Muslims March Protests School Killings! Wait No they didn't.

Issue all the Edicts You Want Against Me.

from JoeUser Forums

A couple of days ago Pseudosoldier posted a thought provoking article here. Go read it, I’ll wait….

 

Hmmmm….Hmmmm…. Hmmmm….

 

Back? Ok great… the main thrust of it was to point up a possible upsurge of conscience in the Muslim community. Perhaps even the Muslim community condemning the Russian school atrocity. I submit that they have not even come close… Here is what a bit of research got me with the searchterms: Muslims protest Russian school.

 

Surely I should find many Muslim marching in the streets of this hijacking of their peaceful and loving religion right? Wrong! Not a single fucking protest! Not one!

 

Here are the things that Muslims do feel are worth marching against. Hijabs. Evangelism. Kidnapping the French (but anyone else is ok). Lastly, Infidels in shrines. These are the issues that get Muslims out in the streets. Not slaughtered children.

 

          Of course this can be explained by Muslim apologists who say that obviously the killers in Russia were Jews. Naturally I can count on Islamonline to blame Russian tactics instead of the actual hostage takers.

 

 

          The discussion on shianews.com seemed to at least have a few sane folks but they were mixed in with loons or non-comittals. Some Quotage below:

 

 

It is the most barbaric act anyone can do. Killing children!!!!!!! I pray to Allah to kill these terrorists.
Saima
India

 

May Allah (SWT) curse the enemies of Islam and may these terrorists be wiped out from the earth with the re-appearence of our saviour, Al Mehdi (A.S)!!!
Leila
Australia

 

What happened in Iraq, when 12 Nepalese hostages were murdered in cold blood, is a more horrific crime than what happened in Beslan. I say so, because unlike what the Russian government would like us to believe, it might have been the case that they brought the catastrophe on themselves.

 

Qasim Zaidi
India

 

 

Moderate Islam? I think not.

4,362 views 35 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Greywar,
I didn't go protesting int he streets against the school killings. It doesn't mean that I was not shocked and disgusted. Did you? Why should you expect a muslim to do something you didn't? You're turning a sickening terrorist offense into anti muslim feelings. Stop it!
The civil war in Checknya is more about a civil war than a muslim v orthodox conflict. You should therefore have narrowed your search to see if anyone in Chechnya, the very country these terrorists claim to represent, protested against the masaccre. And you will notice that there have been a number of protests in Grozny over the past few days against the hostage taking.

Paul.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top

Why should you expect a muslim to do something you didn't?

 

How about because it was muslims that did it? Next question...

 

Additionally I proved earlier that the insurgency in Chechneya is Islamist in nature here... Do your research and then come back.

My protest is right here on this blog folks and also at my work. Every day we actively combat these fucktards. The warnings I am putting on here are for the Muslim community's benefit. There is only so long that the world will leave the rest of you out of it. Stand up and take back your religion.

WindowBlinds - Free yourself of the default settings, customize your desktop.
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top

this is  a link to an la times article that describes how russian troops rounded up and held chechen leaders' families during the first day of the school siege.  Link


there appears to be nothing resembling moral high ground.  once again the question is which is worse?  and the answer is neither. 

Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
this is a link to an la times article that describes how russian troops rounded up and held chechen leaders' families during the first day of the school siege.


Please tell me you're not trying to point to this as justification for murdering hundreds of Russian children.
How did they further their cause? All they did was make the Russians as angry at them as "most" of the US is at Al-qaeda.
They can bank on there being only two words on Putin's mind right now "payback time" - and rightfully so.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
didn't go protesting int he streets against the school killings. It doesn't mean that I was not shocked and disgusted. Did you? Why should you expect a muslim to do something you didn't?


If the terrorists had claimed to be Christian, YES, I'd have marched until my feet bled.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
this is a link to an la times article that describes how russian troops rounded up and held chechen leaders' families during the first day of the school siege. Link


there appears to be nothing resembling moral high ground. once again the question is which is worse? and the answer is neither.


kingbee,

Where's the followup article showing when the Russian troops slaughtered the families in cold blood after the children were slaughtered in the school? OH, WAIT...there's NOT one, is there?
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
Nice to see the Shia sect slamming on wahhabis and even accusing them of being supported and directed by Jews.
It must change or the rest of the world might even get fed up enough to do something about it. And if they do it will not be pretty.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top

the answer is neither.

Gabriel summed it up nicely. One side slaughtered kids and the other didn't. Kingbee you can do better than this. Moral equivalency on these two issues just makes you seem retarded.

Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
Here is an update. You know that thing we of the Vast Right Wing Anti-Muslim-or-Whatever Conspiracy like to call research.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top

Please tell me you're not trying to point to this as justification for murdering hundreds of Russian chil

of course not.  there is no justification whatsoever.   nor is there any justification for what russia has done to chechnya over the past 150 years. 

Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Greywar,
You claimed to have proven that the insurgency in Chechnya was islamist in nature. You even provide links to articles showing this. But all you have done is provided links to some articles showing that Chechnya is largely a muslim republic fighting for the right to form a seperate state from Russia. You shut out and belittled any comments that suggested the desire for statehood was the important issue here. That's not proof. It's nowhere near proof. It's your opinion.

Let's look at the actual facts we can agree on.

Chechnya is a region within Russia with a population of almost 1 million.
It is primarily sunni muslim with a sizeable christian population
It has been very badly treated by the russians with almost half the entire population deported to siberian work camps during communism.
It decalred independence in 1917 to be conquered in 1923.
In 1944 Stalin deports hundreds of thousands for helping the Germans against the russians.
In 1991 it decalres independce from RUssia (along with 14 other regions like Ukarine)
Russia refuses to recognise independence and invades
Lawlessness increases with armed param,ilitary bands as Russia still threathens to invade and refuses to recognise independence
Russia again invades in 1995
Russia agree ceasefire in 1996 and withdraws after 70,000 caualties on both sides.
Chechnya still refuses to accept Russian authority and demands independence
Russia incades again with overwhelming force in 1999
Chechnya turns to terrorism with first bombings in 1999
War continues with rebels withstanding Russian attacks in mountainous regions
In 2003 Chechnyans vote in a constitution for independence

Do you disagree with any of these facts?
If not then how can you insist that this conflict is about religion? It's not. It's about freedom. Yes there are undoubtably religious fanatics in Chechnya, but that does not make the conflict a religious one. It is far too easy to perpetrate religion intolerance by blaming any conflict on religion. Take northern Ireland for example. Do you for one second believe the IRA was fighting because of religion?

Also please note that my original reply pointed out to you that there were marches against the terrorist in the Chechnyan capital of Grozny. These were protests by Muslim people who are fighting against Russia. Yet they were willing to show solidarity against attrocities committed in their name. You conveniently ignored this.

Paul.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top

Gabriel summed it up nicely. One side slaughtered kids and the other didn't. Kingbee you can do better than this. Moral equivalency on these two issues just makes you seem retarded.

i believe you mean gideon.  hopefully hell still he around to read this as well.

there are times i wish i was retarded because it would permit me a much simpler world view in which every incident existed independent of history.   it would also enable me to ignore the possibility you arent familar with the past 150 years of tsarist, stalinist and the 'enlightened' russian republic's attempts to destroy chechnya's people in order to maintain their hold on the place.  it's difficult for me to imagine thats the case because of the nzz online link you posted elsewhere.

while it doesnt describe the russian conquest of chechnya in the 1850s or the chechen's almost continual attempts to win back their independence since then--attempts that prompted brutal tsarist retribution,  bolshevik occupation and stalin's purge of chechnya following ww2 (during which as many as 800,000 chechens were deported to siberia, 100,000 of whom died in the process)--that article's coverage of events that transpired after chechnya  tried to extricate itself from russian dominance (as did  other former ussr entities) seems accurate and objective.

hopefully you didnt gloss over the aftermath of the russia's first two unsuccessful attemps to retain control.  had russia not left chechenya in ruins--both physically and economicaly--hoping to eventually benefit from its instability, there likely would not have been a power vacuum for radical islam to exploit.  islam doesnt seem to have been a major factor in chechnya's previous attempts to liberate itself (if anything, the extreme violence inflicted upon the chechens may have been justified in part by russian christian anti-muslim hatred).  one need only look to other former ussr muslim client states like uzbekistan and kazakhstan by way of comparison and contrast.

as i pointed out in one of my recent articles, putin's rise to power owes much to the perception he would be ruthless in dealing with chechnya.  yeltsin and putin are as much responsible for the rise of radical islam in chechnya as any crazed mullah.  that doesnt mitigate any of the actions of the chechens but it does put them in perspective.

as to the little green football chapter of the Vast Right Wing Anti-Muslim-or-Whatever Conspiracy, i agree with the general consensus regarding radical islam.  while ridiculing islamist revisionist nonsense such as the crew roster of columbus' expeditions, those of yall solidly supporting a  president who equivocates creationism with science while sending american troops abroad to help sistani establish his islamic republic of iraq (inadvertantly but what difference does that make?) --and a national political party that requires its nominees to be annointed by the mullahs and ayatollahs of evangelical extremism-- would be well advised to remember the proverb about people who live in glass chapels.

Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top

To solitair and kingbee who would justify these acts due to the history of the region, i recommend this article...to take a look at the history of this "peaceful" religion in general.


if you read what i wrote youd see that i wasnt apologizing or justifying anything.  what could be more clear than to say three times (3 count em) in this thread that there was no justification or mitigation?  nor am i supporting any butchers on either side.   

if you dont believe russia fertilized the chechen soil with enough blood to fertilize the seeds of radical islamist hatred, please check the nzz document greywar provided to someone else here Link.


as far as the bereancall site goes, check your muslimhate post.  i left ya one that links to an article proposing to prove that the heretical catholic church is inexorably bound to islam because they both believe in a false jesus.  i also liked the newsletter on that site that said y2k preparations were paving the way for the antichrist.   

Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top

I did


different article.  this one dates back to 2000.  i just edited my earlier reply and added the link.

Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
How about because it was muslims that did it? Next question...


Like when you protested when some whiteboy Timothy McVeigh bombed a building that included childcare facilities...

Hate away greywar.

BAM!!!
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top

Like when you protested when some whiteboy Timothy McVeigh bombed a building that included childcare facilities...

I did protest that you ass. How the fuck would you know what I did back then? I joined the intelligence services to stop shit like this and I have been doing it for 13 fucking years. You are total jackass and now (finally) blacklisted. Go fuck yourself.

i believe you mean gideon

Yes I did mean gideon actually (it is the trumpet thing)

       I disagree with your rationale that acts decades in the past equate to excusing or even mitigating the murder of children in the present. So since my Irish ancestors were treated like crap I would not be faulted as a disgusting monster if I whacked 300 English school kids? That is farsical Kingbee and it is moral equivalency arrguments like this that lose credibility for the left. History is not an excuse for murder ever. If it was we would have simply nuked Khandahar after 9/11.

 

 

Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top

Do you for one second believe the IRA was fighting because of religion?

yes! and they are shitheaded terrorist scum as well. Fuck em

Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top

I disagree with your rationale that acts decades in the past equate to excusing or even mitigating the murder of children in the present.

could i have more clearly denied any mitigation than this?  that doesnt mitigate any of the actions of the chechens but it does put them in perspective  or this? of course not.  there is no justification whatsoever

this is a direct quote from that nzz article: the problem of Islamism, around which serious fighting broke out starting in the summer of 1998. After the war, even secularly inclined Chechens welcomed the state-sponsored renaissance of Islam as a means of strengthening the republic's national identity. But, influenced by Muslim preachers from the Middle East, extremist ideas quickly spread, ideas which had been utterly alien to the region just a few years earlier.

yeltsin's hawks, putin prime among them, have used the ensuing chaos to strengthen their power at the expense of both the russian and chechen peoples. recognizing russian government culpability does not by any means justify chechen terrorism.  as i said in my first comment on this post, there is no high ground here.  if i feed someone psychoactive drugs,  arm that person and point out a target, im as guilty as he for what happens next. . just ask charlie manson.

it is moral equivalency arrguments like this that lose credibility for the left.

once again, im not attributing moral equivalency; just widening the circle of culpability.  i cant imagine why youre viewing this in terms of left vs right.  its not a matter that should be politicized or polarized that way.

Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
(it is the trumpet thing)

  makes perfect sense to me

Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top

if i feed someone psychoactive drugs, arm that person and point out a target, im as guilty as he for what happens next. . just ask charlie manson.

     No one fed these guys drugs. No one mad ethem do anything excpet their leaders who are you mentioned in your quote are Islamists. The entire point of the article was to demonstrate that once again the Muslim community at large can't even bring itself to condemn the killing of children. Instead of giving their own cause credibility they instead lash out at the Russian government. This is simple dislogia on the part of the Muslim community. It is liek the serial killer who when asked the question " Why did you kick those women to death?" answers "You know I wear really soft shoes." They can't bring themselves to address the core issue at hand so they deflect onto other tangentially related topics. This thread is a prime example of that. The article was about the lack of Muslim reaction from beginning to end and all the replies have been deflections.

     The bottom line is that a scarf will get the Moderate Muslim into the streets but the slaughtered schoolkids won't.

 

its not a matter that should be politicized or polarized that way.

you are correct and I apologize for that, it has simply become habit for me during this election year.

Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
greywar,
which part of my describing the incident as sickening and my disgust and shock did you miss when you decided to accuse me of justifying these acts? Let me be clear here that the incident was absolutely awful and I hope the russians execute those that are responsible. There is NO justification or excuse for those actions or any attacks against innocent civilians. There is no mitagation for the level of the crime.

This is very different from objecting to you turning a political incident into a religious incident though. You do not seem to understand that thios is the point I disagree with.

I really do not understand where your hatred of muslims is coming from here greywar. Why do you insist on ignoring all evidence of political motivation to try to turn this into a religious motivated incident? It was not. It was an anti-russian incident. You're willing to ignore all evidence of political motive and also all evidence of muslims actually protesting against this, just so that you can muslim bash. Why? Why can you not condemn it as a horrible crime that many people in muslim countries also condemn? Including people inthe very country the terrorists claim to be fighting for.

Paul.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
This is very different from objecting to you turning a political incident into a religious incident though


How is it not a religious incident if one of the quintessential postulates of the Chechen separatist movement is the creation of an Islamic theocratic state?
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
Little Whip,
I come from Ireland and can tell you that a Christian heart is well capable of bombing children in packed streets. Even wors, it takes thousands of Christian hearts in the US to fund this terrorism. These generalisations are nothing but racism. It takes a warped sick individual to do any of these things regradless of religious affiliation and the sooner people realise this the better. Lets stop being racist here and focus on the sickness in individuals.

As mentioned in Gid's post the figures presented are very interesting but do have some important biases in what is included as domestic or international which skew the figures. Not a single state killing is included as terrorism.

In Chechnya, the separist leader Aslan Maskhadov (the ex-president) himself condemned the killings. Does he not count?

Paul.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
Mack,
there is a crucial difference between a religious incident and the desire for an islamic state. In northern Ireland the IRA claim to be protecting catholics. Does this make the murder of protestants a religious incident? No. It makes it a sick case of terrorism and one which I would not fling at the door of the protestant religion.
Why do people refuse to give the same equal treatment to muslims. Chechnya did NOT want an islamic theocratic state. It wanted independence from russia as a democratic country. It declared independence and elected a president; Religion was not a player in politics. It's only been the brutal oppression over the past decade that has allowed Islamic fundamentalists to flourish. Even now it is not a religious war. The leader of the Chechnyans (the elected president) himself has condemned the killing of children. He doesn't want an islamic theocratic state.
No this was a sick terrorist incident inspired by a hatred of Russia.

Paul.
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
Paul,

state killings aren't mentioned, but there's no reason to believe state killings aren't at least as prevalent in Muslim countries--do those get excused from the umbrella of terrorism or are they reasonable to include? The fact is, many Muslim countries are very high on the watch list of human rights groups, telling me something's got to be wrong there.

I'm getting the feeling you're one of those who would argue if someone told you the sky is blue...I tossed out some pretty hard statistics, and you are trying to spin them towards your analysis of the sunny rosy world of happy al Qaeda guys who are forced into blowing up buildings by the cruel tyrannical west.