"Salamader, what do you say to some of your more illustrious fellow citizens (e.g., BHL or Revel) who describe anti-Americanism in France as a kind of national illness? Is there anything to this? "

Well I just finished reading Revel's last book "the Anti American Obsession" a couple of weekes ago, and i can confirm that what he says is true. there definetly is an anti american sentiment in france, however i think we can blame this on 2 things:
-French Medias (dominated by the left, big time)
-the french political, and intellectual classes.

this makes your average french fellow quite uninformed or rather misinformed of what the US are about.
For example one can quite easily point out the fact 40% of americans have no healthcare cover, but they'll never look into the reason why that is so, we'll have reports about this or that in america, but never the straight facts and their reasons.
so obviously a strong impression that the US are going to hell as developped in france, to the satisfaction of the political classes who feed on this sentiment to warn of the "danger's of ultra-liberalism" (economic liberalism that is).

it allows them to instill a fear of the future into the french population, while dissipating the blames they should be subjected to.
i could further devellop this point and talk about the "cultural exception" which most french do not really care about and so on...
all that to say that in the great scheme of things your average american fellow and french fellow would in fact get on pretty well together it it wasn't for a linguistic barreer, and the deeprooted socialist leanings instilled by the socialist left for the past 30 years (well i could devellop this as well as there are other reasons, but this is the major factor).

Oh man, that's how you score Sheryl Crow? By brushing your teeth, showering, and using deoderant? Darn, so that is what I was doing wrong all these years!


They also found a white towel but mistook it for evidence that he was about to quit.

For example one can quite easily point out the fact 40% of americans have no healthcare cover,

Sheesh, even John Kerry doesn't put it that high!

For all those interested in the complete military history of the French Military, have a good laugh at this site. http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html

lol Snobisme . you are ridiculous: middle age was full of wars in europe and if you fall back in antique its sure you gonna find lot more. If you have a brain, in a discussion you look the both side: win and lost. I m sure i can do the same with usa easy lol.
My conclusion on you ppl is that at the exeption of bakerstreet, your are not able or open too a discussion.

Salamandre:

"For irak we immediatly understood that it was for oil. "

I suggest you look into your nation's relationship with Hussein. Chirac began his political career rubbing cheeks with Hussein, and your nation was a major economic and military supporter of him right up to the invasion. I think the past year has shown that we aren't there for oil, but even if we were...

Which do you think is more evil, removing an evil dictator responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in the name of Halliburton, or fattening him and empowering him in the name of TotalFinaElf so he can stay in power? Your nation stood to make billions keeping a patently evil dictator in power, and it was one of the main opponents to removing Hussein in the first Gulf War.

I really don't mean to offend, though it may appear so. Many of us just feel very strongly that the French people are easily as brainwashed about Iraq as US citizens, if not more. Your nation was one of the main columns holing up a horrible tyrant, all in the name of money, and then you claim we are removing him in the name of money.

You can see how this is puzzling.

hehehehe. Accurate or not, Salamandre, SnobIsMe's link is pretty funny.

'The First Rule of French Warfare; "France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman." '
'The Second Rule of French Warfare; "France only wins when America does most of the fighting." '

Well worth a read.

Aw,c'mon n lighten up.

That comment was to Salamandre. This is not a serious discussion.

Excellent post CS.

But let me ask you this: How is it you can get away with this post, but when I create a post about the qualities of Jewish comedians that I would like to see in our President or Presidential Candidate, I get ripped a new one and called a "racist prick"?

Perhaps your standing here is more credible. At least your responses were "kind".

LLs

"Chirac began his political career rubbing cheeks with Hussein" going in your direction i think it was before Chirac. One more time i admit that our both country arent clean. You know in france there is lot and lot of discussion about irak. All you have said (chirac support and all before ) have be put in the public place ( res publica in latin ). But our impression here is that in USA there is not enough debat, the impression that only ppl for the war talk and the other shut up.Did you believed in mass dest weapon ? i hope not.
. Perhaps just a false impression, a mistake of us.
"the French people are easily as brainwashed about Iraq as US citizens" no offense - no probleme; - i just repeat that here there was (is) lot of discussion about that: all was eposed : ally burton as total finna elf - lafayette as WWII - Give freedom as fail to give freedom and set a civil war etc.

"I think the past year has shown that we aren't there for oil, but even if we were..." : the first thing secured: oil - and at this day its ever controlled by us forces and the reconstruction is paid with oil. - but my major problem with oil is that long before the war there was a fu...g embargo on this country, an embargo that have killed lot of ppl : oil vs food and medication.
It s not a way to make fall a tyrant. I think the opinion they have of occident is very affected by ten year ( about ) of this embargo that haven t affected the tyran, if that have not made him more popular in irak : "u see the evil it s not me it s occident ! "
Even, i think there is no evil, just ppl with different culture, goals. Someone is ever the evil of someone else... And at the end the evil is the one who lost the war ( so there no evil for having drop nukes on hiroshima and nagasaki for exemple, with no trial . (thats just an exemple not an attaque )).
Friendly.

Wathever iraki war, this story begin long before like you siad too.
I wanna know if when u tlak about berrets, saop, backbone i dont know what,surrender monkeys, in wich % you are serious. Or it is just jokes like here we make jokes on belgium ppl.
Something make me laugh, in hollywood films, each time there is a movie who take part in france we can see cars from 30 years ago, ppl with berret etc. Do you believe we still are at this point or it is just joke?
Who of you have come in france?

To Salamandre(Anonymous User)

If you look at the top of CS Guy's aricle, you will see that the "Dicussion" is in the category of "Humor". So, of course it is not to be taken seriously. It is merely the humorous perception that Americans have had of the French since WWII.

I'm American, but my ethnic background is Polish. The American humorous perception of Poles is that we are all idiots and have holes in our foreheads from learning how to eat with a fork. I laugh at Polish jokes, the American humorous perception of Poles, as much as the next person. I do not take offense to it. It is merely good-natured "ribbing" - not in anyway intended to offend.

Some of the people who have replied may have taken offense and replied in a serious manner.

LLS

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Salamandre: For a lot of people the animosity toward the French is a propaganda, knee-jerk kind of thing. I've tried to offer you a perspective on why we feel the way we do. I don't expect to cause you to have animosity to your own country, only to show you that this isn't just ignorant, superficial nationalism.

I appreciate your perspective, but it really sounds like the same shopping list of practiced gripes we hear from people who read a lot of propaganda. Much of it, like the WMD question, has been addressed over and over.

What I think you should understand from this is that the animosity toward the French isn't due to Iraq, or France's refusal to allow Reagan to use their airspace, etc. These are just peaks in what is a brewing animosity, and that is to due a consistant, generations-old attitude that the US is somehow less cultured, less intelligent, and less relevant than France. It is also born from instances like Vietnam, where the US suffered great embarassment, and which was essentially a French mess in the first place.

You have to understand that while our nations are probably equal in our mistakes and international excesses, the perception here is that the French see themselves as inherantly superior. I appreciate you being so equitable, but in the end though our mistakes are equitable, France seems to think that our cultures aren't.

But let me ask you this: How is it you can get away with this post, but when I create a post about the qualities of Jewish comedians that I would like to see in our President or Presidential Candidate, I get ripped a new one and called a "racist prick"?

It's not all about you.

If you look at the top of CS Guy's aricle, you will see that the "Dicussion" is in the category of "Humor". So, of course it is not to be taken seriously.

Exactly, Lenbert.  And that is why I am avoiding any serious discussion of the topic.  Also I'm having difficulty reading the posts of our French commentor, and considering the miniscule amount of thought that went into this article (it is just a copy/paste issue) I don't feel like spending more than a second or two reading any reply.

Of course, if BakerStreet wants to use my site for a serious discussion of the issue, then more power to him.  I am a point whore after all.

, sorry.

I just think that most people in Europe see the jokes and the angst and think that it is blind, ignorant hate. With a Frenchmen willing to talk it looked like an opportunity to let at least one of them know that many of us with bias have it for real, well-considered reasons.

Not that it will change anything. Didn't mean to get all serious on ya. I just figured it might do someone, somewhere some good to see the thought behind the humor.

Well, we DO learn to SPELL by age 15.And I would put my intelligence against ANY French person's with the same number of years of schooling.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? He's arguing quite articulately for his point of view, while all of you dismiss his points "because you've heard them before," well maybe you heard them but you didn't listen, like you're not listening now. And he's arguing in English, which isn't even his primary language, try being as articulate arguing with him in French, with perfect French spelling. To pick at his spelling is just low.

I've been living in this country for 12 years now, and I have to tell you, Americans, of which I am now one, are some of the most mean-spirited people I have ever met. You truly call the constant French-bashing I hear "just kidding around?" It's incredibly hurtful and rude, not to mention incredibly monotonous and boring, same exact attacks over and over. On top of that, I don't think any other country has a bigger commonly believed list of stereotypes, often based on nothing at all, or extremely circumstancial evidence.

And you speak of the French people being easily brainwashed or manipulated? What about the storms of Americans who boycotted AMERICAN restaurants because they served French fries at the start of this Iraq crap? "French fries" aren't even French! As far as I know, no other culture attaches the French prefix anyway. Same sort of garbage with French toast or even AMERICAN companies with the words "France" or "French" in them.

Frankly, maybe the French are the meanest, most xenophobic and downright awful people on Earth, I wouldn't know, I've never been to France, but I have lived in America for over half my life, and I am almost positive that "the average American" is no better than you make the French out to be. I'm just glad all of my friends are far from "average."

One good way nations develop goodwill toward each other is by helping one another when needed. U.S. always sending help in a disaster. Money, clothes, blankets, food.water. or shelter. Right now as I write this, the damage from hurricane Charlie is absolutely astounding! I wonder how many nations will step up and offer to help the U.S. in any way or form. Usually not!! Especially not France. Why do we ALWAYS help? Maybe we are different.

interesting point, but from what I have observed (as imperfect as those observations may be) it is usually economically stronger countries sending help to countries that lack the infrastructure to deal with those catastrophes. Japan sends teams to countries who have suffered from earthquakes because they have a lot of experience and techniques to deal with it (also for research). Canada often helps with international aid. I only use these two countries as examples because I have lived there.

I think that the world consideres the american economy and infrastructure strong enough to deal with the crisis (as devastating as it is). As well, I think that if the US government asked for help, other countries would. Maybe the US is different in this area, but certainly not alone.

France has the lowest average I.Q score of any industrialized nation.

Are they an industrialized nation? Kidding.

Well ...

The official poverty rate in 2003 was 12.5 percent in USA (35.9 million people), up from 12.1 percent in 2002.

USA industrialized nation too ?

Je souris sagement ...