ummmmmm SC what are you trying to tell me here? 

Is this all about your facination with the dinos or polygamy?  Hmmmmm? 

Leauki posts #8

Really? this is news to me....monogamy was a Roman thing....could you explain further?

It certainly wasn't up until the time of Christ...I always thought monogamy was a "Christian" thing...

What do you mean by saying Christianity "as it moved away" from Judaism?



I thought polygamy was also practiced amongst the Yeminite and other Oriental Jews as well as the Sephardic Judaism.



Besides allowing each man four wives, according to the Qur'an, slave mistresses and concubines are also allowed.

Yes, St.Paul elaborates on this in his Epistle to the Ephesians. He compares the union between husband and wife to that of Christ and the Church.

Leauki posts:

KFC POSTS:

I disagree KFC. God did allow polygamy...He didn't sanction it per se, but allowed it.


After the Fall, original justice was destroyed and it was different for the entire world. There was now a rupture in the original communion between man and woman and the beautiful vocation of Marriage. God’s blessing to be fruitful, multiply and subdue the earth was burdened by the pain of childbirth and the toil of work. Marriage was under the regime of sin and the marital relationship became marred by concupiscence. Subjection became servitude and liable to all sorts of tensions, discord, conflicts and abuses. Women, especially among pagans, became degraded and cruelly treated.

God’s ancient design of faithful monogamy was not preserved and fell from its original honor and purity.
In His mercy, God hasn’t forsaken sinful man. Moral conscience concerning the unity and indissolubility of Marriage developed under the pedagogy of the Old Law. In the OT, the polygamy of the ancient Patriarchs and kings is not yet explicitly rejected. Nevertheless, the law given to Moses aims at protecting the wife from arbitrary domination by the husband, even though according to the Lord’s words, it still carries traces of man’s ‘hardness of heart’ which was the reason Moses permitted men to divorce their wives. St.Matt.19:8; Deut. 24:1. While the wife was subject to her husband, she was no mere chattel, as with the pagans.

You no doubt are thinking of the exclusive attachment that was prized in the OT by some of those who believed in God. Seeing God’s covenant with Israel in the image of exclusive and faithful married love (God wedded Israel in the desert),the prophets prepared the God's people for a deepened understanding of the unity and indissolubility of Marriage Hos.1-3; Is 54; 62; Jer. 2-3:31; Ezek.16;23; Mal. 2:13-17. The Books of Ruth and Tobit also witness to an elevated sense of Marriage and to the fidelity of spouses.

So yes, some of the ancient Patriarchs married several wives and that was part of the Old Law. Yet, Christ has clearly shown that polygamy is not in keeping with the primal nature of Matrimony as was "in the beginning." St. Matt.19:5-6; St.Mark 10:11-12.

Yes, you're right. God allowed it. I should have said God did not sanction it. He did not wish for men to have more than one wife. Many of the Patriach's did not. Adam did not. Seth did not. Noah did not. Moses did not. Lot did not. Abraham had Hagar at the insistence of his wife only. Lamach, a descendant of Cain was the first polygamist. Why follow his lead?



Yes, some did marry more than one wife, but that was NOT part of the Old law. Where do you see that it is?

Leauki posts:

KFC, God granted a dispensation to the patriarchs and tolerated polygamy. Check out Deut. 21:15-17. Abraham, Jacob and others practiced polygamy. The conditions of the times caused it to be tolerated. God permitted it to accelerate the race after the Flood and to increase the number of His chosen people in defencse of their mission against His enemies and on account of hardness of heart which also caused divorce to be tolerated.

Polygamy was permitted under the imperfect, the Mosaic Law. But with Christ came the perfect law which condemned both polygamy and divorce holding them to be contrary to the DIvine Law. When it comes to marriage there is a world of difference between the law of Moses and the Law of Christ. With Christ came the perfection of the Mosaic Law.
Those who obey God's will perfectly guide themselves by the principles set out in Genesis 2 and in the Book of Tobias. From this we can conclude that those who practice polygamy aren't practicing God's will perfectly.

Leauki posts: #17

The Mormons claim that Joseph Smith received the revelation on plural marriages in 1843. Obviously polygamy was an afterthought since the Book of Mormon as well as Doctrine and Covenants states that polygamy is an "abomination before the Lord". Anyhow, after 1853, polygamy was openly practiced and defended. Polygamy was traded in for statehood in 1896 when Utah became the 45th state in the union. To my knowledge, the Mormons have never renounced its belief in polygamy; it's become a "suspended" doctrine that could be reinstituted if the government would allow its practice.

zergimmi posts:

KFC posts:

Yes, it's true. Luther advocated bigamy in order to retain the influence of Philip for the Reformation.

Both Luther and Calvin were heretical in their teachings on polygamy. The Gospel absolutely forbids polygamy from both Christ and St. Paul....St.Matt.19:4-6; Rom. 7:2; 1Cor. 7:2; Eph. 5:23-31.

The Council of Trent condemned them becasue they held that "it is lawful for Christians to have several wives and that this is prohibited by no divine law." Luther, Melanchthon and Bucer wrote to Philip, Landgrave of Hesse, that the divine law gave a general sanction to polygamy, and acting on their advice, on March 4, 1540, he took a second wife, a 16 year old, Marghereta von Sale. The Reformers told him to keep it secret for fear of scandal, and becasue it clearly violated Imperial Law at the time. Bucer advised Philip, if any difficulties arise with the EMperor, to meet the problem with a downright lie. The Protestant historian, Kostlin, says of their disgraceful action, "Philip's bigamy is the greatest blot in Luther's life despite everything that can be alleged in explanation or excuse." Grisar, Luther, 4, 13-70.

Have you ever studied the Peasant's War? Their chief, John of Leyden had 3 wives.

Luther married an ex-nun. According to Luther's WOrks, Vol. 2, pg. 40, on April 5, 1523, the night before Easter, a guy named Leonard Koppe and a couple other guys abducted 12 nuns from the Cistercain cloister of Nimptsch in Silesia. They connived with Luther and brought them to Wittenberg. In a letter from Luther, he called Koppe a "blessed robber" and compared him to the Resurrectered Savior..Luther wrote, "As Christ, at easter had redeemed the world by His Resurrection, so Koppe by his bold deed on Easter night had redeemed these nuns." After 2 years, another apostate priest, Buganhagen, married Luther and one of the nuns, Katherine Bora, 16 years his junior.

KFC, I read about Martin Luther and his attitude to poligamy in some Luthern History books that belong to my Mother in Law, will check out which and let you know."In 1539, Luther became involved in controversy surrounding the bigamy of Philip 1, Landgrave of Hesse, who wanted to marry one of his wife's ladies-in-waiting. Luther ruled that polygamy was acceptable, noting that the Patriarchs of the Old Testament had had more than one wife, and so Philip entered into the second marriage in secret. Philip's sister made news of the marriage public a few weeks later, scandalizing Germany." This is anexcerpt from Wikipedia, which says pretty much what I have read elsewhere, however it is a bit light on detail. Another place worth looking is the online catholic encyclopedia, gives a lot more info on Philip and his involvement in the reformation.

It offers a more definative history of Luther than Wikipedia, although at points where I have crosschecked Wikipedia seems to have its facts right, just a bit concice, and it tend to labour more on the darker side of ML, especially his attitude to JEWS.

I disagree on this one Lula. 

At the creation of the first couple God had stated a strong case for monogamy as being the normative for marriage.  The first departure came with Lamech (descendant of Cain)  in Gen 4:19.  There are less than 20 examples of polygamy in the entire OT after that so it's not as numerous as you might think. 

No permission can be recited from scripture for any such institution or practice.  The Bible merely describes what some did; it never condones their polygamy nor does it make their practices normative for that time nor this. 

In the meantime the model of monogamy was held throughout the OT as the norm.  For example Proverbs 5:13-23 taught the same truth by means of one allegory of drinking water from one's own well.  Also a whole book of the OT was dedicating to celebrating the dedication of reserving oneself for only one other person of the opposite sex.

The bible doesn't stop to moralize on these instances of polygamy but does expect each reader to realize that what was taking place was contrary to the will and morality of God.

Scripture does not always pause to state the obvious.  There is no need for us to imagine what God thinks about such practices.  The misfortune and strife that comes into the domestic lives of these polygamists cannot be read as a sign of divine approval. 

Malachi 2;14 says that God is a witness to all weddings and contends for the "wife of our youth"......Jeremiah had to rebuke the men of his own time who were "neighing for another man's wife" (Jer 5:8).  Had polygamy been customarily approved his wording would have been in the plural, "wives."   Furthermore all they had to do was look aroung and acquire several new wives on their own instead of seeking those already taken!  Polygamy never was God's order for marriage in the OT. 

 

See this is an example.  Everything you cite about Luther is with contempt and hatred Lula.  These nuns came willingly and Luther secured for them all husbands and finally after so many years (you say two) he finally married the one who was very devoted to him.  Their marriage was a happy one with at least six children born to this couple. 

But notice......he only married one ex-nun. 

 

Thanks Zergimmi for the info

I would never go to a Catholic site on Luther.  Never.  The Catholics are totally biased when it comes to Luther.  Remember they hated him and wanted him killed.  He upset the apple cart. Over the years I've found many of their accusations based on emotion and heresey, not fact. 

I did find a site that answered alot of Catholic accusations against Luther using his own words recorded in history.  One had to do with this subject.  They basically said that Luther did approve of polygamy but only in a very strict sense.  He had a very narrow window when it came to polygamy with leprosy as being one of the examples cited.  So if a wife came down with leprosy, which meant she had to be taken out of the home and placed in a commune with other lepers then it would be ok for the man to remarry. 

Here's the link:  http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2005/12/martin-luther-topical-master-index-for.html

and a response to the charge about Luther and polygamy using Luther's own words.

"In a letter addressed to Joseph Levin Metzsch of December 9, 1526, Luther says: "Your first question: Whether person may have more than one wife? I answer thus: Let unbelievers do what they please; Christian liberty, however, is regulated by love (charity), so that all that a Christian does is done to serve his fellow-man, provided only that he can render such service without jeopardy and damage to his faith and conscience. Nowadays, however, everybody is striving for a liberty that profits and pleases him, without regard for the profit and improvement which his neighbor might derive from his action. This is contrary to the teaching of St. Paul, who says: 'All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient' (1 Cor. 6, 12). Only see that your liberty does not become an occasion to the flesh. . . . Moreover, although the patriarchs had many wives, Christians may not follow their example, because there is no necessity for doing this, no improvement is obtained thereby, and, especially, there is no word of God to justify this practise, while great offense and trouble may come from it. Accordingly, I do not believe that Christians any longer have this liberty. God would have to publish a command that would declare such a liberty." (21a, 901 f.) To Clemens Ursinus, pastor at Bruck, Luther writes under date of March 21, 1527: "Polygamy, which in former times was permitted to the Jews and Gentiles, cannot be honestly approved of among Christians, and cannot be engaged in with a good conscience, unless in an extreme case of necessity, as, for instance, when one of the spouses is separated from the other by leprosy or for a similar cause. Accordingly, you may say to the carnal people (with whom you have to do), if they want to be Christians, they must keep married fidelity and bridle their flesh, not give it license. If they want to be heathen, let them do what they please, at their own risk." (21a, 928.)

KFC POSTS:

LEAUKI POSTS: #18

Leauki,

 Your points against KFC's assertion that Jews had low regard for women are well made...but why make the charge of anti-Semitism?

As I read it, KFC simply disagrees with you over how well or not Jews in general  treated women in the Old Testament times. She may or may not be ignorant on the facts, but ignorance is a far from anti-Semitism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*gulp*

Both!

yay for forum burps and double posts!

Enjoy another pointless comic!

Lula posts:

KFC POSTS:

I addressed that already....God, for His own reasons, made concessions in the Old Law. He allowed polygamy and divorce.   

After the Fall, Marriage was under the regime of sin and the marital relationship became marred by concupiscence. God’s ancient design of faithful monogamy wasn't preserved. In His mercy, God hasn’t forsaken sinful man. Moral conscience concerning the unity and indissolubility of Marriage developed under the pedagogy of the Old Law. The law given to Moses aims at protecting the wife from arbitrary domination by the husband, even though according to the Lord’s words, it still carries traces of man’s ‘hardness of heart’ which was the reason Moses permitted men to divorce their wives.

So, Christ clearly tells us that, whatever consessions were made in the Old Law, it was God's intention from the very beginning that a man should cleave to his wife, not wives, and that they should be two in one flesh. God had made consessons becasue of the hardness of men's hearts in the less perfect Law, but those consessions were withdrawn in the more perfect Law. Christ restored the primitive law when He said, "Henceforth, what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

kfc posts #29

lULA POSTS:

kfc posts:

lULA POSTS:



kfc posts:




KFC,

Which one is it? I thought you agreed that God allowed polygamy. Now it seems you are backtracking...

Just for clarity, I have consistently said that God only tolerated it...He allowed it.


KFC POSTS:

Here, you're scaring me a little...sounds like you're saying that the Holy Bible is a real live entity.

The Holy Bible itself doesn't moralize or expect anything or pause to state....the Holy BIble needs an interpreter who does all those things.

LULA POSTS:

KFC POSTS:



whew! This is quite a charge you've levied against me and the Catholic Church. It no doubt is the way you FEEL, but you've judged wrongly.

Everything I've written in post # 33 in response to Zergimmi's comment is either taken from quotes of others or historical fact. Nothing biased or hateful there.

No, no hatred of Luther here...

It's true I can't find much intellectually good about him. For one....he declared reason was of the devil and that the Christian must regard it as his greatest enemy! and two, morally still less so. Perhaps you could convince me otherwise. His own writings and diaries record shocking excesses of sensuality, where he indulged his vices and concupiscenses giving disgraceful descriptions of not having been continent or chaste or being "soaked in wine".

Luther, an apostate Augustian priest, knew it was certainly contrary to his duty to violate solemn vows he had made to God and still more so, to take a nun from her convent.

Perhaps you can find something like that edifying in Luther, but no one who has an elementary knowledge of life in Christ and that of Luther can possibly reconcile them. I'm not saying this merely to detract from the memory of him, but the majority of those who glorifiy him know little or nothing about him save he was a legendary saintly reformer.

The more sincere Protestants wish to follow Christ, the less like Luther they become.

Follow me Lula carefully.  You're not taking the time to think about what I'm saying.  God did allow it....he allowed Cain to murder Abel as well.  He doesn't stop it.  Doesn't make it right.

But he NEVER condones or sanctions polygamy.  He doesn't say...."oh well, you're going to do it anyway...so go ahead."

No.  They all paid the price for this sin.  It was going against God's best.  Plain and simple.

So no...never does God make it ok for them to have more than one wife.  He never gives permission. 

well not so sure what's so scary with what I wrote Lula.  But yes, I do believe the inerrant word of God is alive as it says it is:

"For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit of joints and marrow and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

we've been over this a gazillion times Lula.  I know you believe the CC is the interpreter.  I disagree and so doesn't Peter whom you claim to be the first Pope. 

 

 

Follow me Lula carefully.  You're not taking the time to think about what I'm saying.  God did allow it....he allowed Cain to murder Abel as well.  He doesn't stop it.  Doesn't make it right.

But he NEVER condones or sanctions polygamy.  He doesn't say...."oh well, you're going to do it anyway...so go ahead."

No.  They all paid the price for this sin.  It was going against God's best.  Plain and simple.

So no...never does God make it ok for them to have more than one wife.  He never gives permission. 

well not so sure what's so scary with what I wrote Lula.  But yes, I do believe the inerrant word of God is alive as it says it is:

"For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit of joints and marrow and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

we've been over this a gazillion times Lula.  I know you believe the CC is the interpreter.  I disagree and so doesn't Peter whom you claim to be the first Pope. 

 

 

well then show me...don't just tell me Lula.  You made a charge, I countered it with Luther's own words and you came back with this above statement.  That's it?

Besides, I've talked to you personally and you've showed no love for Lulther.  You become quite animated when his name comes up.  I can give you site after Catholic site where they bash Luther.  So, I don't think I'm judging wrongly Lula.   I actually can give you examples where Catholic theologians have come to Luther's defense in spite of what their Catholic bretheren believe.   So there are a few honest Catholic theologians who are interested in facts.

You didn't show me any historical fact.  You made an accusation of which I backed up with the words of LUther himself documented.  Where's the beef?

be honest.  Of course you are.  You have gotten off subject here to go after Luther. 

You could say that about most men.  We are not to follow men but Christ.  While I've never been a Lutheran or much of a follower of Him, I do recognize the hand of God in his life and see that God set him aside for a purpose.   If it wasn't for Luther you and I would not be discussing the bible today.  We wouldn't even be in possession of one, except in secret. 

 

 

LULA POSTS:

 I think I have .....at first you said to Leauki that 

Leauki, I think you misunderstand. God NEVER allows poloygamy. Then or now.

and then you accepted my explaination,   God did allow polygamy...He didn't sanction it per se, but allowed it.

 

by  posting: Yes, you're right. God allowed it. I should have said God did not sanction it.

We are in agreement saying  

I see you are having double posting problems as well.

 

Yes, this has been going on with each reply I give for some reason. 

yes, where we are NOT in agreement is when you said it was part of the Old Law.  That part I disagreed with. 

 

 

Read my post # 33 again. I made no false or hateful charges against Luther. It's a matter of historical record that Luther sanctioned bigamy in order to retain the political influence of Philip of Hesse for the advancement of his Reformation.  God can only give dispensations from His own Laws as He did with the Patriarchs and kings of the OT when He tolerated the practice of polygamy.

My comments regarding  Luther's marriage to the nun (which I think are true) and which you took umbrage aren't my ideas, but were taken from a citation from  Luther's Work, Vol. 2, pg. 40.

[

Note the date. How can this possibly be a response to the charge of  Luther's advocating polygamy of Philip of Hesse when that didn't occur until 1539-40?

What you cite may have well been what Luther said in 1529, but some time between then and 1539-40,  the time he needed Philip of Hesse's diplomatic and military help to affect the process of the Protestant Reformation.

Luther's excuse for  sanctioning polygamy was to ostensibly prevent Philip of Hesse from lapsing into adultery and furthermoe according to Grisar, Luther iv. 51, and Verres, Luther, 315, Luther urged Philip to keep the matter secret and adivised him to deny the matter publicly, for "what harm would it do if a man told a good, lusty lie, (eine gute starke Luge) in a worthy cause and for the sake of the Christian churches?" 

Luther really wanted to keep this prince Philip of Hesse attached to the Lutheran cause. Unfortunately, Philip's polygamous marriage in 1540, while it had support from the Reformers, alienated other princes of states which proved disastrous in the long run. After Philip had confiscated monestaries, and raided other Church properties, and imposed  new religious church-state ordinances upon the people, he ended up imprisoned.

The Church with St.Peter as its first Pope and Catholicism was founded by Christ in 33AD at Pentecost.  Protestantism and the thousands of churches that flow from it was founded by Luther in 1517.  

  

Where does St.Peter disagree the CC is the interpreter of Scripture?  

 

LULA POSTS:

KFC POSTS:

KFC,

It's a historical fact that 1---Luther et al sanctioned bigamy for Philip of Hesse and 2...that Luther  married a nun (who btw may have been pregnant at least according to a letter to Luther from Desiderius Erasmus,  he wrote he felt the marriage was timely as he heard the child was born 10 days afterward).

Well, please remember, I'm not the one who first brought up Luther and polygamy..

and yes, I will always defend myself and the Church  when I think I've been falsely charged with hating someone...hate the sin, not the sinner. I think you will agree with that.