You might be anti-American IF...

What is anti-Americanism?

from JoeUser Forums

Predictably, when someone talks about anti-Americanism the far left will begin distorting it to sound like that if you criticize your country then you are "UnAmerican".  Pretty soon, the original point is turned into a charactiture of itself and the original author's points are ridiculed into oblivion.

Criticizing the policies of your country does not make you unpatriotic. Not agreeing with the US President doesn't make you anti-American.  The intellectually lazy may find it appealing to hide their anti-Americanism behind principled disagreement on policy. But most people with common sense understand there is a difference between disagreeing with US policy on some issue and being anti-American.

So here's a quick guide:

You might be anti-American IF:

  1. You think the average American is "stupid" or "a sheep" or "brain washed".
  2. You prefer law be made by appointed judges rather than elected officials.
  3. You think of the United States, as a whole, to be "the greatest threat to world peace".
  4. You think American culture is a grotesque cancer spreading across the world.
  5. You think that the United States is the greatest threat to the environment.
  6. You think that the United States kind of "had it coming" on 9/11 because of years of its "foreign policy"
  7. You hope that the United States "loses" in Iraq.
  8. You would like to see China or Russia or the European Union act as a "counter balance" to the US militarily
  9. You consider Bush, Clinton, or any other US President a "War criminal"
  10. You believe that US-style capitalism is a force for global ruin, individual degradation, or environmental catastrophe

You'll note that none of these 10 items involves criticizing a US policy. Or voting for a particular presidential candidate. Or even what kind of car you drive.

Someone who is anti-American is probably not as likely to buy an American made car as someone else.  But not owning an American made car doesn't make you anti-American (I realize this should be obvious but based on some of the things I've read in response to my article this basic bit of logic seems to elude some people).  Driving to some anti-Bush protest in your Volvo with your "No blood for oil" sign may be SYMPTOMS of being Anti-American but these things in themselves do not make someone anti-American.

You'll also note that there is a difference between being anti-American and Un-American.  Thinking that the US deserves to be attacked by terrorists is different than being in favor of say laws that censor critics of the government.  The former would be a symptom of anti-Americanism and the latter would be a symptom of being un-American in my opinion.

That's my 2 cents on it anyway. 

philosophy
19,315 views 52 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
You beat me to this one, I shouldn't have had that nap
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
I shouldn't have had that nap


I had a nice nap too.
Curtains - Customize Windows with additional styles
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
You think the average American is "stupid" or "a sheep" or "brain washed"


Boy, don't let Patriot see that, nobody would DARE infer that the great Patriot Flamethrower is anti-American.

Other than that, I have nothing to say. I think some of what the United States does/is involved in isn't for the greater good. Perhaps, dare I say, more of what we do ISN'T for the greater good rather than IS.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top

more of what we do ISN'T for the greater good rather than IS.


As opposed to who? Find me another country who does more for the greater good than the USA.

 

P.S. The Flamethrower thing made me chuckle... hehe

Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well that's humbling.

Point taken. Won't change my opinion, but you've succeeded in making me feel foolish.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top

you've succeeded in making me feel foolish.


Well i didn't aim to make you feel foolish Ap just didn't see the logic was all.

Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
You must also remember that what our government does is for the greater good of it's citizens, not the rest of the world. If these happen to coincide well and good.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'll put myself on trial here with your points.

You think the average American is "stupid" or "a sheep" or "brain washed".
Not guilty. I come into contact with school children everyday that impress on me how individual their thinking really is.

You prefer law be made by appointed judges rather than elected officials.
Not guilty. I'm against activist judges. Dictating from the bench that "under God" can't be in the pledge is an abuse of power, and worse, silly. The people of Massachusetts should have been able to vote in a referendum on the gay marriage issue, or their elected officials in the legislature should have made the decision. However, sometimes the courts can be useful in overturning laws -- for example, Brown vs. the Board of Education of Topeka, KS

You think of the United States, as a whole, to be "the greatest threat to world peace".
Hung jury. The key here is "greatest." I don't think we are the greatest threat to world peace, Russia, China, Israel, Pakistan, India, Arab fundamentalists, and European "head in the sand-ism" are also grave threats to world peace.

You think American culture is a grotesque cancer spreading across the world.
Not guilty. If folks want their McDonald's, then let there be Big Mac's.

You think that the United States is the greatest threat to the environment.
Hung jury. I think the industrialized world is the greatest threat to the environment. This includes the US, but Russia and China, for two, are much bigger polluters.

You think that the United States kind of "had it coming" on 9/11 because of years of its "foreign policy"
Not Guilty. But it's a loaded statement. Our "foreign policy" has engendered harsh sentiments across the world. Does this give anyone the right to kill innocents? Without a doubt, no.

You hope that the United States "loses" in Iraq.
Not Guilty. But then again, I never wanted us to fight a war there in the first place.

You would like to see China or Russia or the European Union act as a "counter balance" to the US militarily
Not Guilty. Although probably inevitable.

You consider Bush, Clinton, or any other US President a "War criminal"
Not Guilty. He's made mistakes, but he's not Stalin or Pol Pot.

You believe that US-style capitalism is a force for global ruin, individual degradation, or environmental catastrophe
Hung jury. I don't think it is intentionally so all the time. And there are many, many cases in which it is a force for global growth -- for example, I recently defended Halliburton for a deal made with Iraq in the 90's. Some would be upset that Halliburton sold oil equipment to Iraq -- but coupled with that sale were machines for sewage processing and water purification. Selling somebody a clean drink of water is never bad. US businesses can cause harm, but they also do a lot of good.

Good post. Cheers.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well I can't think of anything to add. Great post.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top

If these happen to coincide well and good.


A good point, we tend to act in enlightened self interest, most of the time this tends to help the rest of the worlds govern,ment but if it doesn't it is the other governments job to do what is necessary to help themselves. Sometime this will cause conflicts of interest. Thats why they call it politics.

Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Dragional,

I'm going to have disagree you on the anti-Americanism of the left (in general and not in the blogging sense). I've always gotten the impression that it was some form of propaganda coming from the right and that the right had something to hide. I remember reading in the Detroit News (and I'm trying to search for it in the Free Press), Donald Rumseld being quoting as saying, "if you criticize the United States or President Bush, you're being unpatriotic."

I read that, and I just got a chill from it. Being able to criticize our government is our right and I felt that at that time, Rumsfeld was telling the America people not to question why it happened. I felt that at any time to question our government, it was then. I knew I was. I remember seeing the images and thinking "how did this happen?"

September 11 aside, it's dissent all together. I feel for the majority of Bush's presidency he has effectively controlled the press. My source here is fair.org, which cites a Washington Post story from June 15, 2002. Bush spoke at a Ohio State University. It was written there wasn't any dissent. Quotes from other sources regarding the lack of dissent: "Graduates had been warned during rehearsal on Thursday that they faced arrest if-- as was rumored-- some stood up and turned their backs on Bush during his speech." The warning continued on the day of the event as well, according to the Associated Press (6/14/02): "Immediately before class members filed into the giant football stadium, an announcer instructed the crowd that all the university's speakers deserve to be treated with respect and that anyone demonstrating or heckling would be subject to expulsion and arrest." **

And some observers did, in fact, notice protests during the ceremony. As reported in The Lantern (6/14/02), Ohio State University's campus paper, "Three graduates and six audience members-- one draped in a Palestinian flag-- actually did turn their backs but were hardly noticed by the crowd of about 60,000." A demonstration held outside the stadium attracted a small group of protesters as well (Columbus Dispatch, 6/15/02).

Unfortunately, I couldn't find in the Free Press and the Detroit News, you have to pay for back issues. However, I'm trying to find that quote from Rumsfeld.

As a Democrat, I feel that Bush has gotten it pretty easy media-wise, especially after September 11 (with the exception of this year). Criticizing the government isn't Anti-American. It's just that we are being feed that it is, which is wrong.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top

Criticizing the government isn't Anti-American.


Umm did you even read the second to the last paragraph of this article? Or the rest of it?

Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Oops. Sorry, I went off a rant. I apologize. I'm not used to being on the political threads.

Sorry, Dragional. I didn't mean to hijack your thread. Delete it if you want.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top

Oops. Sorry, I went off a rant. I apologize


Hell you get an insightful just for being willing to apologize. Candor of that sort is often in short supply Dusk.

Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
Draginol:

I would agree with the article in general. Howver, I am not sure what the American car has to do with it. I mean, I have bought American and foreign cars and found the foreign ones more reliable. I generally get 8 years out of them versus 5 for an American. I have no bumper stickers on my cars and never have had.

Personally, the difference between a patriot and and someone who dislikes America is the attitude. A patriot loves his country enough to fight for the things that will make her better. The "Anti-American" is someone who has no vision for "better" only for worse.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top

No problem Dusk,

You did illustrate the intent of my post. It really sets me off (not your post but as a generalization) when someone tries to paint those of us who rail against anti-Americanism as being a bunch of narrow minded goose stepping goons who equate obedience to the government with patriotism.

Rumsfeld, btw, did not state that criticizing the President is unpatriotic. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a quote like that.  I think what is more likely is that the press took a sound bite out of context and inferred that.  I remember last month when a Cheney sound bite was manipulated into sounding like Cheney was saying that if Kerry wins we'll be attacked by terrorists which was not what he was saying at all.

Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
Damn it! I'm anti-American! Oh well. I guess I'll just have to chant "Death to American Pigdogs!" or something while rhythmically moving my AK-47 above my head, the great rebel that I am.

I think the US did kind of have it coming with 9/11 (i mean even the conservatives argue that terrorism is inevitable, so of course the US and every other nation has/had it coming).

I'd like to see the EU become a counter-balance to the US because then hopefully both will be involved with each other long enough for the glorious rise of the Australian empire.

I think most US presidents are war criminals, as are most world leaders; it's of the nature of global politics that eggs are broken in the making of omelettes. But I'd prefer a war criminal for a president than someone with unshakable principles who would be incapable of making the hard decisions.

The rest I either disagree with or can't fully agree with.
- the average American, like a huge minority of Australians, is fat, but not necessarily stupid if the stats are to be believed;
- judges make poor rulers nearly every time they make it into positions of considerable power, and history has shown that time and again;
- the US is currently the greatest threat to the sovereignty of most of the world, but they win wars so quickly world peace doesn't really get affected that much.
- American culture is mostly hideous, but then again anyone who makes intelligent, witty shows like "South Park", "Malcom in the Middle" and the rest can't be all bad.
- I don't want the US to lose in Iraq because then everyone's wasted their time and money, but I think they're going about the whole thing the wrong way.
- US-style capitalism brought together the slave-labour necessary to create every bit of clothing I'm wearing now and most of the things I own. I have no intention of talking down the fruits of empire. I don't see any reason to feel shame for the horror inflicted in my name.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
You think the average American is "stupid" or "a sheep" or "brain washed".
Not at all.

You prefer law be made by appointed judges rather than elected officials.
Not at all.

You think of the United States, as a whole, to be "the greatest threat to world peace".
Not at all.

You think American culture is a grotesque cancer spreading across the world.
Not at all.

You think that the United States is the greatest threat to the environment. Not quite.
I believe that IRRESPONSIBLE companies is a threat to the environment.

You think that the United States kind of "had it coming" on 9/11 because of years of its "foreign policy" Not at all.
You hope that the United States "loses" in Iraq. Not at all.

You would like to see China or Russia or the European Union act as a "counter balance" to the US militarily Not at all.
You consider Bush, Clinton, or any other US President a "War criminal" Not at all.

You believe that US-style capitalism is a force for global ruin, individual degradation, or environmental catastrophe.
Not quite. I believe that IRRESPONSIBLE companies is a threat to the environment.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think the US did kind of have it coming with 9/11 (i mean even the conservatives argue that terrorism is inevitable, so of course the US and every other nation has/had it coming).


There's a big difference between something being inevitable and something being deserved.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm going to have disagree you on the anti-Americanism of the left (in general and not in the blogging sense). I've always gotten the impression that it was some form of propaganda coming from the right and that the right had something to hide. I remember reading in the Detroit News (and I'm trying to search for it in the Free Press), Donald Rumseld being quoting as saying, "if you criticize the United States or President Bush, you're being unpatriotic."


Dusk, you dreamed that. He never said it, so dont bother trying to find it. A paraphrased version of that was stated by HRC and Teddy, but no republican law maker ever made that statement,nor ever would.
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think CrispE is righton here. I prefer foreign cars. Not because I'm anti-American. I prefer them because experience has told me they're more reliable (I've owned several of each). Oh... and my wife owns a service shop and every mechanic working for her either prefers "vintage" American cars, or newer foreign cars.

I also don't know why believing "…the average American is "stupid" or "a sheep" or "brain washed"" makes me anti-American. It just makes me anti-idiot. Have you dealt with the general public lately? The professionals I deal with (I'm a software developer); my clients, etc are all examples of people who are on the up and up. Well… most of them. ;O)

The general public; the glazed eyed people at Wal-Mart, the people grazing at the mall on Friday nights, the people wasting tons of money in slot machines at the local casino while wearing shoes with holes, and the person doing 50 mph in the far left lane on the highway… they… are idiots. The people who tell me they’re voting for Bush because “he’s the President” or “their pastor told them too”... they are sheep. The people who won’t even question the fact our current President won because of a voting error in a state where his relative is the Governor… are brain washed. I’m not claiming its fact, only that people won’t even entertain the idea and call it conspiracy theory.

BTW... I also think the general public of most other countries are stupid, sheep, and brain washed as well. It's not localized to the American public.

All other points are pretty right on the money.

I very much enjoy reading your posts, and the torrent of responses they elicit. I don’t always agree, but love that you voice such well though out opinions… Keep up the good work!
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
the fact our current President won because of a voting error in a state where his relative is the Governor… are brain washed. I’m not claiming it's fact


Dude, you've gotta make up your mind. Is it "fact" or not?
(Personally I'm sick of hearing about it, all the background I've seen on it indicates that the correct results were obtained in the end, and I wish people would let it drop. Yes, I did read a lot about it, spun from either direction.)
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
A slightly different take on the topic:

I see the concept of a national conscience being relevant here. You know, "I'm upset because my nation is responsible for [grave injustice]" Those things that weigh on such a conscience might be debatable at times, but that isn't really the point. Neither is it worthwhile philosophizing too much ( I didn't clean my plate at lunch - while millions starve )

What can be done about it, and who cares enough to do something?

Who thinks that America needs to be taken down a notch, humbled, brought down? What if they're American citizens?

I really think it would be a mistake to subscribe to this idea.
I also really think that the loudest of America's critics in the world want us to elect a leader who might entertain such an idea.
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top

And its no small irony that some of the most PRO american people ive ever met are first generation immigrants, who know first hand what its like to live under regimes where all of the above mentioned attitudes are perfectly justified because they are based in fact.


Good point, Hell I work with tons of them, some of them Iraqi's or Kurds. None of these people give a rat's ass about people who mail pictures of themselves holding "i'm so sorry" signs to Iraq. They think these people are retarded as they obviously have no clue what life under Saddam (or in other nations like his Iraq) was all about. Pain and terror. Ask them if America works for the greater good, not some jackhole college student who thinks the world should be like a what he see's on a BBC sitcom.