buffer, but its not so much fun for them.  IMHO the skilled players should be on the front line so the noobs can get themselves going rather than being at the receiving end of a lot of space bashing.

I may make a foray onto online soon (when that stupid router is fixed) so I'll see for myself.

I have played handicaped games before; on both sides... And i can say that for the skilled team its a royal slaughter. i think that P5yy is spot on, in most cases unless the nub side gets lucky with a couple smurf everyone just takes care of them selves ignoring everyone else. having played on the nub side against the likes of DT and 1 [_] it was horrible. 1 person was AFK from the start, one left in first 15 min after being rushed with no comment what so ever, 1 was good but did nothing to help his dying ally what so ever. And 1 just spammed light frigates then started spamming about how much we all sucked and we should get a life. IMO balenced teams>numbers vs skill.

You said you played on both sides. How did the other side play?

i have played both sides leets always win no matter what even if a few are double or tipled in the end the leet team will win