[BALANCE]Which Demigods need Nerfing/Buffing

from Demigod Forums

I think so far Demigod has done really well at balancing when you compare it to beta 1 and beta 2. Its really had huge improvements, but of course, its still pretty unbalanced (as is every game on release/late beta). Heres a list on who needs buffing/nerfing (please add your thoughts):


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Erebus
He has a pretty cool style of play, and is the more difficult to play Demigods - which is fine, because when he play him right he isnt bad at all. I think it can be pretty much agreed though he probably one of the worst (if not the worst) Demigod. The main reason is mainly because his Bite is very buggy - and he can often be quite reliant on it. I think a buff such as making him less mana dependant would be great. Mist mana degen so far is fine - if it was lower he could stay in mist forever/longer. Skills such as bite/batswarm/stun need a slight mana decrease. The reason I say this is because he is very mana depedant - but even when he splashes out all his mana moves, he does hardly any damage/big effect. So to round up:

1. Decrease man cost of some skills/all skills (NOT mist).

2. Give him higher mana/mana regen stats

3. Increase Base Speed. Starting off with a base speed of 6.3 sounds good, and he still would not be faster than Unclean Beast as he does not have any passive speed buffs.

4. AoE stun should cast as fast as Torch Bearer's AoE stun. No reason why it should be slower.


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Oak

The Oak is currently one of the weakest Demigods (bottom 4). I think he needs a few small buffs to make more him a bit more viable in competitive play. Maybe some increased armor on him would suit his whole style of play and help him play as a better Demigod.

1. Give Oak some extra starting armor/better armor growth rate. He is a melee Demigod yet his armor really isnt good enough to tank more than a Regulus can. At Erebus has bite (drain hp), mist, bat swarm and stun to get out if hes in trouble but Oak only has a shield lasting 3-6 secs every 35 secs.


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Queen of Thorns

Despite her buffs from the last build, I still feel she is slightly underpowered. I could be wrong, but I generally think she is. Of course her mulch is great now - but without it she is very poor, and this needs to be changed imo. Doesnt need massive buffs, as she isnt massively underpowered.

1. Shamblers need to be buffed a little - More damage. If are going to put damage up by a lot, then also put their health down by a bit. Since she relies so heavily on Mulch to do well, it means she also has to take the Shamblers skill tree as well, which at the moment isnt great.

2. Again, about Shamblers -  Give them a little side effect. E.g. When hit by Shamblers spikes, you now take 10% more damage. E.g. When near a Shambler you gain + X amount of armor. Those are just two examples, but any others would be great too.


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The Rook

Currently Overpowered in many people's eyes. He needs a small HP nerf - he should still be able to tank, but late game only to a certain extent (cap his Hp at 7k or something). Also, his towers late game can be pretty insane.

1. Lower the cap on late game towers. Ive seen Rooks putting up around 8 towers around the map at one time allowing allies to teleport wherever they want and put you at a huge disadvnatage if your near them.

2. Lower HP (late game at least). I can pretty easily reach 8.2khp in a fullish game. Slightly too much imo, and I think the best solution would be maybe cappting his HP at 7.2k or something?


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Torchbearer

Both overpowered and underpowered. His ice form is too strong, his fire too weak. Shatter can deal 2.9k damage late game while stunning you once and interupting you again and increasing all your cooldowns by 7 seconds. This ontop of slowdowned attack AND movement speed is just too much. Something needs to change.

1. Shatter Damage Decreased. Early game its fine and you start to notice it a bit more mid game - but its lateish game where it really hurts. The shatter combo is really not that hard to do and can fish out a hell alotta of damage (more than Rooks Hammer Slam and about 10x easier to hit, while also putting on increased cooldown, interupts, decreased movement and attackspeed.).

2. Increase Deep Freeze Cooldown. Increasing this cooldown by about 5 seconds or so (more or less, test it and decide) can mean that someone cannot just deal out his shatter combo so easily again and again as all their cooldowns (frost nova, rain, deepfreeze) dont finish at the same time. Lets be honest anyway - who actually uses deep freeze if its not for shatter anyway? So increasing his deep freeze cooldown essentially means instead of dealing 2.9k damage every 11 secs - its not 16 secs.

3. Decrease Frost Nova Range. Its honestly too big at the moment for an AoE stun. Should be reduced by only a bit, but people should be able to run away from it a lot more easily.

4. Ring of Fire buff. There have been quite a few posts/threads on this already so I wont go indepth. To put it it straight - it sucks, and needs a buff. Whether you change it to a meteor (remember reading that? quite random but w/e) or just increase its range or dps, its needed.

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Unclean Beast

This guy is generally known as the better Demigods (possible second or third best). He only needs a smaller nerf imo, like decrease dps a tiny bit or decrease his slow debuffs (50% to hit so first hit doesnt always mean death? He is faster than everyone else in the first place).

1. Decrease DPS (Damage) a tiny bit.

2. Passive Snare has has should be given 50% chance to hit, not 100, as he is already faster than all Demigods.



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For now thats all I have. Two DG's who need buff and two who need nerf. Please post your thoughts/extra ideas and if they are reasonable I will add them here in the thread.

On a seperate note, NERF WYSKRMIN GLOVES AND STAFF OF RENEWAL KK THX. I DONT ENJOY HAVING INSTA-STOP FROM GLOVES AND GETTING 2.9K DAMAGE WITH STUN AND INTERUPT EVERY 6 SECONDS /end noob rant.

4,610 views 34 replies
Reply #1 from Demigod Forums Top

Erebus
I think his base move speed needs to be increased to the same as Unclean Beast's.  Not like he'd be as fast then, since no movespeed buff skill.  And a small base DPS increase.  His skills are actually rather good for the most part, except for the minions related ones.

He'd also be better if his potion skill was 4/7/10% life leach aura, not 0/0/10%.

 

Queen of Thorns
Not sure how you think she's underpowered.  She's one of the best.

Shamblers:  Well.. It's hard to say.  Have you tried these with open form?  The armor reduction from her AoE can makes these pretty useful
   They could use an attack speed inrease, but I'd hate to see thier health nerfed.  They already die really easy to some aoe. :/  Yeti's and Shamblers need to not die easy from AoE.   I think Shamblers are simply weak like all the others, and better +minion stats items would make them fine.  Right now +minion stats items are useless, so so are sort of minions. 
It's all minion builds that need a buff, not just Shamblers, so I don't really understand the just singling out shamblers on this..  I think Shamblers right now at the best of the minions, due to QoT having slow, range and armor reduction.
   I do like the Idea of all the Minions having abilities, like you describe.  Not sure about that specific ones.  Why not items that give the minions Abilities?  "General wand - Shamblers gain ....  Yeti's gain ....  Nightwalkers gain ....  Spirits gain..."  Then I can choose from one of those items on what ability I want my Shamblers to have.
Brambles:  This is currently far too good in the first few levels of the game, ESPECIALLY in 2vs2.  In 2vs2, QoT and an assassin is pretty much unstoppable with having Brambles on herself and an ally, essentially having as much HP as if there were a 3rd person.
It needs to have it's absorb adjusted to 450/700/950/1200, or its mana cost increased 25% for early levels.
Mulch:  The mana cost at higher levels needs to be increased to 550 or so.

 

Oak
   He's the worst.  Worse than Erebus if you know how to play.  I guess some disagree who is 7th worse, and who is 8th worse, but people tend to agree that Oak is either 7th or 8th still.
   He mostly suffers early on.  He doesn't become good unless you manage to get to level 8 or so without being far behind the other players.  It's his lvl 1-3 skills that need buffed.

   I think with Oak, all his skills are pretty nicely designed.  But no 3 of them really comes together as something powerful.  There aren't really much of builds for him. . Yeah, spirits go together well with Soul Power, but it feels like you need more than 1 other skill to go with those two. :/
   Really it seems to me like Soul Power should basically be a part of his raise dead skill, then he has more skill points to use for 2 others skills along with, instead of just 1 other.  Or Soul powers effects being on an item would make for a nice item, but then possibly too good on Erebus.  I'unno.  Or Soul power being max of 2 levels and 25/50 would make it easier to spread points out with him.
Starting Stats: 50 more armor would help.
Shield:  3 seconds is just rather.. useless.  If there were a way to easily self-cast on yourself (like click portrait, or double click) you could at least use it to sort of avoid skills, like snipe, hammer slam, etc.
   But what's worse, is at level 2, it's only an increase to 4 seconds.  It really should be 4/5/6/../.. with at level 2 it giving another bonus, like significantly increased (15-25) MPS and/or HPS for the next 30 seconds.   That'd be 450 health and/or 450 mana at 15 each, or 750 for 25 per second increased.  That'd make shield 2 good, and make him better at level 4, for a start.
Rally:  Should give a 20% speed buff or so as well, trigger even if you just got an assist, and be level 10 requirement, not 15.  This would be very useful in 5vs5's and 4vs4's then.  Maybe REALLY good then, but it requires a tricky condition to get the effect.
Surge of Faith:  The buffing of allies part of it should be range 20.  It's just the same range as the damage, isn't it?   I haven't checked so I could be wrong here.
Penitance: It might be more useful early on if the damage increase was 20% across all levels, and the duration fixed at 7 seconds.  The damage increases later game, on its own, because you're doing more damage.  Early on there isn't much damage to increase.  The progression for movespeed decrease is fine.  Instead have the cooldown decrease over levels.  12/10/8/6 seconds.

The Rook
Starting stats:  His +500 starting hp is fine.  The 2k more at level 20 is not.  He should start at 500 more than the others, and end with 500 more.
Towers:  I think they just need a minimum distance from each other.. like 12-15 at least.  8 is fine, just not all clumped up on one flag.

 

Torchbearer
Deep Freeze:  Shatter being on a skill that is already quite powerful is just what's silly.  :/  Deep freeze is trying to do too many good things at once, and part of it is bugged.  Deep freeze in its current state just isn't really balancable, imo..
Frost Nova:  I think 3 seconds is just too long even at least 15.  And it should have a lower cast time.  Isn't it way faster cast than erebus' AoE stun?  I see no reason why it should be when TB has the advantage of range, more damage, etc..  And Erebus stun i think is smaller AoE.
So yeah, I'd just like the level 3 effect on it still 2 seconds, and just giving another bonus like damage or something. (but not much, just like 300)
If the cast time were slower, there would be more things you can do to react, like stun the TB first.
I believe it is .9 sec cast.  It should be 1.5sec if it is.  Correct me if I'm wrong.
Ring of Fire Buff:  I don't see the point in meteor like people sugest, because rain of ice basically does what it would do then.  Ring of purpose is supposed to put a DoT around you to keep melee from attacking you.  However the damage is so low now, that anyone can just stand in it against a fire TB.
It does need more DPS, or some other bonus effect like lowering your cooldowns of skills while you're standing within it.

 

I agree on what are issues with Rook, TB, and Erebus, just not how to fix them. ^^

Also with the slow gloves, they aren't bad on Sedna.. or when you don't spec for a slow.  It's just they're ridiculous when combined with UB's slow, or maim, so on.
Just capping slow effect at 33%(before speed buffs) would fix all the problems with slow stacking.  Just make hte gloves cost 2.5k, be 20% slow instead of 25%, and lvl1 maim with them woudl be 30% slow.  If reg wants 33%, he can get lvl 2 maim.  But maim needs adjusted too..

Reply #2 from Demigod Forums Top

Good points.  Just some off-the-cuff ideas that I'd like to add:

 

Erebus

-Make his Lifesteal Aura a level 1 or 2 skill (and have its own upgrade line, maybe grants IAS or Movespeed later).  Why it's rank 15 is beyond me.

 

QoT

-Shambler AI needs a fix.  Not only are they weak, they choose not to attack 90% of the time.

-QoT feels like a one-trick pony, and that trick is Bramble Shield.  Mulch is OK and I guess you can hit-and-run with... what's it called, Overgrowth?  The siege skill?  I like QoT's design and her (non-Shield) skills seem like they'd be useful if they had bigger numbers.  That or make her more durable, imo.

 

Regulus

-Baseline passive snare.  No thanks.  Maybe cut it in half if you're nerfing Wyrmskin.  If you're not nerfing Wyrmskin, take it out entirely.

 

Rook

-Flag his summoned towers so they can't be teleported to.

 

Oak

-Seems like it takes Oak too long to "get in gear."  I think the popular notion is that he's extremely week/a feeder before level 7.

WindowBlinds - Free yourself of the default settings, customize your desktop.
Reply #3 from Demigod Forums Top

Nightcrawlers have tons of problems with not attackign too.

 

Spirits for some reason seem to attack all the time, yet the others don't..

Nightcrawlsers seem to behave the worst.  They ignore my orders, move in the opposite direction, won't hit moving targets, won't attacking who I tell them to attack 50 times.  Which I dont' understand, since I would figure they use the same AI.

I'll hit the "Select demigod and minions" button and attack with Erebus and nightcrawlers, and more than half the time they refuse to attack after i right click on someone two dozen times.  And it's not the netlag, they'll still not be attacking seconds later.  I don't get it, especially since this was built on supcom engine, but it's definitely part of why minions are bad.

 

Making rook towers not able to tele too would suck.  Because that's an AWESOMEEE thing to do..  Maybe they just need to ahve that tele animation and take them twice as long to tele to? :\  I would hate to lose that, because it's an awesome ability.  It adds a lot of depth.

 

And lord, I think you're wrong there..  Brambles and mulch is great, but her open form is good too.  She has a nice slow, and I think what you're forgetting is her AoE around her reduces armor a ton.  It's basically +20% damage.  Depends how much armor someone has. (It can be much more than +20%..)
Only way that QoT needs a buff is in using a minion build.  But all the Generals need a buff there.

Reply #4 from Demigod Forums Top

Oak
   He's the worst.  Worse than Erebus if you know how to play.  I guess some disagree who is 7th worse, and who is 8th worse, but people tend to agree that Oak is either 7th or 8th still.
   He mostly suffers early on.  He doesn't become good unless you manage to get to level 8 or so without being far behind the other players.  It's his lvl 1-3 skills that need buffed.
End of quote

After recently playing with him I saw he far from "the worst" Demigod. He has great dps and decent hp/armour and needs the least mana out of all the Demigods in the game which is a pretty big advantage imo. Aswell as this, he is a great support character aswell.

Shield is an amazing skill - it can literally save you and your allies from dying lots of times in a match. Not to mention it dispells spit and stops people getting stunned (currently the only thing to stop yourself and allies getting stunned, apart form mist). Later ingame it always heals 600 hp - not bad, eh?

Penitence - again, another great support AND direct skill. Its so easy to hit other people with as it has such a large range and provides seven seconds of up to 25% more damage being taken and 25% slowdown which is excellent. The best part is, it has a seven second cooldown - ontop of the fact it can do a quick easy 300 damage later too.

Surge of Faith - Provides allies with increased attack speed - only attack that does this (apart from artifact item) and does AoE damage. This combined with his Divine ability (the one that basically acts as a life leech) can get him, his allies, minions and reinforcements that extra hp. In fact, his passive divine ability is basically a life leech aura, except you only get hp when killing.

Soul Power - Gives a free 60+ weapon damage, ontop of his already high dps. Its great. With spirits it can make him even stronger.


I think your main problem is your relying on spirits too much and your ignoring Oak himself. either that or he's just not right for you. A small buff with surge of faith range maybe - but really not that much of a big deal. Kind of like a support UB character, and with spirits. He is definately not the worst though.

Queen of Thorns
Not sure how you think she's underpowered.  She's one of the best.
End of quote


She's far from being one of the best, but also far from being one of the worst. I don see how you think Bramble is OP at all - even at earlier levels. Yes, its actually pretty useful, but it doesnt mean its OP. Without early game bramble what could QoT do effectively? Not much.

It's all minion builds that need a buff, not just Shamblers, so I don't really understand the just singling out shamblers on this.. 
End of quote

Because Oak's spirits do not need buffing at all, are fine the way they are. Rook is assasin, doesnt need minions. Same as Torch bearer. And erebus later game minions are petty decent - you can build up quite a few with of them. Thats why I "singled" out of them. Yes, most minions need a buff, but QoT is one of the most reliant on hers as she needs them to use mulch effectively (her best skill). I will add those later after more tests/feedback with them.

I still dont see why her Shamblers shouldnt get a buff like I posted.


Reply #5 from Demigod Forums Top

I think you missed UB in Demigods that need tweaking.  Fast attack / move speed, great damage, middle of the road hp, activated stun, passive snare, activated damage boost...he's got a whole heck of a lot going for him, and not many glaring weaknesses besides not having a ton of HP / Armor.  Think he mainly needs some tweaking with starting stats.  If he wasn't so solid to begin with, the crazy abilities he gets through passives wouldn't be quite so crazy.

Reply #6 from Demigod Forums Top

Yea kinda overlooked that. Added that his dps should be nerfed a tiny bit (not a lot) and maybe his snares should have 50% chance to hit.

Reply #7 from Demigod Forums Top

Another thing: I agree completely that Erebus needs lower mana cost on his abilities, but I'd like to highlight Bat Swarm.  I see Erebus as potentially having very interesting gameplay with the mobility afforded by Bat Swarm, but the high mana cost is very limiting. 

I also think that if Erebus is really meant to be a General he ought to have at least one strong support ability (the other generals do).  I can't really think of what he has in terms of great support...Mist heals very small amounts of damage, and I think he has a regen aura, but that's not all that noticeable in the thick of things.  Something could be changed to help out with this...probably the best option would be the aura, maybe mist (boost the healing or something).  Could be as simple as changing his aura to a life leech aura that extends to allies and minions.

Reply #8 from Demigod Forums Top

Mist doenst heal anyone btw.

His life leech auro DOES effect allies and minions.

:)

I think the idea of generals being support characters was ditched a long time ago - as sad as it is, it just didnt work :(

Reply #9 from Demigod Forums Top

Yeah, except Oak and Sedna definitely seem to be more in that vein than anything else.  They're certainly nowhere near as good killers as any of the Assassins, and hardly better pushers.

I'd be fine with Erebus being as strong as an assassin, but it would seem to defeat the purpose of being a general.  Whatever works though.

Reply #10 from Demigod Forums Top

Well I sort of think of Erebus as requiring the 1.5k and 1.75k mana items.  When you get those those, it's like 35MPS.

He would do a lot better with having same base movespeed as UB(but still slower like you noted since no passive movespeed skill) and if bite were lower mana cost.

Not getting the life leach aura until level 15 really makes Erebus suffer mid-game, though.  That and more movespeed I think he needs the most.

 

Oh and really good point about his aoe stuns cast time.  I was just thinking about that when reading over Sevenix's thread.

His AoE stun definitely should be 0.9 sec.  But Frost Nova, on the other hand, I think should be 1.5sec cast, not the lowered range on it.  Just keep it a powerful skill(keep in mind erebus stun also takes 4 points for 2 seconds.  Frost nova maxes at 3 skill points.  Granted,  Frost nova is higher level req, but that's why it's bigger aoe)

At 1.5 sec cast you'd have more time to shield/mist/interupt/run.

 

I remember fighting a TB with 2 UB.  (Was you, no?..)  It was so lame trying to get off his stun when Frost Nova casted faster and was much more powerful.  And then ontop of that, TB has much stronger things to do to someone stunned than bite and whack them.

 

 

And Possibly, Sedna is actually great..  She can beat most of the melee Demigod's 1 on 1 with someone good playing her.

Reply #11 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting innociv, reply 10
Well I sort of think of Erebus as requiring the 1.5k and 1.75k mana items.  When you get those those, it's like 35MPS.

He would do a lot better with having same base movespeed as UB(but still slower like you noted since no passive movespeed skill) and if bite were lower mana cost.

Not getting the life leach aura until level 15 really makes Erebus suffer mid-game, though.  That and more movespeed I think he needs the most.

 

Oh and really good point about his aoe stuns cast time.  I was just thinking about that when reading over Sevenix's thread.

His AoE stun definitely should be 0.9 sec.  But Frost Nova, on the other hand, I think should be 1.5sec cast, not the lowered range on it.  Just keep it a powerful skill(keep in mind erebus stun also takes 4 points for 2 seconds.  Frost nova maxes at 3 skill points.  Granted,  Frost nova is higher level req, but that's why it's bigger aoe)

At 1.5 sec cast you'd have more time to shield/mist/interupt/run.

 

I remember fighting a TB with 2 UB.  (Was you, no?..)  It was so lame trying to get off his stun when Frost Nova casted faster and was much more powerful.  And then ontop of that, TB has much stronger things to do to someone stunned than bite and whack them.

 

 

And Possibly, Sedna is actually great..  She can beat most of the melee Demigod's 1 on 1 with someone good playing her.
End of innociv's quote

 

Never said Sedna wasn't actually good, just that she seems created as a support character.  Most of her abilities are healing / regen / silence.  She can hold her own, but she shines most as enabling other people to get kills.

Reply #12 from Demigod Forums Top

Pounce is a great skill.. it's only .3 cast time, and interupts along with the 1050 damage.  The only thing stopping her from being great at hunting people down and killign them like UB is her lack of a slow skill.

Reply #13 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting innociv, reply 12
Pounce is a great skill.. it's only .3 cast time, and interupts along with the 1050 damage.  The only thing stopping her from being great at hunting people down and killign them like UB is her lack of a slow skill.
End of innociv's quote

Nevertheless, Sedna is still the best support Demigod.  Whether she can kill or not, she's not as good a killer as the Assassins.  That's fine because her support abilities make up for it.  Other generals don't have it so good, mainly Erebus.  Not as good a killer as an Assassin, not as good at support as Sedna or even Oak / QoT.

Reply #14 from Demigod Forums Top

I think the main problem here is that the assassins are, in general, way more powerful than generals, and I'm not just talking about the demigod's personal strength and abilities.  I think, if played right, generals should be able to take on an assassin 1v1 and have a fair chance.  As it is, any assassin is gonna get whooped by an assassin every time.  A general's supposed power lies in it's minions, and for the most part, any assassin can blast right through the minions and take out the general easy.  I think buff for minions would greatly help the generals.

Reply #15 from Demigod Forums Top

The Generals can fight Assassins 1vs1 now if you aren't using minions.  With minions they do worse is what the problem is.

Reply #16 from Demigod Forums Top

Hmmm had a match vs an Erebus using all his night walkers and idols. They actually hurt quite a bit...Will have to try in a more viable match.

Reply #17 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting [AC,
DalzK" reply="16" id="2103760"]Hmmm had a match vs an Erebus using all his night walkers and idols. They actually hurt quite a bit...Will have to try in a more viable match.
End of [AC's quote

Night walkers seem unable to hit/attacking moving targets.  Is why they fail.  They do alright against someone standing still.

Reply #18 from Demigod Forums Top

Night walkers seem unable to hit/attacking moving targets.  Is why they fail.  They do alright against someone standing still.
End of quote

They can to a certain extent but I think if they could hit moving targets that would be an element of op'ness.

Reply #19 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting DalzK, reply 18

They can to a certain extent but I think if they could hit moving targets that would be an element of op'ness.
End of DalzK's quote

Don't quite get your point here; you think a player should just be able to move to avoid taking any damage from Night Walkers?  Seems silly.

Reply #20 from Demigod Forums Top

Yeah.. And spirits can hit moving targets alright.  Not sure about Yeti's since i've only used them once.  They're a waste of mana.

Reply #21 from Demigod Forums Top

Don't quite get your point here; you think a player should just be able to move to avoid taking any damage from Night Walkers?  Seems silly.
End of quote

Yes your right you shouldnt be able to avoid taking damage from 10 night walkers they should always hit you...

Just imagine if spirits could hit you all the time even when moving/running.

Reply #22 from Demigod Forums Top

Pretty much every demigod has AoE, and there is an item that insta-kills small units in AoE.  Nightwalkers and Spirits are small.

 

Considering how many things instakill small units, if anything Spriits and nightwalkers should be the best minions..

Reply #23 from Demigod Forums Top

Apart from heavens wrath/finger of god what else kills small units?

Reply #24 from Demigod Forums Top

Fire Nova, the 8k orb, boulder.

Also, heavens wrath is a favor item, so.. :/

Reply #25 from Demigod Forums Top

Although i agree with many things writen in this thread, i would like to remember people that many of the OP solutions for any of this demigods some times rely on items, and if you buy one item the other guy in the other team can buy another, items need to be balanced but should not interfer much in balancing demigods.

 

For instance:

TB has a very powerfull combo, powerfull when you get the 3 skills in ICE to complete the combo, but must one remind that in order to complete the combo TB as to buy a mana item, like the "+1500 mana 1500g" or the item to the right of it "1750g". Without at least one of this items you will find it hard to relly make the combo effective and finish another human player. Killing AI players is very easy and shouldn't count for balance.

I gave TB as an example because imo is probably the more mana dependant demigod, but happens with others too.