What is Faith

And why I can't I have any

from JoeUser Forums

 

I have never understood faith. People tell me it’s faith to believe that anything is going to happen that has chance of not happening. This is not true, and it confuses faith with trust. Faith is the belief in something despite the evidence. Trust is the belief in something because of the evidence. The level of trust I have that a given action will result in a predictable consequence is directly related to the percentage of times that consequence occurs. I have the maximum trust in that when I hit the letter G that letter will appear on my screen because it has always done so. My level of trust can go down to zero from there.

 I can attempt to fool myself by artificially increasing my level of trust in something for the purpose of easing my mind. When shooting pool for instance I will attempt to see a low percentage shot as easy, artificially increasing the odds in my mind so that I may relax more. This does work somewhat, but deep down I still know it was a shot that I’m only going to make say once or twice out of ten attempts. Having faith does ease your mind, even if it’s a forced delusion. I can only imagine how much so if I could completely ignore the real odds.

 Nothing supernatural has ever been proven to exist. When I watch Ghost Hunters or any other paranormal television I see a comedy, not a documentary. Every one of their evidences has been explained away. When a human body is opened there is no bright light shooting out with angels singing, you reveal a flawed biological machine that resembles many other species  and does not defy explanation, and could even now be significantly improved upon.

 The differences between humans and the four top primates is very small. The fact is there may be only a few small abilities that other animals have and primates are missing, that if they had could lead to the development of other exclusively human abilities like the desire to teach and understanding what someone else is thinking in them. Paying attention to what someone else is trying to tell you for instance is an ability that most every dog on the planet has and that primates lack, could when boiled down to it, be the only thing that’s kept them from becoming self-aware and on a similar path as ours. Over time their brains would have grow larger and they would begin to build shelters and form societies. Primates have already shown they can work together for the greater good. There bodies would undergo small changes as a result of different needs placed upon them, but they would always look like apes. So I trust that evolution is how the species on this planet including humans developed because that’s what the evidence tells me. I don’t have faith in it and it’s not a religion.

 There are thousands of stories of people performing miracles throughout history. Does that mean we’ve had thousands of gods walking among us? No of course not. Is it odd that there would be only a few that became the most famous? No it’s inevitable this would occur. Is it unusual or against human nature that the most famous of these would be perpetuated then used by those in power for their own reasons having nothing to do with truth? No it’s been a favorite tool of leaders for all of recorded history. Is it likely that only these most famous would be considered the only ones that were telling the truth? Yes to even consider that the others were telling the truth would marginalize the most famous.

 So in light of all this is it more likely that Jesus was the only one of these that was the son of a god, or that none of them were? How you answer that is up to you but if you consider the odds it’s almost as likely the letter P is going to pop up on the screen when I hit the letter G.

  If I were to have faith in god I would have to be capable of deluding myself completely and ignoring what logic and the odds tell me and the fact that religion would exist regardless, I have no idea how to do that. I would probably be happier if I could but I can’t.  I really don’t want to burn in hell forever so to any of you whom has a personal relationship with god or his son please have him come over and explain things, maybe even a quick tour of heaven, because anything short of that and I’m scewed.

religion
4,545 views 25 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top

You sound like you have a statistical mindset.  Everything has a probability from 0, it's not going to happen, to 1, it's definitely going to happen.

Faith is interesting...though I have only a little.  It just seems that things either happen or they don't and there's not much you can do to change it unless do something that directly affects the situation.  Having faith is believing...and believing has no real effect on the world outside of your mind, only action.

Of course, the main purpose of faith is to feel better.  That's what it's used for...this will be okay because I have faith, this guy will be punished because I have faith, I'm going to heaven because I have faith.  There's nothing wrong with that, it's just a way to deal with things that you normally have no control over.

~Zoo

 

Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top

Why can't I change the font of that last paragraph?

Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
Why can't I change the font of that last paragraph?
End of quote


Because the internet is not your friend.

Hmm, did you highlight and try to mess with it? Like so? Wingdings!

~Zoo
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top

Hey Zoo,

Hmm, did you highlight and try to mess with it? Like so? Wingdings!
End of quote

Yea I have no problem changing the rest of the article but the font on that last paragraph is locked for some reason (:(

You sound like you have a statistical mindset.
End of quote

I must have.

I don't consider wishing something to be true as faith. I agree though it does make you feel better to wish things to go your way despite the odds.  I play the lotto once in a while even though I know it's just a tax on people whom are bad at math :LOL:

Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
Faith (or belief) is a tool for achieving results, not the end result itself. That's what I think, and its worked for me.
End of quote


Makes sense. It can help you get from one place to another...yeah, I can see that.

~Zoo
Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top

If you don't understand how a microwave works, you still have 'faith' that if you put a cuppa joe in there for a minute or two... its gonna get hot.
End of quote

 

That’s not faith it’s trust. I trust the microwave is going to heat my cup of joe because every time I use it, that’s what happens. Faith would be unplugging the microwave then expecting it to heat your coffee. I don’t have to have a clue how something works to trust that it’s going to work. I don’t understand gravity but I put a great deal of trust in that I’m not going to shoot off into space anytime soon.

Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top

Faith, in the religious sense, is a belief in a set of principles, perhaps, a doctrine, or set of practices. Its roots (from OED),  both Anglo-Saxon and French, are derived from the Latin, fides, which suggests trust. 

 

We trust the toaster will toast if we know about toasters, but if we do not know about toasters, have no evidence they will toast, but are told by a trusted source that they will do so, then if we believe they will toast, we are said to have faith in toasters. 

 

I hope this helps.

 

Be well.

Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top

When you say "evolution is how the species on this planet including humans developed because that’s what the evidence tells me." that just doesn't make sense.  I'm no scientist, but looking at the utter complexity of the human anatomy, how can you say that it "evolved" from basically nothing?  Here's an example; if I told you that mount rushmore wasn't actually carved out of that rock, but that millions and millions of years of wind and water erosion made those faces appear, you'd probablly think I was loony.  How then is it different to say that millions and millions of years can make even the simplest of organisms from nothing?

Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top

Faith, in the religious sense, is a belief in a set of principles, perhaps, a doctrine, or set of practices. Its roots (from OED), both Anglo-Saxon and French, are derived from the Latin, fides, which suggests trust.
End of quote

"FIDES" is often (and wrongly) translated 'faith', but it has nothing to do with the word as used by Christians writing in Latin about the Christian virute (St. Paul Letter to the Corinthians, chapter 13). For the Romans, FIDES was an essential element in the character of a man of public affairs, and a necessary constituent element of all social and political transactions (perhaps = 'good faith'). FIDES meant 'reliablilty', a sense of trust between two parties if a relationship between them was to exist. FIDES was always reciprocal and mutual, and implied both privileges and responsibilities on both sides. In both public and private life the violation of FIDES was considered a serious matter, with both legal and religious consequences. FIDES, in fact, was one of the first of the 'virtues' to be considered an actual divinity at Rome. The Romans had a saying, "Punica fides" (the reliability of a Carthaginian) which for them represented the highest degree of treachery: the word of a Carthaginian (like Hannibal) was not to be trusted, nor could a Carthaginian be relied on to maintain his political elationships”.

Good Faith is the correct translation of Fides and “good faith” has a much different meaning than the word “faith” alone.

 Faith and Trust while having a common root have grown apart in meaning and are no longer interchangeable IMO. Whether you agree with this or not for the purpose of this article the definition will be restricted to a “firm belief in something for which there is no proof”.   

 I hope you’re well too

 Mark

Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top

There's no such thing as gravity. The earth just sucks. Really hard.
End of quote

 

If that were true beach balls would be really heavy.

Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top

 

 tygonIs,

 

Tell me the truth, your cat choose your user name right? :LOL:

 

I don’t want this to turn into another evolution argument please and thank you.

 

KFC’s got that subject covered.

 

 

Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
When you say "evolution is how the species on this planet including humans developed because that’s what the evidence tells me." that just doesn't make sense. I'm no scientist, but looking at the utter complexity of the human anatomy, how can you say that it "evolved" from basically nothing? Here's an example; if I told you that mount rushmore wasn't actually carved out of that rock, but that millions and millions of years of wind and water erosion made those faces appear, you'd probablly think I was loony. How then is it different to say that millions and millions of years can make even the simplest of organisms from nothing?
End of quote


Well, it's easier to say magic, isn't it? Why does lightining strike? Positive and negative ions...nah...God obviously. Why does a volcano erupt? Pressure from magma under the earth finally being released...or maybe God was just angry, yeah that's it. How are babies born? God put it there of course, no way could sperm and egg come together and form a zygote without any outside interference from God.

Do you see how that mindset goes? "I don't understand it, God did it." You look at the evidence and it doesn't make sense to you...God obviously did it. God=magic when you look at the world...science seeks to figure out what really happens aside from whatever preconceived ideas the rest of the world has.

Evolution is really easy to get if you take the time...in fact, browse the forums for some articles and more than likely you'll see my comments in there going into great detail about the entire process.

Using your Mt. Rushmore example. Erosion didn't create it, but a human did. That human made it bit, by bit...not all at once. That's kind of like evolution. Small changes occcur in something(in this case a mountain) and eventually it becomes something new(a sculpture).

Anywho, that's as far as I'm going. I don't want stubby to drown in another one of these debates.

~Zoo

Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top

Using your Mt. Rushmore example. Erosion didn't create it, but a human did. That human made it bit, by bit...not all at once. That's kind of like evolution. Small changes occcur in something(in this case a mountain) and eventually it becomes something new(a sculpture).
End of quote


hmmmmmm and here I was thinking it was all about a designer.....;)


You can have FAITH in anything.  I have FAITH that my husband will get up every morning at 6 am to read before he goes to work.  I have FAITH that my sons will call me sometime during the week.  I don't know for sure, but I have faith that they will.


In church today I taught the ladies an acronym for FAITH.  Perhaps you've heard it?  From a Christian POV of  course we have faith in God. So we say.....


F-orsaking


A-ll


I


T-rust


H-im


 

Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top

"FIDES" is often (and wrongly) translated 'faith', but it has nothing to do with the word as used by Christians writing in Latin about the Christian virute (St. Paul Letter to the Corinthians, chapter 13). For the Romans, FIDES was an essential element in the character of a man of public affairs, and a necessary constituent element of all social and political transactions (perhaps = 'good faith'). FIDES meant 'reliablilty', a sense of trust between two parties if a relationship between them was to exist. FIDES was always reciprocal and mutual, and implied both privileges and responsibilities on both sides. In both public and private life the violation of FIDES was considered a serious matter, with both legal and religious consequences. FIDES, in fact, was one of the first of the 'virtues' to be considered an actual divinity at Rome. The Romans had a saying, "Punica fides" (the reliability of a Carthaginian) which for them represented the highest degree of treachery: the word of a Carthaginian (like Hannibal) was not to be trusted, nor could a Carthaginian be relied on to maintain his political elationships”. Good Faith is the correct translation of Fides and “good faith” has a much different meaning than the word “faith” alone.
End of quote

 

I did not translate it as such, but pointed out with the Oxford English Dictionary, its derivation.   One wonders what your stumbling block is. Perhaps an exploration of the relationships between faith, belief, and trust might be helpful. I thought I was pointing you in that direction with my example. 

 

Be well.

Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top

hmmmmmm and here I was thinking it was all about a designer.....
End of quote


I said creation could've occured at the very onset of life. But bit by bit(microbe by microbe) things became more complex. :)  Perhaps I should clarify more.  The erosion in my example would illustrate random chaos becoming a recognizable, complex form.  The human represents a more ordered process...natural selection. :D  However, it's difficult to draw appropriate analogies with inanimate objects because living things cannot really be compared to things that are not alive.


Creation would dictate that the entire mountain was revamped with four faces in the blink of an eye.

~Zoo

Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top

We trust the toaster will toast if we know about toasters, but if we do not know about toasters, have no evidence they will toast, but are told by a trusted source that they will do so, then if we believe they will toast, we are said to have faith in toasters.
End of quote

You did offer a definition witch IMO is wrong.

 

I find most everyone uses the words faith, belief and trust as if they all mean exactly the same thing when there are significant philosophical differences between them.

 Abraham is a pillar of Christian faith because he did not know god would send an angel to stop him from sacrificing his son Isaac on the alter. If he had known it would have not been an act of faith. If you have proof faith is irrelevant.

When you trust someone or something that trust has been earned, trust must be warranted. Faith does not have to be earned or rationally justifiable.

Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
I find most everyone uses the words faith, belief and trust as if they all mean exactly the same thing when there are significant philosophical differences between them.
End of quote


Yes, I think you're right but don't you think they are closely related? Abraham had faith in God even enough to slay his son, if needed. But God had already proven himself to Abraham. Abraham had this son when it was way past a miracle to do so.

Having Faith is having unquestioning belief and to be faithful means to be loyal to the one you have faith in.

To be trustful is to believe the honesty or reliability of another. To trust is to believe in and have trust in.

I have faith in God because, like Abraham, he's already proven himself to me. I know what he has told us is true because of past experiences in my life have proven this to be true.

So I now have faith that the future will unfold exactly as he has told us it will in his word even tho I'm not exactly sure every detail of how this will all pan out.

Abraham knew that in the end it would be ok even tho what he was being told to do didn't make much sense to him. He had faith and was loyal to the one he put his trust in.

Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top

Abraham knew that in the end it would be ok even tho what he was being told to do didn't make much sense to him. He had faith and was loyal to the one he put his trust in.
End of quote

 

That’s just it though; Abraham had every reason to believe that his son was going to die by his own hand. God never told him it was going to be all right. He had faith despite what he knew to be the consequence of thrusting a knife into his son and what he was being told by God. If God had told him that his son would not die, then yes you could say he "trusted" God.

You can have faith without proof or even despite the proof. Trust requires at least some proof. Whether that proof is past actions, past experiances or empirical data there must be something to justify it. That's not the case with faith.

 

 

Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top

That’s just it though; Abraham had every reason to believe that his son was going to die by his own hand. God never told him it was going to be all right
End of quote

But he did.  Abraham knew that God had promised him that thru this son his descendants would be like the sands of the sea or the stars in the sky.  Go back and read the full account.  What we think (and can only assume) is that Abraham must have thought his son would be resurrected by God in order to make this happen.  God had told him he would have a son, and it came to pass.  God showed him all along the way he was with him so Abraham had faith in God because he had a relationship with God and knew his word was true. 

You can have faith without proof or even despite the proof
End of quote

This is true but it's based on past experiences that have proven themselves out by the one who we have faith in. 

You may trust me because I've proven myself trustworthy to you.  Then later when I tell you something is going to happen even without giving you the proof you have faith that it will come to pass based on the past.  You have faith in me even tho I've given you no proof I'm going to do what I say.  All you can go on is past experiences. 

Hebrews 11 is known as the "Faith" Chapter in the bible.  It is the Hall of Fame of Faith,   The chapter starts out with a definition of Faith.  It says:

"Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Faith is described in this verse as the substance (assurance or reality) of things hoped for and the evidence (proof) of things not seen.  Faith gives reality and proof of things unseen; treating them as if they were already objects of sight rather than hope.

That's why many speak of seeing by Faith and not by sight. 

 

Reply #20 from Stardock Forums Top

But he did. Abraham knew that God had promised him that thru this son his descendants would be like the sands of the sea or the stars in the sky. Go back and read the full account. What we think (and can only assume) is that Abraham must have thought his son would be resurrected by God in order to make this happen. God had told him he would have a son, and it came to pass. God showed him all along the way he was with him so Abraham had faith in God because he had a relationship with God and knew his word was true.
End of quote

Where the Bible is concerned I'll yield to your expertise. Do you think there is anyone alive now who would be capable of that level of faith? I guess if God was actually talking to him it was not as big a leap of faith. Today if anyone besides the pope says that god spoke to them, they're labeled as nuts, and of course anyone killing their own son because they said "god told them to" is a murderer to all, even the pope.

If God were speaking to me at least that would be evidence. Evidence that he exist, evidence of telepathy, evidence my fillings were picking up CBN or evidence I'm nuts, but evidence none the less.  

The thrust of this article is my objection the use of the word faith to describe scientific beliefs. It's deliberately used by Christians and the like to equate scientific beliefs to religious beliefs.

"Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
End of quote

This is the proper definition of faith. Hope is not part of the scientific process in any way and if there is a belief in something that cannot be seen, it's based upon supporting evidence. You obviously can't see a black hole but there is much supporting evidence to believe that they exist and if there were no evidence of them they would not be thought to exist.

Faith is a religious term and should only be used to describe religious beliefs. Yes it has a common derivative to trust but there meanings have significantly diverged.

Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yes it has a common derivative to trust but there meanings have significantly diverged.
End of quote


Holy shit they evolved! *dramatic music*

~Zoo
Reply #22 from Stardock Forums Top

Holy shit they evolved! *dramatic music*
End of quote

it's important to note that it was only microevolution  ;)

Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
Where the Bible is concerned I'll yield to your expertise. Do you think there is anyone alive now who would be capable of that level of faith?
End of quote


Good question. Abraham was certainly known for his great faith. But I do think when you read the Hall of Fame in Hebrews 11 you see many with true Faith. How to measure it from person to person? Not sure. Job said that even if God slay him, he would still trust him. That's remarkable faith as well. THe Lord gives and the Lord takes away.

But I do believe when I read story after story of the martyrs throughout history we see great faith. Many risked their lives for others having faith not in the material world but in the eternal believing the promises of God. Thomas, the doubter wouldn't believe UNTIL he saw with his own eyes and Jssus said to him "More blessed are those who believe and don't see."

Walking by faith and not by sight is not as hard as you think when you have a relationship with someone you have complete trust in.
Reply #24 from Stardock Forums Top

That's cool too, but I don't think you'll like it very much.
End of quote
LW

this is just an excuse for vengeance.  Since when do you need an excuse? 

I haven't bashed you at all.  Most of the talk on Bias was to Ock accusing him of jumping on your bandwagon without checking his facts.  It really had not much to do with you at all other than you started the ball rolling yet once again as you're doing here. It's all about taking the focus off the topic and onto you isn't it? 

My problem is that no matter which thread I visit you show up, cause a diversion (as you're doing here) to get us off topic.  You did it on Sodaiho's and that was the last straw for me.  I liken it to a temper tantrum you wanting to be noticed.  I've noticed this over and over again. 

I have nothing to prove unless it's just that I want you to stop which I've asked repeatedly of you and you won't.  So I had no choice but to blacklist you mostly because I can't find a delete key anymore.  You know as well as I that this is the first time I've every done this in the two years plus you and I have had "words"  and  I admit it was frustration that caused me to blacklist you because I didn't see any alternative. 

Jesus loves everyone.  He died for the sinners LW.   It's ironic that you highlighted ME in your last sentence because that's what this is all about isn't it?  (:(

 

 

Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top

Stubbyfinger writes:
I have never understood faith. People tell me it’s faith to believe that anything is going to happen that has chance of not happening. This is not true, and it confuses faith with trust. Faith is the belief in something despite the evidence. Trust is the belief in something because of the evidence. The level of trust I have that a given action will result in a predictable consequence is directly related to the percentage of times that consequence occurs. I have the maximum trust in that when I hit the letter G that letter will appear on my screen because it has always done so. My level of trust can go down to zero from there.
End of quote


Stubbyfinger,

Very interesting article...and comments too.

I hope you don't mind my jumping in late...as I've been out of the loop so to speak due to computer problems.

You begin by saying you've never understood faith yet you certainly have definite ideas about it. Your definition of faith is straight forward even though there is quite a distinction to be made if one is talking (supernatural)virtue of faith and or simple faith or trust such as your example of pressing the "G" key and having the "G" appear on the screen as a result.

So, what's the difference between supernatural faith and simple ordinary faith? Well, having ordinary faith in things has its limitations. Using your example with the letter "G", it fails; one won't get the results if the computer is broken or turned off, or messed up in any way. Whereas divine or supernatural faith can never disappoint, or fail, or deceive.

The Catholic Church teaches that the supernatural virtue of faith is a gift of God which enables us to believe without doubting whatever God has revealed. Faith is an act of the intellect based on rational motives of credibility that will stand any test. This faith which is the beginning of man's salvation whereby with the help of GOd's grace, we believe what He reveals not becasue we perceive its intrinsic truth by the natural light of our reason, but on account of the authroity of God who can neither deceive or be deceived.

Nothing supernatural has ever been proven to exist.
End of quote



There are thousands of stories of people performing miracles throughout history. ....So in light of all this is it more likely that Jesus was the only one of these that was the son of a god, or that none of them were? How you answer that is up to you but if you consider the odds it’s almost as likely the letter P is going to pop up on the screen when I hit the letter G.
End of quote


Yes, I believe it upon Faith. Faith in Christ whom they believed to be what He claimed to be, "The Truth". I believe Christ to have what He claimed to have, all the power there is in Heaven and on earth. While Catholics accept belief as a matter of faith, it is faith that is in harmony with reason. The Catholic mind which is highly rational places no limits on the power of God who is Infinite in His power to do anything including appearing in the flesh as did Jesus Christ. Hence, upon faith, the supernatural invisible chain that binds us to God, it is reasonable to accept Christ at His word.

The nature of this faith can be considered this way.

The first Christians, the Apostles go into the world to preach what they have seen, heard, and touched in the person of Christ. They do not KNOW that Christ is God, thus they have the choice of belief or unbelief. They believe; others do not. Seeing a man work miracles like bringing Lazurus from the dead does not automatically produce faith. We have to choose. So begins the final stage of the drama of salvation. In turn the Apostles present what God has revealed in the words of a man called Christ, and men either accept or reject it. If they believe they must accept the whole message, becasue there is no argument with messengers sent by God. In this exercise of their freedom, men are choosing their eternal destinies.


If I were to have faith in god I would have to be capable of deluding myself completely and ignoring what logic and the odds tell me and the fact that religion would exist regardless, I have no idea how to do that. I would probably be happier if I could but I can’t. I really don’t want to burn in hell forever so to any of you whom has a personal relationship with god or his son please have him come over and explain things, maybe even a quick tour of heaven, because anything short of that and I’m scewed.
End of quote



How does one acquire supernatural faith? By first understanding that supernatural faith includes the following principles:

God is our First Beginning and our Last End.
God has supreme dominion over us.
We owe God due service, which we express in religion.
True religion is the true worship of the one true God.
God has told us how He wants to be worshipped.
Man must obey this teaching of God.
Man has no right to practice a religion of his own making against God's will.
God alone can declare to us in what religion consists.
This declaration of God contains the body of revealed truths. The truths which God revealed are found in Sacred Scripture and in Sacred Tradition.
To acquire supernatural faith, we are bound to believe them.

The differences between humans and the four top primates is very small. .......So I trust that evolution is how the species on this planet including humans developed because that’s what the evidence tells me. I don’t have faith in it and it’s not a religion.
End of quote


Religion and science call for belief by both faith and study. Faith proceeds all study. God's revealed religion begins with divine faith that will not deceive, in fact cannot deceive. whereas science, thus macro-Evolution, begins with human faith that is fallible.

It's utterly impossible to study chemistry, grammar, history, or any scientific subject as well as religion without accepting first principles upon faith, without faith in teachers.

With all due respect, your misunderstand what Faith/trust really is and its basic role in the sphere of science as well as religion. Fiath is not emotional, blind submission to the unknowable. Rather, it's an intellectual assent of the mind to something not seen with the physical eye, the acceptance of a truth upon the authority of some one else. In religion, it's Divine Authority, "taking God at His word." In science, certainly in the case of believing in Evolution Theory, it's faith upon human authority, that may or may not be right.

When faith of science is accepted and not faith of true religion, it is wise to recall the divinely inspired declaration of St. John, "If we accept the testimony of man, the testimony of God is greater."