[Balance] Where Have All The Generals Gone?

Long time passing

from Demigod Forums

So here we are a month from release and Generals still aren't behaving like Generals.  Sedna foregoes Yetis but is beating up UB, QoT uses Shamblers mainly as fertilizer, and no one seems to be playing Oak unless victory is guaranteed.  I would say something about Erebus, but I haven't seen him to play against in weeks.  Does anyone use idols except in 1 v 1 against another general?  If they do, do they win?  I know the devs spent alot of time and effort implementing idols, but the baseline mechanic just doesn't make them worth it relative to equipment, right now.

I was comfortable with tactical, squad-based Generals - I didn't need base-builders or supcom-style ACUs.  Generals as "Assassins with Pets" worked fine for me.  But right now people are playing Generals as Assassins without Pets, and it's the optimum build in most cases.  Don't take my word for it.  Do some playtesting with some of us and find out for yourself.  (Two good Assassins without Pets teams I encourage the Devs to track down and play against are 1. Iamkira and Terror and 2. TheBigOne and TheLittleOne - they are on all the time and I'm sure they be happy to demonstrate ^^) 

Don't get me wrong - I'm all about build flexibility - I just wish we could get a minion build to play on the Demigods with, you know, the minions ^^

So here are some long-term tweaks for Generals to go with the Minions thread I posted over here (in that thread I said we should greatly increase minion damage and lower minion health):

- Lower General's normal damage 30-50% but add unique debuff to normal hits for Generals (which can be increased through skill choices.) 

Example - At level 1 on target QoT's hits have a 3% chance to steal 50 mana, Sedna's hits have 3% chance to Silence for 2 seconds, Oak's hits have 3% chance to lower armor 15% for 5 seconds, and Erebus' hits have 3% chance to do something cool I haven't thought of ^^.  Make it synergize with other General abilities so that proc chance increases when other debuffs are applied.  So when Sedna uses Pounce her chance to Silence increases 20%

- Lower General's spell damage 30-50% but increase buff and debuff effects 30%.  Sedna does a stupid amount of damage with Pounce.  Not to mention the debuffs or the interrupt.  It should be the other way around.

- Lower General health 30% at all levels, but increase health regeneration 50% - A General, even with a shield or heal ready, shouldn't be happy to trade hits with an Assassin.  If they get hit a couple of times and manage to get out of the battle, though, they should be able to come back in pretty quickly. 

Combine this with glass cannon minions and you get a Demigod who is really good at supporting Allies and Minions but who relies on them for the damage in most cases.  Unique minions have value.  The Assassins without Pets build is still available but no longer optimal.  

The normal-hit debuffs are probably too intensive to get in before release, but I really don't think it would be all that hard to tweak the other numbers here, and I, for one, would love to at least try a build that looks like this.

1,531 views 7 replies
Reply #1 from Demigod Forums Top

generals need to be better imo, and they should fix them as well as connection.

Idea i had about generals

Reply #2 from Demigod Forums Top

sedna can not buy staff of renewal it is a assasin item afaik

Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from Demigod Forums Top

lol you are right, edited

Reply #4 from Demigod Forums Top

I agree with the sentiment..

I just don't really agree what what you think the solutions are.

 

Generals should be(and some of them are) viable when played as an assassin.  But the primary builds that focus on them using minions and idols simply.. don't really exsist.

Oak seems to do best with a minion build simply because of the huge damage increase they give them. :\
He is actually good later in the game,(by level 8 or 9 or so) it's just he's so bad for the first few levels that the assassins can get such an an advantage over later on by using their earlier on advantage. :\

Reply #5 from Demigod Forums Top

But the primary builds that focus on them using minions and idols simply.. don't really exsist.
End of quote

Right.  Because if I'm playing an assassin I will ignore minions and focus all of my damage on the General.  (When the General dies so do his minions - maybe things would be different if minions were like Rook's towers...)  I can safely ignore minions because they don't do any real damage right now. 

The thinking is that deadlier minions would fix that, but maybe not.  In Beta 2 Spirits were strong enough to take down the citadel by themselves...

It's interesting that you point to Oak's damage buff.  It's the only thing that keeps Oak's minion build alive right now.  The others need something as simple and effective as that. 

 

 

Reply #6 from Demigod Forums Top

Man, why can't we get an ability like: While minions are alive, % (you set this number) damage you take is spread out to the minions. That way we can't just focus on the hero, AOE attacks which hit the minions could be way more useful (depending on the number set above). ..Of course, it would need some limits like the minions have to be "nearby" for this to work...so you can't leave them at the fountain :P.

Another fun ability would be if we could give debuffs to the minions...so every hit a minion does on a hero, that hero slows down by a certain %. Or a minion mana-drain...So this way you could send the minions first to "weaken" the enemy (or force the hero to KILL the minion and waste mana) before you attack.

-Drexion

Reply #7 from Demigod Forums Top

hmmm, interesting.  Variation on Iconus?  Who would you give this to?  I'm thinking Sedna, since Yetis are tanks and she is the healer... 

As a bit of background for innociv and Drexion, glass cannon minions and support Generals was an attempt to balance using only number tweaks.  The devs have stopped coding C and anything changed from now til release will be LUA values only.  So roughly what numbers need to shift to put Demigod in a better place?