Unlinking PQ with pop cap

from GalCiv2 Forums

I think it might be interesting if they did not link PQ with pop cap for two reasons off the top of my head.

1) Lets say you have 2 planets both are 10QP and one is a desert planet and one is a temperate planet. The desert planet has 10 usuable tile because of all the flast space BUT no one want to live there because it a desert. So for that world have the cap 10 onstead of 16. What taxpayer wants to pay tax to live in a desert. The temperate planet has 10 usuable tiles but would have a pop cap of 16. Hey, it’s a nice place to live.

2) It would make ‘reading’ what other races have in pop harder to do. If I see a race that has 2 planets of 4PQ I KNOW they have 16 (8 and 8) total pop (not including farms). Lets say I have 3 planets of 4PQ, I then know I can out ‘attrition’ them if you will because I will have 8 billion more pop to work with. It would be much harder to get a read on an opponent if there was a range for QP          populations

8,336 views 16 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Um, no.

The maximum population of a planet is dictated by playstyle, how many happiness buildings you're willing to build, and how many happiness buildings you can build. If you have 3 PQ4 planets and they have 2 PQ4 planets, then you win because you have more tiles to work with, not because of population.

Ultimately, tiles are the foundation resource that all other game resources come from.
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Um, no.

The maximum population of a planet is dictated by playstyle, how many happiness buildings you're willing to build, and how many happiness buildings you can build. If you have 3 PQ4 planets and they have 2 PQ4 planets, then you win because you have more tiles to work with, not because of population.

Ultimately, tiles are the foundation resource that all other game resources come from.
End of quote


Um, yes kinda. I completely understand about the tiles, no brainer there. BUT, you do get certain things from more pop. Such as TAX INCOME!!!!! INFLUENCE!!!! Those are based off of population.
But that really wasn't the point of the post. The point was why do all 4PQ planets have an INITIAL 8.00 pop cap (do not figure in Farms, racial bonuses, etc). I'm just say all planets are different like cities in the U.S. Take Vegas for instance. At any given time there are millions of people there BUT the percentage of people who actually LIVE there is a fraction of that population. That goes back to my desert planet reference.
Offworld Trading Company
Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Um, no.The maximum population of a planet is dictated by playstyle, how many happiness buildings you're willing to build, and how many happiness buildings you can build. If you have 3 PQ4 planets and they have 2 PQ4 planets, then you win because you have more tiles to work with, not because of population.Ultimately, tiles are the foundation resource that all other game resources come from.Um, yes kinda. I completely understand about the tiles, no brainer there. BUT, you do get certain things from more pop. Such as TAX INCOME!!!!! INFLUENCE!!!! Those are based off of population.But that really wasn't the point of the post. The point was why do all 4PQ planets have an INITIAL 8.00 pop cap (do not figure in Farms, racial bonuses, etc). I'm just say all planets are different like cities in the U.S. Take Vegas for instance. At any given time there are millions of people there BUT the percentage of people who actually LIVE there is a fraction of that population. That goes back to my desert planet reference.
End of quote


You'd be surprized about Vegas. It's one of the fastest growing populations in the US - all of them permanent residents. Outside of the Strip, very few people in Vegas are tourists.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The point was why do all 4PQ planets have an INITIAL 8.00 pop cap (do not figure in Farms, racial bonuses, etc).
End of quote


Because the galaxies are random enough without needlessly handicapping a player just because they got a bad string of planets. Tiles are an exceedingly precious resource; I'd hate to have to waste one just because the planet rolled low during galaxy creation.

Basically, all you're doing is turning a PQ10 planet into a PQ9 with a Farm.
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
So for that world have the cap 10 onstead of 16. What taxpayer wants to pay tax to live in a desert. The temperate planet has 10 usuable tiles but would have a pop cap of 16. Hey, it’s a nice place to live.
End of quote


The asthetic logic is fine, wouldnt argue with that. The practical game mechanics to implement it are another thing. Its a balanced game, whenever a "widget" is added into the overall Pot, the game has to be rebalanced to take into account its effects, its not just a question of programming the enhancement in question, its also working on what imbalance that will cause.

It doesnt take much to unbalance the game. For example, edit the xml file for Planet Earth as a capital to change it to a PQ26, and Mars to a PQ18, doesnt sound much, but wow, 2 game years later and your nigh on invincible, whatever the scenario. Sounds neat, but in the long run that gets boring. Example only - cant directly compare OP with that, clearly. However, the effects of any change in the game balance is always far reaching, and nearly always more than expected, and usually in far more ways than anticipated.

Therefore there has to be real Substantial benefit to the game, not just nice to have, before they even consider changes that affect game balance, due to the time and effort needed to include it.

Regards
Zy
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The asthetic logic is fine, wouldnt argue with that. The practical game mechanics to implement it are another thing. Its a balanced game, whenever a "widget" is added into the overall Pot, the game has to be rebalanced to take into account its effects, its not just a question of programming the enhancement in question, its also working on what imbalance that will cause.

It doesnt take much to unbalance the game. For example, edit the xml file for Planet Earth as a capital to change it to a PQ26, and Mars to a PQ18, doesnt sound much, but wow, 2 game years later and your nigh on invincible, whatever the scenario. Sounds neat, but in the long run that gets boring. Example only - cant directly compare OP with that, clearly. However, the effects of any change in the game balance is always far reaching, and nearly always more than expected, and usually in far more ways than anticipated.

Therefore there has to be real Substantial benefit to the game, not just nice to have, before they even consider changes that affect game balance, due to the time and effort needed to include it.

Regards
Zy
End of quote


Thank you for a reply that wasn't just a "your an idiot" response. I've never played any GalCiv games until like 3 week ago.
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Thank you for a reply that wasn't just a "your an idiot" response. I've never played any GalCiv games until like 3 week ago.
End of quote


Considering the neurotic minefields that are the average Forum on the Web, I hear where you are coming from, and its therefore understandable many take a defensive stance when coming on this forum for the first time(s). The forum is firmly "anti-moron", and those that try that die a horrible "Cyber-Death" :LOL: - particularly if they just flamed a new user for asking basic questions, thats a big no-no.....

Happens every now and then of course - we all get miffed from time to time, we are not perfect robots, we are humans, warts 'n all - its life, but 99% of the time, 99% of posts are meant in a genuine fashion by 99% of the people here.

Relax an enjoy GalCiv - great Game, great Forum, great People ;)

Regards
Zy
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Relax an enjoy GalCiv - great Game, great Forum, great People
End of quote


That it is. I don't know if I should thank the poeple at Stardock or give them the finger for keeping me up all night playing this game. Is there any kind of 12 step program for this game?
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Is there any kind of 12 step program for this game?
End of quote


Frankly - no. Its a kind of voyage of discovery (by design) :LOL:

A small incident to illustrate. After you get the terraforming techs, the tiles become available. One user asked "can you change it so that after the last terraforming tech we can click on a planet, see what we are going to get and plan?" The reply I thought was a clever one, and encapsulates their whole approach to the game.

"We debated that one, but we thought it better to give you guys a surprise when you get there". So its turned out, any time you click on a PQ4 after getting the terraforming techs it kind of makes your day to see a PQ16 sitting there in all its glory. A small thing for sure, but there's many like that, which is what makes it so engaging.

Most start by doing one or two games on beginner/cakewalk (the AI is seriously crippled at that level, cant do much except dribble at the mouth and say "Ga-Ga", but useful to get into the mechanics of the game without worrying about getting run over), then leap up the scale to one that they get vapourised on (thats usually somewhere between Normal and Painful), back off one or two levels, and take it from there. Keep a close eye on the forum, there are always lots of threads on the early game (which along with the economy is where the whole thing is won or lost).

A session on the smaller map sizes (tiny etc) is good to get orientated, but they are a little cramped, I always feel hemmed in, cant "get going". After a game on those, settle down on Medium map size for a while until you get into the game. After that, experiment, you'll find your own level as to which size you like (I love the Immense maps).

If I was forced to make one comment which makes or breaks players it is without doubt, the Economy (Zillions of threads on that in the Forum). Take time, time, and more time, learn it inside out, else you will forever be chasing your own tail, fire fighting, and you end up hating the game.

Regards
Zy
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Frankly - no. Its a kind of voyage of discovery (by design)
End of quote


Hehehehehehe.......did you think I meant a 'strategy guide' when I posted "12 step program"? I meant something like 'drug counsiling' by that post. I'm addicted to this game, dammit!!! I dont even want a manual or tech tree any more...just....more.....play. I need help.

Hey I now know by your post that they considered things like the topic of this thread

Q: "can you change it so that after the last terraforming tech we can click on a planet, see what we are going to get and plan?"

A: "We debated that one, but we thought it better to give you guys a surprise when you get there".

Maybe they debated a random pop cap.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I meant something like 'drug counsiling' by that post. I'm addicted to this game, dammit!!! I dont even want a manual or tech tree any more...just....more.....play. I need help.
End of quote


ROFL - Love it :LOL:

*Twitch*

Hey I now know by your post that they considered things like the topic of this thread
End of quote

I do honestly believe the Devs really do consider this a "labour of love", and they get a real kick out of doing this. Then you go out of here and hit the EA's of this world ...... yuck.

Still, onwards and upwards, Galactic Domination & Divorce awaits (my saving grace on the latter is she is always out riding horses, else I'd be Toast :LOL: )

Regards
Zy
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
It doesnt take much to unbalance the game. For example, edit the xml file for Planet Earth as a capital to change it to a PQ26, and Mars to a PQ18, doesnt sound much, but wow, 2 game years later and your nigh on invincible, whatever the scenario. Sounds neat, but in the long run that gets boring...
End of quote


Good point!
But, if you have my mod you know that i extensively use this factor to *alter* the gameplay dynamics for a reason or two;

1- If an AI must go out (by leasing a huge number of ships) during colony rush to grab as much as it can from anyone else, including you, then your tiles count would certainly be lower than if you were using a similar tactic.

2- My Homeworld systems are all stacked up to the rim **because** of #1 above. If the AIs are sort of restricted for at least the time it takes to crank out FIVE ships and only then, should go out to pick everything else nearby... it means YOU can also.

3- Defensively, a higher count of startup available tiles will always result in a tougher core network of planets. Which you would only get (anyway) by going far & wide.

Thus, a low number of tiles equals expansion aims while *much* higher amounts equals delay, solid local development and... lots of possibilities which you couldn't get otherwise. Far from boring, in my mind. ;)
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
For example, edit the xml file for Planet Earth as a capital to change it to a PQ26, and Mars to a PQ18
End of quote


Where are those files located? I think I'll jack with them a little.
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Where are those files located? I think I'll jack with them a little.
End of quote


Such evil thoughts :)

Look under the Twighlight subdirectires in the "Program files - Stardock" part of the disk. You'll see a multitude of them - all over the place. Do NOT mod an inplace one, if you want to mod one, make a copy, do the changes, then put the altered one into the "Mods" folder, and most important leaving the original in place. Then check mark "use mods" in the game options screen. The ones you are looking for are those with ".xml" extensions

Be very picky with yourself on this, else you will as sure as night follows day end up forgetting you changed one, and you'll wonder why something is happening. The main reason though, is when an update happens, original files in the main directories can be overwritten by the update destroying your modification, the MOD folders are left untouched. Always, always, always, keep separate copies of heavily modded files on a removeable storage media - lots of effort can go into these (small simple changes are easy) and its a bummer to loose hours/days/weeks of work when the disk crashes ......

On my PC the directory for the file dealing with the config of Homeworlds is:
C:\Program Files\Stardock\TotalGaming\GalCiv2\Twilight\Data\English\CustomPlanets.xml

The modded file (leave the original in place) goes into:
C:\Program Files\Stardock\TotalGaming\GalCiv2\Mods\Default\

Below "default" in the MODs directory are a series of sub directories for specific modding files, I dont bother as I have no need with my simple tinkering. The Modding community will lead you on the proper use of those.

Never touch the ones under the Metaverse Directory, they are exclusively used in the Metaverse games, meticulously checked for illegal modding, and will result in a cheat flag appearing in the respective Metaverse game record if they are changed in any way

There's a thriving MOD community here who do doubt will launch copious "welcome to the true way" statements hot on the heels of this reply. There's also a thriving MOD forum section here

I just tinker around the edges of modding for a bit of fun, those guys do it for the survival of their Souls :LOL:

Regards
Zy
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Far from boring, in my mind.
End of quote


Mod away I have no issue at all - its all good stuff. My only personal thing about it is I see little point modding a game that causes such a massive imbalance that the end result is you cant even avoid winning, let alone have the risk of losing (if thats an individual's desired outcome).

Its not the end of the world, thats the whole point of moddable games as you indicated, having a bit of fun achieving what an individual wants to achieve - all want different things. There's certainly no "wrong" or "right" thing to do, only in so far as it achieves an individual's desired outcome - whatever that outcome is.

"MOD On" as they say ... :LOL:

Regards
Zy
Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
My only personal thing about it is I see little point modding a game that causes such a massive imbalance that the end result is you cant even avoid winning, let alone have the risk of losing (if thats an individual's desired outcome).
End of quote



Yep... and, that's exactly what i meant.

The whole balance issues are something of a magic wand held either by true SD developers or tricky modders.
I won't go as far as to say my experience or knowledge of most features is beyond what (say) Frogboy and/or Carielf (+++, many more!) but, basicly, it is a matter of having or using the opportunity to "adapt" some factors to one's personal opinions or wishes.

To me, modding is much more of a supplemental asset given (entirely free, i might add) to an already balanced game; but, ya know, even as of today these devs DO continually re-think the wheel.
Just the predicted *Enhanced Espionage* system will probably completely reset the clocks on a few principles. Good, i say - since real replayability is way more than some provided context (by me or anyone else, btw).

I guess we're all caught up in the same strange but challenging loop -- Fun! :)