Hey there, KFC,

Yes, Rabbi Hillel said the same thing, as did the Torah itself, yet God still gave you very specific commandments.  Following the spirit of the law sounds wonderful until that spirit has to be applied in real, earthly terms. Kind of like your struggle with gays.

For those who struggle with the whole Torah and all 613 commandments, I refer you to parsha kodoshim a weekly Torah portion that addresses how to live a holy life according to God.

 http://www.myjewishlearning.com/texts/Weekly_Torah_Commentary/kedoshim_summary.htm

 

 

"natural reason compels us to believe that there is only one true God --the God the Jewish people worshipped--there can only be one true religon of God."

There is only one I AM, but the name used to refer to THE I AM doesn't matter. It doesn't change THE I AM, in that it neither adds or subtracts to THE I AM.

I agree there is only one true religion of God, and that is the leaving behind of self importance, however it is not the exclusive property of any one individual nation of peoples. Abraham and Moses both understood that self importance was what stood between human beings and god, and the ritural of sacrifice was designed to constantly remind their peoples of it. It was the self importance of the hebrew nation that led them into bondage in Egypt to begin with. They left Israel because they were worried about their own survival ei: famine. In Egypt their survival would be insured (not by god but by another man) since food had been stored and saved against the famine through the power given to Joseph by god that allowed him to interpret the dreams of pharoh. Joseph was able to receive this ability because he had very little self importance. He'd been sold into slavery by his brothers, and slaves due the very nature of their bondage have very little self importance. Their very life is literally held in the hands of another, and their time is consumed with doing the bidding and the work of their masters, which if not paid close attention to in it's completion could mean the forfeit of ones life. There is little room left for thoughts of self in those circumstances.

When Moses came to release them from their bondage they were given strict rules to follow so that the angel of death would pass them over. The performing of the tasks done in preparation of the event (the selecting of the lamb without blemish, the preparation of it, as well as the forbidding of eating anything boiled or raw, since boiling or eating something raw requires less attention than the roasting of it, (roasting over a fire requires careful watching so that the food being prepared does not burn rendering it unpalatable), the unleavened bread and wild lettuce (bitter herbs) were not of the normal eating habits of the hebrew nation, and in that they were not as enjoyable and by their very nature commanded the attention of those doing the consuming. (Habit - a task that one is capable of performing that does not require or command ones full attention to perform or complete making it comfortable and enjoyable.) Those demands by god required the complete attention of those doing the selecting and preparing since it was not the norm or habit they knew. The hasty eating of the meal, the "girding of the rein", the keeping on of the shoes, the holding of staves as well as the disposal of the uneaten meal all required complete attention as well not to mention being neither comfortable or pleasurable, since they also were not what one normally did. If one is concentrating and giving full attention to the task at hand one is not dwelling within ones own thoughts and that silences the constant dialog of the mind. That is the true purpose of any ritual. To take ones thoughts out of oneself and silence the dialog. It is the constant dialog of the mind that summons the angel of death, and allows it to find us. The reason why the angel of death passed over the Israelites and not the Egyptians. It is not however the exclusive property of the hebrew nation. There have been many peoples who have performed rituals for the same reason.

That was the true purpose behind the way that Jesus celebrated the passover as he did with his disciples. In order to break their normal "habits"(since the passover had, now over the due course of time and the repeated performance of it, become yet another habit), to make them uncomfortable, (they would have naturally been uncomfortable with it since they would have been breaking the jewish law regarding the passover celebration), which would there by command their complete attention, instead allowing them to dwell within their own thoughts. This allowed Jesus to have their complete attention.

Christians do not live up to the principles of god, as evidenced by those things that I cited that christians did and still do, (those I spoke of were professed christians you know) and that is specifically why things were and are the way they are. Trying to blame it on and lay it at the feet of something else such as paganism, etc. is no excuse for ones own actions. It is called not taking responsiblity or scape goating.

Can someone state clearly what these are?

Probably not today Sodaiho, it's sunday, and most good christians are in church confessing to and recanting their sins which entitles them to a clean slate so that they can turn around on monday and commit the same transgressions all over again. They are of the mistaken notion that when Jesus told his apostles to forgive no matter how many times they were asked for forgiveness for the same trespasses, it meant that God will also forgive them endlessly. Jesus told them this so that they would not sin themselves by holding a grudge or hate in their hearts for the transgressor. God does not hate and forgives the truly penitent, but God does not forgive endlessly for the same sin simply because it's requested.

I am still waiting for a list of Christian principles that are

a) different from secular principles

and

different from Islamic fundamentalist principles.


Those must be the principles that would save America, according to Christian fundamentalists.

So far I have found out that the "Christian" principle of honesty does not require a "Christian" to be honest, for example when he or she talks about the Talmud.


My taxi driver in Berlin just a few hours ago was a Turkish Alevi (NOT to be confused with the Syrian Alavites) who didn't like America much but did like Israel (and Turkey).

I learned a bit about Alevis from him. Very interesting!

Leauki,  Good to see you back.  I'm wondering the same thing about such a list of principles.  We'll see.

Sodaiho,

Likewise. Unfortunately, while I own a flat in Berlin, it doesn't have Internet access. (And I don't visit friends to use their Internet connection.)

So I spent some time reading books, about Islam this time. I will write about that later. There is still more to do.


But about "Christianity" I have three questions, maybe for our "Christians" to answer:

1. Do "Christian" principles, as you understand them, encourage or discourage you from studying materials you are dismissing as wrong?

2. Are there any "Christian" principles that are not also secular and/or Islamic principles and are those the principles you think America should follow?

3. Have there been any situations in your life where you acted DIFFERENTLY than others would have acted BECAUSE of your "Christian" beliefs? (And I don't mean celebrating Christmas instead of Hannukah.)

love, and I'm not talking emotional love, I'm talking sacrificial love; to be other minded instead of self-minded.

Leauki-answers to your questions.

1. Neither. We are free to read or not read other material. There's no law written to say we can't. But like I've said before, why read a counterfeit when we have the real thing accessible to us to read? So I don't spend alot of time reading counterfeit material, but I do when or if it helps another so I can show them where we differ by showing them the originial.

2. I don't understand your question. No Christian principles are secular. They run counter to secularism.

3. Yes. We are called to be "peculiar people." We are to be "set apart" from the rest of the world. We are called to be different.



It is wonderful and freeing. Love covers it all Sodaiho. I'm a fundamentalist Christian. I don't hold to a set of creeds, lists, laws or what have you to be a Christian. The only law I'm bound to is the law of love.

I watched a movie last night that says and shows it all. I think you and Leauki should go rent it. It's called "The Final Inquiry." I think it's a new release. Anyhow I thought it was very interesting. I atually saw you in the movie Sodaiho. I even said it out loud when I saw him. I'd like you to see this and tell me if you can see yourselve in it.

I don't have a struggle with the "gays." I would love and help them like I would any other. I'm just not going to help them legislate sin in the form of homosexual marriage. It's not helping them or society at all in the short or long run.

Jewish and Islamic principles, as I understand them, actively encourage believers to seek knowledge and not pass judgment on what one hasn't read or understood.

That seems to be a different between the religions, I suppose.




So if secular humanism has a principle like "love thy neighbour" that principle becomes automatically non-Christian?

I don't understand your answer. Surely you must be able to list one or two principles that are Christian but not secular?




Yes, what what have you actually DONE in which that difference manifests?

Oh many things. There are many times when I'm with non Christian friends and relatives and are tempted to "cheat" here and there and I chose to do the right thing. When my kids were little it was "tell them your child is 12 (when he was 13) and he'll get the cheaper price. That sort of thing.

Or if I'm undercharged at the register I bring it back and pay full price. I did that last week when I was charged for one pillow but I bought two. I went back a week later to pay for it. I've been told at one store that they never had anyone come back like that before.

We always put down our full income on our taxes when we know many out there do not. Even when we get cash on the side for a job done here and there.

When I'm with a crowd of relatives (not Christian) and they use offensive language and drink heavily we stick out because we do neither. We try not to gossip or speak evil of another to the point it's noticeable.

Is that what you're speaking of Leauki?



Secular people can love their neighbor...no question. There are many secular wonderful caring people out there. The diff is there love is man centered not God centered. There is no greater love than agape love which comes from God. There is a love caleed phileo love which is brotherly love or a friendship type of love but that's not as strong as the kind of love that comes from God.

How many show love towards their enemies? It's wonderful and good to show love to your neighbor if you have a good relationship with them or if there is no reason not to love them. But what if there were reasons to hate them, but you love them instead? That's the type of love I'm speaking of. Christ on the cross is an example. As they crucified him, casts lots for his clothes and mocked him, he looked down on them and forgave them with love. Only that type of love comes from God.

Remember the Amish people a couple of years ago showing the world this type of love? The world was astonished. How could they show love and forgivness when their children had been murdered by complete strangers?

The world doesn't get it. To the world it's very peculiar to love and forgive your enemy but every once in a while we hear of this type of love and it warms the heart. It's God focused not man focused.

"love, and I'm not talking emotional love, I'm talking sacrificial love; to be other minded instead of self-minded."

Could this "other minded" be taken to mean not being "self important"? Probably not I'm thinking.

don't have a struggle with the "gays." I would love and help them like I would any other. I'm just not going to help them legislate sin in the form of homosexual marriage. It's not helping them or society at all in the short or long run.


We legislate "sin" all the time, and you do help with that, we all do, other than your objection to their "particular" sin, the difference is?

Their sins, whatever they may be are between them and god and their relationship with God doesn't include you or anyone else. Quite obviously they don't need your permission or your help to sin, because they do it all the time according to you. They just want equal status and protection under the law of the Unitied States, (which by the way according to democratic principles they are entitled to), just as any other citizen of this country does, which is not either the giving of your permission or aid in sinning. It neither harms or helps society in either the short or long run because it only affects them. Let gays worry about their own sins, it is your business to worry about yours. "Why do you worry about the speck in your brothers eye, when you don't worry about the beam in your own?" Their sins whatever they may be are for god to judge not you, and that judgement quite frankly is none of your business nor anyone elses for that matter. No where in the 10 commandments does it say that it is a sin, although it does in the Talmud, but you are not a follower of the Jewish faith are you? Sounds like you cherry pick from the Talmud and take only those "laws" that you wish to abide by, since you ignore the rest of them.

You are "peculiar people" and to be set apart because you are "different". Your difference is all in your head literally, you are no different than any other, no more loved by god than any other, but somehow you think that you are "unique" and "special". Well welcome to the club of human kind, most all of us think that we are unique and special in one way or another. The wealthy think that they are more special than the middle class who think that they are more special than the poor. The hebrew nation thinks that they are more special than all the other religions, and also the christians think the same, right along with the Muslim faith. Democratic people think that their form of government is more special and right than non-democratic peoples. One race thinks that they are better and more special than another. And on and on it goes............

I know many atheists and Jews who don't cheat and wouldn't have cheated in that situation either.

What is so specifically "Christian" about not cheating?

It looks to me like you are looking to make something that I consider completely normal an achievement made possible by Christian values. Is honesty something you only practice because of your Christianity? If so, that is certainly a positive aspect of Christianity, but it throws a bad light on Christians!

Nevertheless, that particular principle is not a non-secular, non-Islamic, Christian value. Instead it is a value all three ideologies have in common.

Perhaps you didn't understand my question?

Again, I find that completely normal. I am surprised that they would say that they never had anyone come back like that before!

In fact, in these situations I always get very angry because it means I have to walk back to the store. It's like finding a wallet with a name in it.

At what point would a belief in G-d even come into it? Atheists act like that without believing in G-d. Perhaps they do it because they believe that since there is no god they themselves have to put things right?

If you are honest because of your Christianity, does that mean you are honest because you fear punishment if you are not?

I know Jews who keep kosher because they fear G-d's punishment if they don't. But fear of punishment is not why a Jew should keep kosher and I don't think G-d would punish a Jew for not keeping kosher.

 

 

Love in the form of self sacrifice is a common human value.  We call it altruism. The Greater Good, the Universe, the Absolute, Infinite, Adonai, Allah, Jesus, all are just names various human beings have for God.  This God is the same regardless of what or how He is called.

 

This message of love is a wonderful principle, applied to God in Judaism, for example, the Shema and the V'ahav'ta (Deuteronomy 6:4-9) pretty much have us go from the inside out, recognizing God's oneness to loving the Lord with all your heart and might, to teaching His teachings to all.

In Zen Buddhism, the practice is to learn to set aside self for others in everything we do. Its a complete, total, and unconditional love.

 

Frankly, I am disappointed in these answers.  I was hoping for a clear set of Christian specific principles.  I hear this phrase alot, but have no real idea what such principles are. I hear about Christian charity, for instance.  I do not know how Christian charity is any different from dana in Zen Buddhism. The Diamond Sutra teaches us that charity should be offered without any reference to self, among other principles. 

 

Tell me more.

 

Yes, I remember and it was impressive.

However, they showed love and forgiveness to the family of the killer, not the killer himself, if I recall correctly.

Also, just a year ago or so there was a case (not the first either) of an Arab Palestinian man donating his dead child's organs to Israeli hospitals even though his child was killed by Israeli security forces. I believe he was a Muslim. The organs donated saved the lives of a bedouin girl, a Druze child, and a Jewish boy (from an orthodox family, if I recall correctly).

The kid was not murdered and nobody* claimed he was. But nevertheless the father must have seen Israel as an enemy at that point.

Similar incidents, without much press coverrage, happen in the other direction (but more often).

It seems you have found another "Christian" value that is also a Muslim (and Jewish) value, and probably a secular value too.

 

*I am sure a few terrorist organisations did claim that the Israeli simply murdered the child in cold blood, but the father in question did not think so, as far as I know.

 

Gee KFC, from what I read from the posts of the others here, christians are indeed no different than the others that practice different religions. I too am interested in how you would explain this. Care to elaborate further?

I agree but I was answering what set me apart...what made me peculiar with those around me who are secular. And it wasn't with the Jews but with the secular. If you don't have someone to answer to, you are free to do what you want and when you want for your own motives. The Atheist may not cheat for other reasons. But they would be humanistic in nature. The end result may be the same but the motives are entirely different. That would set a Christian apart from an Atheist. It's not for others or ourselves we do these things, but for God who is watching us with love.



I never said it was specifically "Christian" but a Christian worth his salt won't because of his love and obedience to God.



Why a bad light? Before I was a Christian I wouldn't have been so apt to question these things looking towards my own benefit first. My life has definitely changed because of my relationship with God.



There are all kinds of reasons that motivate people to act like they do. Only God can judge the heart. Some have right motives and others do so for their own benefit. Maybe a reward? Maybe a pat on the back? Maybe to look better in someone's eyes? Maybe just to feel better about themselves? When a Christian does such things they too can do things out of wrong motives. They don't have a market on pure motives. Again a Christian worth his salt, is doing right things from a pure motive and that is to please no one but God. I am not out to please men (can't you tell?) but to please God. Many times we want to remain anonymous just for that reason so we don't do things out of wrong motives.



no. I do what I do out of love and respect for the God who created me. I do so to please him and hopefully in the end, if applicable, bring another to Christ. I don't even belive God would be made at me when I mess up in this regard. I belive he grieves and is sad I chose to follow another path instead of the one he laid out for me.



People express love and expect love but they are not love by nature. The love of people changes and is limited. Love is something that people have, but not something they are. If love is an absolute then there must be some unchanging unlimited love somewhere that is the source of all other love. Humans are not absolute so where does love come from?

Scripture says "God is love." God, by nature is love. The natue of God is the source of all love and is reflected in the men that He has made in his image.

A characteristic of love according to scripture is love is desiring and dong the good of the other. To love is to not seek our own but seeking to do good for another. Another characteristic of love is that love gives with no demand for return. Love that gets but doesn't give is egoistic. Love that gives but expects a reuturn is mutualistic and love that gives without expcting anything is altruistic.

The Greeks use "Agape", "eros", and "philia." Eros love is self seeking by definition. It's only concern is with its own desires. Philia is brotherly love in which there is a give and take kind of relationship. Yes there is sacrifice but the returns make it worthwhile. Agape is completely unconditional. I believe this is a very rare form of love out there and one that many strong Christians emulate. It gives and gives and gives but never demands anything. Jesus is our example and the kind we should imitate.

Then there is tough love. The only loving thing to do for someone who needs correction is to corect him. God's love is tough enough to confront us without violating our freedom. So if I do this say in the case of the gays...it's out of tough love, not hatred.

Love is not mere emotion but a commitment to do what is good for another even when love has to be tough I gave out alot of tough love when my chilren were growing up. Sad to say, I'm seeing less and less of this type of love in today's culture.

"Atheist may not cheat for other reasons. But they would be humanistic in nature. The end result may be the same but the motives are entirely different."

And who are you to judge what reason or the motives that they do this for? Can you see into their hearts? You just said "Only god can judge the heart". You are contradicting yourself here.


"The end result may be the same but the motives are entirely different. That would set a Christian apart from an Atheist. It's not for others or ourselves we do these things, but for God who is watching us with love."

Then why do you presume to think that allowing gay marriage is not good for society? Society is not of god, but of man. And quite a few atheists also believe that homosexuality is wrong. Seems to me your motives are not entirely different in this aspect. You also contradict yourself here as well.

"Love is not mere emotion"

Love is emotion since it is a feeling, the love of god is no different in feeling than the love of anything else.

"Then there is tough love. The only loving thing to do for someone who needs correction is to corect him."

As I said before "why do you see the speck in your brothers eye, when you do not see the beam in your own"?

I don't expect you KFC to answer these questions, or even acknowledge them. People confronted with the truth never do, they do one of two things. They either ignore them, or they turn to another for the answer. Their answer is usually to ignore them. Self importance when confronted with itself, always turns to anothers self importance to reassure them that self importance is the way to go.

Lula posts:

Absolutely true God doesn't change His mind. God made several covenants (contracts so to speak) with the Hebrew people...the Abrahamic Covenant Gen.12-22, the Mosaic Covenant Ex.20, and the Davidic covenant 2Chronicles 21:7, and others. God hasn't changed His mind on any of them.

In the above, I mean the Mosaic covenant made at Sinai...it was a bilateral contract, in the sense that the reward God promised would go to the elect IF they were faithful to His Commands and prophecies. The Mosaic covenant had conditions laid out by God

"If you will hear My voice and keep MY covenant, you shall be My peculiar possession above all people...and you shall be to Me a priestly kingdom and a holy nation." Exodus 19.

It's the people of Israel who did not hold up their part of the covenant..so it's not about God changing His mind.

At the time of Christ's death on the Cross, the Temple veil was rent, the priestly kingdom was no more....the Mosaic sacrifices, laws, rituals, and ceremonies are no longer salvific. The Mosaic Covenant was perfectly fulfilled by Christ who established the New Covenant which as KFC said,



Moses gave the ancient Israelites the Torah and Christ gave the world, Jews included, the Gospel. While Jews may hold on to and try to vigilantly follow those 613 commandments, they are not salvific.

The Ten Commandments though are an expression of the natural law which God has written on our heart and which every man knows if he listens to the voice of reason and conscience. That's why they apply to all mankind for all times. God gave them to us out of love and for our good, for our temporal welfare and for our eternal salvation. Christ is God and God is Love. Out of love of God and for one another..out of Christ and His teachings came the principles of Christianity.

We've seen and talked and written about how the world fares when we disobey God's commandments. What would life be like if murder, robbery, and defamation of character were not forbidden? No body would be sure of either life or property. There would be an end to all order and obedience in family life, evil and lawlessness would reign triumphantly. There would be no civilization left.

The Ten COmmandments were given for our good, that peace and order might reign among men, in family, in society, in church and state, that we might attain everlasting happiness. For this reason for he who doesn't observe them is not only an enemy to God, but an enemy to man and to his own self.

The Old Covenant was made through Moses, the New through Jesus Christ. The Old made through one nation, the New with all mankind. The Old was made to last a limited time, the New will last until the end of time. The Old was sealed with the blood of victims, the New with the Blood of God made Man. IN the OLd, severe laws were made, but the power of observing them was not given. The New Covenant has not only its own holy laws, but abundant grace is given by which to observe them.

The Ten Commandments and the other laws of the Old COvenant were a preparation for Jesus Christ. The Jews could not perfectly observe the law, but we can now, by God's grace keep all the commandments, if we only truly desire to do so and use the means of grace given to us.

God gave the Ten Commandments after the departure from Egypt. In commemoration of these the Jews laways kept the Feast of Pentecost 50 days after the Pasch. The Christian Pentecost is also 50 days after Easter, becasue on that day, God, the Holy Ghost, descended from Heaven, and inscribed the law of love on the faithful.

The First day of Pentecost of the Old COvenant is a type of the 1st day in the New. ON the former, the mountain shook, on the latter, in the house where the APostles were, the mighty wind in tondues of fire appeared. There in the Old, God came down to give the Commandments and here, God came down to fill the hearts of the faithful with love of the Commandments. There are no more barriers to separate man from God..they were removed by Jesus Christ, we dare approach Him and receive Him into our hearts and unite ourselves with Him in the closest manner.

"The Ten COmmandments were given for our good, that peace and order might reign among men, in family, in society, in church and state, that we might attain everlasting happiness."

The ten commandments were not given to us so that peace and order might reign among men, in family, society, or church and state. They were given to us so that we might put "self" aside and become yet one step closer to god. God doesn't give a whiff about either, family, society, or church and state. Being closer to god will is the only thing that will help us attain everlasting happiness. It will never be found here on "earth".

"The Ten Commandments and the other laws of the Old COvenant were a preparation for Jesus Christ. The Jews could not perfectly observe the law, but we can now, by God's grace keep all the commandments, if we only truly desire to do so and use the means of grace given to us"


They were not a preparation for Jesus Christ, but for the I stated reasons stated above. And hate to once more burst your bubble, but belief in Jesus Christ and his coming doesn't make christians any better at keeping the the law or observing it. Grace is never just given, it must be earned through ones own efforts.

 

Hello KFC, 

I am following your thoughts on moral behavior.  Leuki had a point though which raised the purity of motive as an issue. If we do good for the sake of God this is not a pure motive.  Good should be done for itself.  In the process of being good we are honoring our creator. 

 

Your discussion to this point is either fear based or praise based.  In either case it is based on something apart from itself.  Are Christian principles then fear or praise based? 

 

I would prefer to understand doing good as becoming goodness itself. We become the manifestation of good with no object, benefit, or consequence in mind at all. You say human beings are not love.  I don't agree.  I believe we are love at our core. Our essential nature is God. 

But all of this begs the question, are there a set of Christian principles? If so, can they be articulated and differentiated from other moral/ethical/spiritual principles?

Be well.

 

Lula posts:

LEAUKI POSTS:


I'll let you be the judge as to how Christian principles are different from secular or Islamic fundamentalist ones, Leauki.

As we have already said, Christian principles are based upon love of God for His sake with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength and love of our fellow neighbor (all persons without exception) as ourselves. Christian principles are rules of life to live. There are many.

By the rule of life taught by Christ, we are to hate sin so as to be resolved never to commit willful sin.

The Christian principles would be practicing the seven virtues that run directly against the 7 capital sins:

Pride------------Humility
Covetnousness-------Generousness
Lust-----Chastity
Anger---Meekness
Gluttony---------------Temperance
Envy-------Brotherly love
Sloth-----------------------------------Diligence

We love one another including our enemies, by forgiving them from our hearts, by wishing and hoping for everyone's goodness and praying for one another and by never allowing any thought word or action to the injury of others.

The maxims of Christianity are quite different from the maxims of the world.

In the Sermon of the Mount and especially in the Beatitudes, our Lord proclaimed the ruling maxims of His kingdom.

SODAIHO POSTS:

To the Christian mind, you've got it backwards. God is All-Goodness; Infinite Goodness. Every good becomes second tier if it's not done for the sake of God.

Good is defined by God's Goodness and all flows from there.

Doing Good for itself is man's way of thinking which is may or may not be according to God's Goodness.

"To the Christian mind, you've got it backwards. God is All-Goodness; Infinite Goodness. Every good becomes second tier if it's not done for the sake of God."

Why? Who said so?


Doing Good for itself is man's way of thinking which is may or may not be according to God's Goodness."

And so it is when it's done for the reasons that you state you do it for.

I personally am in agreement with Sodaiho. Nothing should be done for reasons of the self, that includes because one thinks that it pleases God. Pleasing god is always done for the reason of self, because even in wanting to do such one is seeking "favor in his eyes". That's "self motive."

Nightshades, I'm sorry but I can't really discuss anymore with you  I find you very hard to speak with.  It's like you're out to nitpick everything I say instead of listening to what I say.  I don't have that feeling with Sodaiho.  Even tho we disagree I feel he's at least listening. 

Think about what I just said and your reply.  We are talking about a Christian and an Atheist.  An Atheist is NOT going to have the same motive as a Christian who is doing out of love for his/her God.  Since the Atheist doesn't believe in God, they can't both be doing it with the same movtive now can they?  The Christian's motive should be to please God.  Does the Atheist say that? 

You'll have to discuss these things with someone else.  I think Sodaiho would agree that I never ignore an issue.  I am as honest as I know how to be and try to give answers as best as I can. As Sodaiho says...be well.

Good writing Lula.  You did well. 

After reading and discussing this issue  here on Sodaiho's blog I find Jesus was right after all when he said this in reply to a the dead rich man  who requested a messenger  be sent t his brothers to warn them about the after life:

"He said to him, if they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."  Luke 16

I'd like again to request you guys watch "The Final Inquiry."  I think you would find it most interesting given our topic here.