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Iron Lore Entertainment's copy protection bites them on the butt

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Iron Lore Entertainment's copy protection bites them on the butt

from Sins Forums
Iron Lore Entertainment, maker of Titan Quest, is closing up shop due in part to low sales. Michael Fitch, a fellow from THQ, had some interesting things to say about it:

It's a rough, rough world out there for independent studios who want to make big games, even worse if you're single-team and don't have a successful franchise to ride or a wealthy benefactor. Trying to make it on PC product is even tougher, and here's why.

Piracy. Yeah, that's right, I said it. No, I don't want to re-hash the endless "piracy spreads awareness", "I only pirate because there's no demo", "people who pirate wouldn't buy the game anyway" round-robin. Been there, done that. I do want to point to a couple of things, though.

One, there are other costs to piracy than just lost sales. For example, with TQ, the game was pirated and released on the nets before it hit stores. It was a fairly quick-and-dirty crack job, and in fact, it missed a lot of the copy-protection that was in the game. One of the copy-protection routines was keyed off the quest system, for example. You could start the game just fine, but when the quest triggered, it would do a security check, and dump you out if you had a pirated copy. There was another one in the streaming routine. So, it's a couple of days before release, and I start seeing people on the forums complaining about how buggy the game is, how it crashes all the time. A lot of people are talking about how it crashes right when you come out of the first cave. Yeah, that's right. There was a security check there.

So, before the game even comes out, we've got people bad-mouthing it because their pirated copies crash, even though a legitimate copy won't. We took a lot of sh** on this, completely undeserved mind you. How many people decided to pick up the pirated version because it had this reputation and they didn't want to risk buying something that didn't work? Talk about your self-fulfilling prophecy.

. . .

What was the ultimate impact of that? Hard to measure, but it did get mentioned in several reviews. Think about that the next time you read "we didn't have any problems running the game, but there are reports on the internet that people are having crashes."

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=42663
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You have to wonder if Titan Quest would have sold better if they used no copy protection like Stardock's games.
92,421 views 55 replies
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top
TitanQuest was a fun Diablo clone. Not all games have to innovate to sell well (ie. all of Blizzard's games) but for me personally, I think what killed the game was a combination of all the things mentioned but the biggest gripe I had was the lack of closed servers for their multiplayer portion of the game. While it might sound silly at first, multiplayer is usually the single thing that keeps a game active and is what keeps people interested in expansions and sequels.

I know some friends who bought the game and promptly lost interest after a week because of how multiplayer was full of hacked characters and that it was impossible to find a public game that wasn't invaded by them. Sure, I can play with a select group of friends in a passworded server, but that loses it's fun once said friends drop due to time constraints or they move on to other games. This was the biggest reason I didn't bother with the TQ expansion since a friend said they never changed that aspect of MP.

Having open-only servers for a multiplayer-enabled Diablo clone or an action RPG is practically suicide these days. So at the end, I think it was a combination of bad ideas and issues that ended Iron Lore rather than just "just evil, evil world-ending piracy!"

On the opposite-side, Asceron/Sacred is the complete opposite of how things should be done with a Diablo-clone. Great and constant developer support, good dev communication (plus a free add-on), closed and open servers, all of that makes Sacred 2 a must-buy for me.

Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top
I sent a PM to Kyro to merge this thread into the other one. Hopefully he will do so.
Curtains - Customize Windows with additional styles
Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top
See pirates are usually some of the most clever people in the gaming world. I know quite a few that play many online games including WC3 and World or Warcraf and Guild Wars, you name it. Without paying a dime.
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with WOW they arent playing on blizzards servers with the paying customers though , theyre playing on private servers that are run with the stolen server code of blizzards , you dont get thousands of people on the same server because they dont have the hardware for it, if you lucky you will be able to play with enough people to raid.

ive never heard of anyone playing guildwars on a cracked copy, i dont even think there has ever been a guild wars release.

pirates can only play with other pirates when they play cracked versions of games so its a really good idea for a devloper to have awesome multiplayer that requires a cdkey, you will sell many more copys of your game than you would of a game centred around a single player campaign because the people who pirate games will see its fun online and want to play on the legit servers where more people are.
Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top
Please keep in mind that multiplayer is not the answer to the question at hand however. The solo player experience constitutes a very large player base if the majority for the majority of the time and should not be discounted lightly. Moreover many people preach the benefits of multiplayer only (MMO) but it is simply a false dichotomy.
Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top
I disagree. Designing a product with traps in it to thwart would be pirates without considering the impact it would have on legitimate users in the market was what ruined it for the game. It was simply a bad project management decision.
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What impact on legitimate users? It's a piracy check, if you're a legitimate user the game would run fine.



Now, I feel that DRM is a waste of money, it doesn't prevent people from pirating the game, only delays it by up to a week, and it slows it down, causes bugs, and generally makes the experience worse.


However, it wasn't draconian DRM that killed Titan Quest, if anything it had very light DRM.

Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top
What impact on legitimate users? It's a piracy check, if you're a legitimate user the game would run fine.
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This is discussed previous page, but the gist is about legitimate people will believe the game is buggy and likely to crash as all the pirated versions will crash out and tell everyone else it crashes etc. Not realising it's nessecarily to do with the piracy protection.

I mean if you were told that a game was really buggy and crashing from a mate who pirated it, you would simply assume it was likely the game itself, and not the fact it's pirated.

Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top
I do believe that linking a game's content to the internet and requiring a valid serial is the way to go for anti-piracy PC gaming, but it doesn't necessarily need to have a multiplayer portion.

Look at Galciv2, it gets constant updates that change/improve a lot of stuff and if you don't have an original copy you'll have to sweat to find the cracks mostly because most if not all pirate release groups don't bother with repeatedly cracking the same game just because a new patch that adds x,y,z was released.
Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top
What impact on legitimate users? It's a piracy check, if you're a legitimate user the game would run fine.
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er.. i bought it.
encountered the copy protection
the method of copy protection used has a dependency on the bios / cd-rom drive.
if the manufacturer doesnt provide regular updates to their hardware, you encounter problems (ie package desktops/laptops from dell, hp, etc)

other games have similar methods, remembers buying bfme2, losing every game after 3 minutes
(the hidden copy protection trick, in that), having to find a no-cd crack to play the thing. EA still haven't release fix / Dell updated the cd-rom drivers.









Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top

On WindowBlinds 5, we had activation in it and badly cracked versions would cause problems of a specific nature.

But we made sticky posts everywhere we could to point out that those problems were caused by pirating the program.  As a result, legitimate buyers of the product were very aggressive about nailing people who complained about WindowBlinds being "buggy" in the specific way caused by the poor crack.

I wonder how much the pain that Iron Lore ran into could have been mitigated if they would have just fought back and been aggressive at pointing out the cause of the crashes in question.

Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top
I wonder how much the pain that Iron Lore ran into could have been mitigated if they would have just fought back and been aggressive at pointing out the cause of the crashes in question.
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Probably half as much :D The other half of their problems stemming from bad product, rather than copy protection, after all :D
Reply #36 from Sins Forums Top
But for the extremely well-documented rubber-banding issue introduced in the expansion pack, Titan Quest was a superb isometric action game. It gut-stomped Diablo, to be blunt.

THQ refused to fund patches to fix the issues debuting in the otherwise splendid expansion pack, and so Iron Lore took some punches.

My game group enjoyed the living shit out of this game for a VERY long time.

Some talented people on the loose right now... if I had a development company I would grab them.
Reply #37 from Sins Forums Top
I disagree. Designing a product with traps in it to thwart would be pirates without considering the impact it would have on legitimate users in the market was what ruined it for the game. It was simply a bad project management decision.
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This is so wrong it beggars belief. The traps had no impact on legitimate users, only on pirates.
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Talk for your self, my game was crashing exactly like they described in in the link. Ironically I "fixed" it by applying a crack.

I my case it was my motherboard/dvd combination that was causing problem. When I replaced either the game would work again. (I love having access to a hardware lab at work ;) ) The MB was from Asus and the DVD a Sony drive so it is not like they where some kind of no-name chinese generic hardware that was causing problem either.

I realise I am not statistically significant but the copy protection did cause trouble for at least one customer. I think I still have the receipt somewhere as proof that I am a lawful owner if someone feels like calling me a pirate :) .


Reply #38 from Sins Forums Top
I wonder how much the pain that Iron Lore ran into could have been mitigated if they would have just fought back and been aggressive at pointing out the cause of the crashes in question.Probably half as much The other half of their problems stemming from bad product, rather than copy protection, after all
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I think more then half personally. They took a BEATING on many gamer forums about the crashes and when asked about the problem and if they were going to fix it they were a stonewall if I recall correctly and that added fuel to the fire. Couple that with THQ patch policy, as bad as EA to be sure and well things snowballed quickly. Case close.

Reply #39 from Sins Forums Top
THQ patch policy is what one might call incredibly bad. Its not quite as bad as EA's - but theres certainly noone ELSE worse.
Reply #40 from Sins Forums Top
THQ patch policy is what one might call incredibly bad. Its not quite as bad as EA's - but theres certainly noone ELSE worse.
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Try Jowood.
Reply #41 from Sins Forums Top
What do you mean by patch policy?
Reply #42 from Sins Forums Top
What do you mean by patch policy?
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At first you had me going... I figured it was a trick question. Then it dawned on me you don’t have one. This is so because you always update your titles. Companies like Acti had/have a two patch limit.

Anyway in general it is a support policy that limits number of fixes/updates the publisher is willing to underwrite with regards to a given title. I think/would venture to say that the universal standard now is one (1) with a provision for a second patch if any major^ issues are discovered after the first patch provided the title has not reached the end of its life cycle a.k.a. has an x-pack planned for it within the next financial cycle.

^publisher decides this based on sales levels
Reply #43 from Sins Forums Top
the world is bad... but theres still hope :P
Reply #44 from Sins Forums Top
Well the "story" is gaining some attention. Wired is reporting on it now. You can read (and comment) on it here.
Reply #45 from Sins Forums Top
Update: The guys at Tom's just did a feature video story on the issue. They ended it with the notion that an independent developer simply cant survive doing PC games only. Additionally they basically said nearly all PC gamers are "thieves" and simply wont pay for games. Would you like to know more? If so click here.



I so wish Frogboy goes there and posts or does an interview with them. The main reviewer from Toms is here maybe he can broker something for Frogboy.

Reply #46 from Sins Forums Top
Had Iron Lore been working on the Stardock DRM free policy, then they would've lived.

Frankly, the best way to combat piracy is to constantly put out tiny little updates for the game, particularly content based so users feel they aren't cheated.

People pirate because they feel they are being cheated by the cost of games, in addition to those who are just in for it for greed. You really need to engage with the fact that over 75% of the people who play your game aren't going to buy unless there's some kind of incentetive to. DRM isn't an incentative, it's a deterrent. And we know it doesn't work.
Reply #47 from Sins Forums Top
Maybe the people in this community know that but the general perception is strikingly different. It is especially so form the developers perspective and the bigger the developer the more ardent they become to this belief.
Reply #48 from Sins Forums Top

Had Iron Lore been working on the Stardock DRM free policy, then they would've lived.
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Well, Stardock DRM free policy has a cost for developpers (staffing enough persons for patchs, contents updates, interacting with users, .... ). And that cost must be translated into money from the publisher. And I don't think that publishers (and the associated bean counters)  are ready for that way to handle piracy ;)

Reply #49 from Sins Forums Top
@Peace Phoenix - I would they are when they factor in all the variables both tangible and intangible as well as the impact on the value of their products.

Speaking of which personally, I think you guys don’t charge enough for your games honestly. Not that I want to pay more for stuff, I don’t make good money because I'm stupid. I do so because I give value to my customers like you guys. I just think the products you offer as part of your "service plan" commands a little higher price. Hell that is why I pay you guys for subscriptions I don’t use.
Reply #50 from Sins Forums Top
I don't get people's dislike of titan quest so much. :P Diablo was not the first action rpg, it's like saying every new fps is a clone of the last big one, because you sneak around, shoot guys, pick up bigger guns, etc. or that every rts where you gather resources to build guys and attack is a clone of.. whatever the first big one was. :P I liked it more than diablo 2 in most respects. Also, legal copy, no crashes or problems or bugs, same with my friend, unlike diablo 2 where I was affraid to use the jump skill with my barbarian lest it leave an invisible wall of force preventing my friends from advancing... but I guess no one concerns themselves with diablo 2's earlier patches..(assuming that was ever fixed) But, on the topic at-hand...

I have a mixed opinion of the copy protection issue. So far I think the verified cd key linked to an account is best, and I am generally in favor of little to no copy protections because I buy my games and don't want any anti-pirate traps to effect me. On the other hand... it's hard to tell a game studio to not protect their game at all, because let's face it, the easier it is to pirate the more people are gonna pirate it, period.

If I ran a game studio I'd probably go pretty light on the copy protections just due to it creating more instability, but in regards to the original posters train of thought, I most certainly would not be motivated by the fact that angry pirates are bad mouthing my game for preventing them from pirating.