[Balance] How to re-work the Generals

1. Make them gain experience and gold at the rate of their minions. I.E. If you put all spawned minions in one lane, you get full XP and gold for that lane, as if you were there. If you split between three lanes, you get a third of each.

2. Remove all cool downs and mana costs for spawning Minions. This makes the limiting factor travel time. Some minions should travel faster than others. Additionally, for idol spawned minions, I think it should be a 12 overall cap, not 4 of each type. This especially makes strategy nonexistent. This means for example if your team was going to do a tower push, you could spawn 12 siege units. Alternatively, simply make them cost gold to spawn. 100 per Minotaur Captain or whatever the first level one is. For the idols, I just stayed at the heal crystal until the CDs were done, then did it again and off I went.

3. Add better minion controlling UI. I am looking at how many times I overspawned Yetis.

4. Nerf the Generals themselves.

5. Buff their minions. (If this is needed?)

6. Make the Citadel give special auras to Generals to improve them.

7. You have to make the cursor a LOT more distinctive. While I appreciate the new outlines and cursor colour changes, they make the cursor completely damned invisible in a big fight.

8. There really has to be more strategy to the minions. ATM it's just spawn the biggest number of the most powerful and lob them in. It feels very depthless. If you want to call this an RTS component, there has to be more of an S. The enemy Demigod should really matter. The minions you've chosen should really matter. #2 will help with this as well. There's no economy element, few choices of minions, and even fewer choices of how to use them, except replicating an Assassin's function, except with 20 minions instead of 1 hero.

9. There absolutely must be more RTS interface available. For example, not seeing group makeup. The selection rings are also very difficult to see with a lot going on, and aren't a lot more than the mouseover rings, especially at a glance. You can't select all your minions of Type X, and the hotkeys for your abilities are all over the damn keyboard. Each unit should be more directly controllable. For example, your priest type units, you should be able to manually tell them which other unit to heal, and when.

10. Finally, your ranged minions should have "ranged" as a bit more generous. At the moment they're about a second out from melee. Hardly justifies their weakness.

I just played a game as Sedna, and while I appreciated the work gone into the Demigod, it feels very.. an Assassin with minions. The bloody Idol cooldowns are pointless and irritating. I think a blend of the above factors makes Generals a lot more RTS. After playing, I get the distinct feeling that there is a good reason why nobody ever mixed RTS and RPG before. This doesn't even qualify as real time tactics.

Don't forget that as an RTS, which game have half your fanbase just come from playing? Supreme Commander. So we know you can do it. Hell, rip half the gameplay mechanics off, I really don't care. But when an interview said that playing a general would feel like playing SupCom instead of Diablo, well, that isn't really the feeling I get.

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Reply #1 Top

I think theres a lot of great ideas in here, but that is only one interpretation of the "General".  To me what you are describing is just adding a bunch of micro management.  I personally HATE micromanagement but still enjoy playing as generals.  I like the idea of being able to choose more than 4 of each minion type, especially if u have a prefered style of fighting (ranged, melee, heal/support, etc), but having to control each minion group is, in my mind, just way too much.  I think if they made it more like pets in WoW and gave them orders like Aggressive, follow, and defensive or something to that degree so that its not just click everyone and click attack, then that would be acceptable.

 

I'm just worried that by your suggestions theyre going to make it TOO RTS instead of just having a portion of it.  Having choice between the two styles of gameplay would be good possibly, but at the same time thats asking quite a lot i think.

Reply #2 Top

I dodnt like 1 and 6 but yes generals need to be alittle weaker when it comes to killing but minions dodnt need to be that much stronger because if u have all minions possible maxed out they can easily push the tide. i like the rest of your idea but yet again this is one perspective. I think the biggest thing to consider when making a general, is that each demigod has a personality, their gameplay should reflect their personality.

Reply #3 Top

You can't make it too RTS, since they were marketed as RTS gameplay.  I'm looking for a bunch more S. Yes, there's some RT here, but no S.

Reply #4 Top

Arrrrrrgh (I'm not going to try and spell your name right) is right, in a way. It may come to it eventually that Generals are simply nerfed assassins with minions. If this is what happens, then so be it.

I'd personally prefer to see squads of minions than individual units; this would make selection and micromanagement easier. Keep the idol summoning method, allow 2 squads of 4 spawned minions per idol. Minions should scale automatically with their General's level, and there should also be optional stat increases in the General's skill tree and gear choice.

That's what I feel I would realistically want from Generals. Other things that are less important are minion veterancy (the better the minion does, the stronger it gets) and a context sensitive ability for each minion (as I described in the mahoosive post in the Generals Thread).

That's a point too. Why wasn't this put into the Generals thread?

>:(  

Reply #5 Top

I gave this sugestion in a thread in the sugestions forum:

Why not remove the default 3 types of minions (melee/ ranged/ priests) and just leave the generals with the special minions (Yetis, Treethingies, Spirits, the other one) and at the same time give skills to the generals that require/ interact with the minions. Just like the QoT skill where she sacrifices a minion to gain HP?

One type of minions, stronger maybe, would be easy to control, fast sumonable and give interaction with it. The general would gain smth more besides the extra unit. This way you dont need to nerf the generals so much and they would be diferent from assassins, and at the same time remove the money sink that idols are.

Reply #6 Top

I really hope there is more stratedgy to Generals in the next build. Right now I would have to agree that there wanna be assasains with pets.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting aarrgghh87, reply 1
.  To me what you are describing is just adding a bunch of micro management. 
End of aarrgghh87's quote

 

That's exactly why his ideas are good.  Controlling the Generals is far too "sit back and watch things unfold" at the moment.  It's boring, and doesn't require a whole lot of skill.  Even Assassins could use a bit more finesse and fast thinking.  In general I'd say the pace of the game seems pretty slow even if games dont' last as long as they did before.

Reply #8 Top

I play them as assassins with pets

Reply #9 Top

Quoting Cowbuttzex, reply 6
I really hope there is more stratedgy to Generals in the next build. Right now I would have to agree that there wanna be assasains with pets.
End of Cowbuttzex's quote

 

To be honest I don't see a huge difference between the generals now and a legit rts.  I got this game for rts gameplay and I am reasonably happy.  I would like more general (minion) items in the shop.  Other than that I am quit pleased how it is shaping up.  There is a huge improvement from beta 2 to beta 2a in generals' gameplay.

Reply #10 Top

Quoting Trigeminal, reply 9

Quoting Cowbuttzex, reply 6I really hope there is more stratedgy to Generals in the next build. Right now I would have to agree that there wanna be assasains with pets.
 

To be honest I don't see a huge difference between the generals now and a legit rts.  I got this game for rts gameplay and I am reasonably happy.  I would like more general (minion) items in the shop.  Other than that I am quit pleased how it is shaping up.  There is a huge improvement from beta 2 to beta 2a in generals' gameplay.
End of Trigeminal's quote

It's better than it was (Minions at least DO something now) but it could be even better. I'd like to see Minions buffed even further than they are now, and Assassins nerfed slightly.

I suppose the optimum solution is to have multiple trees on the General's skill trees; some develop General skills (minions, etc) and the others develop more assassin like qualities.

Reply #11 Top

Sacrificing a minion to gain HP is something that requires the General's presence and assumes he/she has been in combat. You can't fight your battles without your General right there in the front line, so they're not going to be different from Assassins. I think the main problem is this dependency. If it were to be that a General did not have to be on the front line to function as normal, then it would be better.

Reply #12 Top

Quoting DeadMG, reply 11
You can't fight your battles without your General right there in the front line, so they're not going to be different from Assassins. I think the main problem is this dependency. If it were to be that a General did not have to be on the front line to function as normal, then it would be better.
End of DeadMG's quote

Exactly my thoughts.

Reply #13 Top

We have to distinguish balance and gameplay modification. Demigod is not about having CnC or W3 with a general/assassin but a game about strategic decision in real time, so called RTS ;P .

So I only agree with number 8, "NO minion choices". This as to be solved.

 

The other point are more about balance thing, and because of netcode problem, I don't think, we can't really talk about balance yet.

Reply #14 Top

Quoting DeadMG, reply 11
Sacrificing a minion to gain HP is something that requires the General's presence and assumes he/she has been in combat. You can't fight your battles without your General right there in the front line, so they're not going to be different from Assassins. I think the main problem is this dependency. If it were to be that a General did not have to be on the front line to function as normal, then it would be better.
End of DeadMG's quote

 

Taking the general off the front lines brings up issues.  Though it depends on how far behind the front lines you're talking.  If the general can just sit in the base, it brings up the question: "why give the general a physical avatar?"

Reply #15 Top

I think all of the generals should have some kind of buffing and debuffing auroras for both its minions AND the normal creeps. This would make a general with an army much better. I think if more thought was put into buffs and debuffs the game play for generals could go to a hole new level of strategic depth.

FOR EXAMPLE: This is for people that have played BFME 2, Gothmog was a monster of a hero because of his leader ship abilities. He buffed your units by 50 + attack and Armor if I remember right. When Gothmog was with a group of orcs he was a machine.

I believe that a very strong solution to the Generals problem would be to impliment buffing and debuffing arouras as a skill tree path. This would give players more incentive to use minions and take advantage of a generals ability to make his own little wreaking crew.

Reply #16 Top

I agree with Cowbuttzex. I think generals need to have some effectiveness fighting at the front line, but should be concentrated more on supportive skills like buffs/debuffs. There just arnt enough of them in the game atm imo.

Reply #17 Top

Games are meant to be short. Players shouldn't have to be frantic micro managing in what is being dubbed as the "Counter-strike of RTS".

 

The idols after Level 1 are essentially not worth buying. Just leave it as a single idol and keep their progression in General skills.

 

Reply #18 Top

I believe this is already in the Generals Discussion thread that Orlean started but I'd really like to see Minions with special abilities that have cooldowns just like the General/Assassin. As of now all the Minions run in and attack and that's about it, it would be nice to feel like i'm microing multiple units to their fullest instead of attacking moving everyone in and using just my General's abilities.

*Just read the "Minions, what Minions" thread after this one sorry for this reply lol

Reply #19 Top

minons past level one can be extremely deadly whe  grouped, espicially if u send them aroun so u dodnt have to fight Dg's

Reply #20 Top

Quoting hiddenranbir, reply 17
Games are meant to be short. Players shouldn't have to be frantic micro managing in what is being dubbed as the "Counter-strike of RTS".

 
 
End of hiddenranbir's quote

 

Frantic, no.  But should they have to be actively engaged in the control of their Demigod / units at all times?  Yes.  In order to be really good at this game, you should have to be doing something at all times, making full use of your time.  You should never be able to sit back and relax and still be getting the most out of your Demigod.  That doesn't mean great micromanagement should be required in order to have any success at Demigod.  But players ought to be able to make use of micromanagement (and macromanagement) skills in order to outshine their competition. 

There should be a way for players to be putting their skills to use at all times.  Otherwise, there's a low skill ceiling on the game, which is undoubtedly a bad thing.

 

Just because Generals are meant to represent a more RTS style of gameplay doesn't mean they should require less finesse.  In any good RTS, you have to actively control your units at all times with good micro in order to get the most out of them.  So in the case of generals, you should have to do that with your minions if not your Demigod as well. 

At the moment I don't see a lot that rewards players for getting the most out of their units in this fashion.  It's more about spawning as many units as possible and keeping a large army out at all times, and then sending it to the right parts of the map at the right times.  While that does involve some knowledge of the game and some planning, it's not something that you build on a whole lot.

 

Finally, why does everybody act like a player wants a game to be a FPS if they mention micro or fast decision making / finesse as an important factor in making a competitive game?  Many genres incorporate these elements - especially RTS.  To me, it seems like people just don't want practiceable skills and techniques to be included in the game; they'd rather have the "skill" of a game be based entirely on knowledge and practiced build orders / plans.  Unfortunately, a game based solely on that kind of "skill" won't have a competitive scene with very much depth.

Reply #21 Top

Really, the main problems I found were that the minions were minions, not the main source of power.