Israel and Palestine

How did the Iraq war weaken Middle Eastern countries?

Surely knowing that Israel actually HAS nuclear weapons is the most obvious threat in the middle east right now?

A threat to Syria maybe, but not the US or Europe.

Is it likely that Bush (who expresses his faith openly), might actually be assisting Israel rather than spreading democracy, stability, peace, oil, money or regime change in the Middle East?

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East last time I checked.

The roadmap to peace by George Mitchell and others lays out a plan for achieving peace. It stalled when the Palestinian Authority could not compel or convince terrorist groups like Hamas to agree to a cease fire.

Israel is the only democracy

How do you have a democracy where one set of citizens are considered second class--and that is not even mentioning the occupied territories? Israel claims to be a democracy, but in reality, doesn't come close.

There are tons of conspiracy theories out there about why the US has a special relationship with Israel...my favorite was the one where the religious right was having secret meetings trying to ensure the existance of Israel under peace because that would pave the way for the second coming--um, yea, sure...whatever.

In reality though, the pro-Israel lobby in the US is extremely strong. Being pro-Palestinian is not very fashionable, and militant Hamas and Islamic Jihad don't help the cause by blowing anyone up. In fact, any sympathy that the western world might be inclined to give is evaporated when these actions occur.

What can be done? Unfortunately, at this point, I'm all out of answers.

Madine: Thans for the quick reply. I am of the impression that nuclear war is a threat to the entire world, not just to neighbouring countries.

As for how the middle east has been weakened: Iraq is no longer a regional power. Many of the Arab states would have joined forces if Israel were to launch a strike. Iran has seen a key threat disappear. It has also seen the Americans triumphant on its doorstep which must at least be indirectly threatening. Syria has lost a major trading partner and a counterbalance in military power to Israel. Syrians will probably see the US victory as anti-Arab, especially as there will be US forces next door for the first time.

Shadesofgrey: The second coming was kind of what I was geting at. It has been mentioned in a few books / articles I have read. There are certain things which have to be in place for it to happen. Israels enlargement, peace time etc. I know... too "conspiracy" to be true... isn't it? but lets not forget - isnt this what true Jews and Christians truly believe?

Unfortunately you're looking at very, very complicated issue, the Palestinian conflict goes back farther than anyone cares to remember (1000's of years). I'm guessing that it started over disputes over land and shrines, but now has just turned into plain fighting because that's all they know. As far as the issue of why doesn't America do something, we have spent decades trying different peace accords going back to Yitzak Rabin who signed the Oslo Accord and was asassinated by his own people. The U.S tries to help but no one wants to give up anything. As far as Israel goes, it's the only stabilizing force in the Middle East through the use of Detente. I just scratched the surface of this issue but I was just trying to stick to your original subject.

There are tons of conspiracy theories out there about why the US has a special relationship with Israel...my favorite was the one where the religious right was having secret meetings trying to ensure the existance of Israel under peace because that would pave the way for the second coming--um, yea, sure...whatever. In reality though, the pro-Israel lobby in the US is extremely strong. Being pro-Palestinian is not very fashionable, and militant Hamas and Islamic Jihad don't help the cause by blowing anyone up. In fact, any sympathy that the western world might be inclined to give is evaporated when these actions occur.

I think you hit it head on. I think Israel does have a strong voice, but not necessarily because of any conspiracy or even due to bad intentions. For example, here in Canada The National Post and CanWest groups of newspapers have strong influence coast to coast here in Canada. The National Post and its parent company Southam were sold by Conrad Black to the highest bidder, who happened to be a Jewish fellow named Izzy Asper who owned CanWest, an existing media firm. He died recently and his sons now run it.

Why did Izzy buy the National Post? He's a former tax lawyer who invested his money in media holdings and made a killing. In other words, he earned it., he didn't wrest control with help from the Freemasons. While the National Post may have a pro-Israeli slant, no one is preventing Muslim Canadians from stepping into bidding wars for large media holdings that hit the market. And no one is preventing them from hiring a decent PR person if they have a valid concern to raise.

There is equally compelling anectdotal evidence that the Saudi goverment has a friendly relationship with current and former State Department officials. So both sides buy the access they can, and are both guilty.

I understand the use of nukes as a deterent ("gentlemen, you cant fight in here - this is the war room!") but I think its fair to say that the Middle East has not been peaceful just because Israel is there and has bigger bombs than everyone else. In fact, the middle east seems to be constantly at war. Israel is definitley not peace-keeping at the moment.

The specific issue with Israel has started much more recently (either since 1923 when Palestine was split, 1947 when the British turned the problem over to the UN, 1948 when Israel was established or 1967 when Egypt, Gaza and Syria were defeated by Israel depending on which way you look at it).

I am aware that there was tension (understatement) in the area before then, but it wasnt until Jewish settlers really started to move to Palestine (or the Palestinian state) that trouble really started - perhaps due to the area being almost unihabitable before then.

This subject is very difficult to handle and I "change sides" with almost everything I read. I wouldnt like to be in a position to really do something about it.

How do you have a democracy where one set of citizens are considered second class--and that is not even mentioning the occupied territories? Israel claims to be a democracy, but in reality, doesn't come close.

African-Americans were treated as second-class citizens or worse for nearly 200 years of America's existence. America has also occupied territory. You are correct in pointing out some of the moral shortcomings in Israel, but that does not disqualify them from being a democracy.

In reality though, the pro-Israel lobby in the US is extremely strong. Being pro-Palestinian is not very fashionable, and militant Hamas and Islamic Jihad don't help the cause by blowing anyone up. In fact, any sympathy that the western world might be inclined to give is evaporated when these actions occur.

There is widespread support for Israel in the US; it's not just lobbyists. TMK, being pro-Palestinian is fashionable in Europe.

am of the impression that nuclear war is a threat to the entire world, not just to neighbouring countries.

I would agree that nuclear war is a threat to the whole world, but not that possession of nuclear weapons is a threat to the whole world.

Iraq is no longer a regional power.

Iraq stopped being a regional power in the 1990's. I don't think they even had a functional military aircraft prior to the US invasion.

In reality though, the pro-Israel lobby in the US is extremely strong.

Can you explain a little more what these "lobby" groups are, and what powers they actually have? Its not something I am really familiar with.

Iraq stopped being a regional power in the 1990's. I don't think they even had a functional military aircraft prior to the US invasion.

So why did we think they posed such a risk recently enough to have to go to war with them a second time?

There is widespread support for Israel in the US; it's not just lobbyists. TMK, being pro-Palestinian is fashionable in Europe.

Why is there widespread support? What reasons do people personally have to support something happening so far away from them? We get different news to you here (thankfully!). I dont think many people here, at least in the UK, consider it fashionable to support either side. Most people are quite open to debate, and are keen to look at the facts for themselves. Is it common for Americans to have widespread views on international affairs? How much do people honestly know about the situation?

The problem with the Palestinian people is that they have no leader and will not support any leader over them. All they want is some figure like Arafat or one of the Hamas leaders to funnel money to there organizations. It's like a bunch of mob bosses running things in the middle east. And the Bosses like it the way it is because they have power and are getting rich. If I'm wrong give some facts that show they want to live in peace. Like it or not America was founded on Judeo-Christian values, not the Quran. What other countries don't realize is that America is the most tolerant country (overall), but they still hate us. I live in California near San Francisco I know about diversity

I think part of the support for the Palestinian people comes from ignorance. I have talked to people who believed that Palestine was a nation that the Israelis stormed in and took by force. They don't realize that the UN itself was responsible for the creation of Israel.

Israel and the Palestinian terrirories have always been property of some other power, all the way back to the Romans. When the Palestinians finally decide to live peacefully beside Israel, it will be as "new" as creating Israel was in the first place.

In the end I have to look at the simple fact that if Israel wasn't threatened, they wouldn't be attacking anyone. All the "aggression" are really responses. Sure, they are pretty belligerant responses, but it isn't like people aren't aware that they respond that way. Yet they still attack them, over and over.

The majority of attacks are on and around the time of peace talks. Very telling. Terrorist organizations are huge businesses now, millions changing hands in every form of currency. They are like a cult, with masses of brainwashed believers and a few abusive, evil folks at the top. They want the Palestinian people right where they are, hungry, homeless and angry. Hard to get people to go blow themselves up, otherwise, and without a "cause" all their donations dry up.

Some people may see Israel as an aggressor, but I don't. If they were any other Arab country the Palestinians would have been ethnically cleansed 30 or 40 years ago. I just think when you live in a part of the world that holds as a basic tenet the destruction of your nation, you tend to be very defensive. Good for them.

If the Middle East were made up of nations that functioned as Isreal does, it would be a peaceful Middle East. Sadly, people find fault with the only peaceful nation there, and sympathize with killers.

In the end I have to look at the simple fact that if Israel wasn't threatened, they wouldn't be attacking anyone. All the "aggression" are really responses. Sure, they are pretty belligerant responses, but it isn't like people aren't aware that they respond that way. Yet they still attack them, over and over.

I agree 100% with this statement, it's like kids fighting in a schoolyard. Eventually, both kids are so tired they just stop fighting but I guess Israel and the Palestinians aren't to that point yet. God help them

I know I may have sounded like I side with the Palestinians, but I dont. I do however feel that it is Israel who has to make the first move, as the greater power (mostly thanks to US aid) it needs to kick start the peace process again.

If the Palestinians are not going to, which seems fair enough to say, then the only other option is the eradication of the entire Palestinian popultaion - and thankfully that aint ever gonna happen!

Its also a generalisation that the Palestinians dont want a leader. Im sure masses of them want peace and democracy - though I havent asked them personally. They are not really in a position to elect someone at the moment. Why dont we "regime change" them, like we did Iraq?

Education is the only true way forward, but then how do you educate people in this situation?

BakerStreet - I agree to what you are saying, but its also unfair to treat todays Palestinians in the same way as previous generations. Many of them were born in to this situation, and its Israel now who holds most of the cards - or at least the best ones.

If new generations grow up in conflict, particularly where Israel attacks (even in retaliation) and kills relatives and friends of potential terrorists then that is much more likely what those "potentials" will become. It must be VERY difficult growing up in Palestine, and not resenting Israel.

"Turn the other cheek" I think a Jew from that area was once heard to say. While not especially easy in this age of "pre-emptive strikes" and "suicide bombers", I think there is something to be said about that method.

think part of the support for the Palestinian people comes from ignorance

Bakerstreet...if you really think that support from Palestine comes from ignorance, then I urge you to read my thread called "Failure." I hope you will agree that I am not ignorant. However, as with all cases of ethnic conflict, history is manipulated to serve the purpose of the side best able to spin it. I disagree with your take on the Middle East, but I wouldn't be so bold as to call you ignorant. Simply because we do not hold the same point of view does not mean that either of us is less informed about the situation.

You need to research this issue to greater depth. As part of the Camp David Accords, I believe, Eqypt also gets 3 Billion per year from America - mutual incentives for peace, as it were. This is not a one sided issue.

Please also note that Israel is a democracy, a form of government which we do favor (is that a surprise?) and while many Americans do not concur to certain acts by the Israeli Government, their democratic form of government buys a great deal of patience and surport from the average American.

Surely, if Israel just gave back the land it seized in the 1967 war, it would get in return peace with its neighbors?

Also, with regards to other countries getting aid from the US:

=======================
According to the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE), from 1949-2001 the U.S. has given Israel a total of $94,966,300,000. The direct and indirect aid from this year should put the total U.S. aid to Israel since 1949 at over one hundred billion dollars. What is not widely known, however, is that most of this aid violates American laws. The Arms Export Control Act stipulates that US-supplied weapons be used only for "legitimate self-defense."
======================= Source = http://www.wrmea.com/html/usaidtoisrael0001.htm

Egypt isnt spending a large sum of its money on offence (unless thats another thing I dont know about!)

Surely, if Israel just gave back the land it seized in the 1967 war, it would get in return peace with its neighbors?

The Arabs do not believe that Israel has a right to exist. Giving back land would only bolster there Arab neighbors cause and give them confidence to push for extermination of the Jewish state.

Referring to the "Six day War" in 1967 is funny because the Arab states surrounding Israel were so overconfident and they actually lost land (Golan Heights, West Bank & Gaza strip) instead of taking Israel's land. According to history when you lose your land in War it's lost forever (with a few exceptions). The Palestinians should move on and make the most out of what they have left, they could in the end lose it all.

"I do however feel that it is Israel who has to make the first move, as the greater power (mostly thanks to US aid) it needs to kick start the peace process again."

Time and again Israel has attended "peace" conferences, and as I said terrorists pick those exact times to attack. I feel sorry for the Palestinian people, I really do, but at this point no amount of "detante" is going to change anything. The utter destruction of these terrorist organizations is the only way to ensure that Israel is left in peace. If neighboring nations support and house them, then the neighboring nations should face destruction.

I'll say it again. Left to itself, Israel would be attacking NO ONE. Even as it stands, Israel has shown great restraint at being constanly harrowed by its neighbors. Now that the world as a whole is concerned with terrorism, instead of turning a blind eye to it as they did for the decades that it was an "Israeli" problem, now we can start to dissect these organizations from the top down.

Palestinians and their terrorist handlers have spit opportunity after opportunity back into Israel's face. The time may soon come that there are no more opportunities. If a nation is living peacefully, even after years of constant provocation, I believe they are owed a lot of credit for what peace there is.

Militant, fundamentalist Islam is much of the problem. I would suggest reading the "Islam a peaceful religion??" discussion. The conflict with Israel has a great deal to do with the fact that even mainstream Islam in the Middle East refuses to accept the idea that Isreal has a right to exist.

Bakerstreet........it's funny because i'm not sure if I like you or dislike you. I'm not sure what side of the arguement your on sometimes I think you agree with me and sometimes i'm not sure...........But I guess that's why blogging is fun

I'm pretty honestly conflicted, lol. If I had been alive after WW2, I would have not been in favor of the creation of Israel. Well, I would have at least been at odds with the terms of its creation.

As it stands now, though, 3 generations of people have been born in Israel. These are now "indigenous" Israelis, with as much right to be there as my daughter has to live here in what was once Cherokee land. I don't think you can even ponder the issue of whether Israel should exist, and yet the people that Israel are forced to sit down with have openly stated the destruction of their nation as their chief aim.

To me, you simply can't make peace with these people. They don't want peace, it isn't in their interest. I think the average Palestinian wants peace, and their hands are tied. Perhaps it isn't possible for the Palestinians to sit down with someone like Sharon, either.

It is always going to come back to the fact that Israel is attacked, Israel retaliates. You can't expect them not to, and they aren't "allowed" to attack Syria and Iran and all the other nations that really pull the strings behind the scenes. It is a sad, sad situation, and at its roots lies the hateful tone of fundamentalist Islam as it relates to Israel.

Once people are ready for coextistance, they'll accept it. I am just afraid that it is going to take something on a more global scale to cut the strings of all these Palestinian puppets. When Israel is no longer attacked, then people can address the plight of the Palestinian people. Until then, the issue is terrorism.

Hi Sam

I more or less agree with what you feel. But somehow in all this political landscape of East vs West. Big vs Small. We "humans" have lost somewhere.

The bottom line is that
"Irrespective of color, race, ethnicity , beliefs, status EACH AND EVERY HUMAN BEING HAS GOT THE RIGHT TO LIVE IN PEACE and WITH DIGNITY" . And this right is same for any American, Indian, Iraqi, Israeli.


There are tonnes of faiths in the world. But instead of revelling in the diversity , we bleed and kill each other. Even god would be ashamed of us. In the name of security,politics we kill each other. Why?

If we really want to make a difference

Let us spread hope
Let us give smile
and above all

Let us grow love

bye

PS- my thoughts are in disarray, and grammar ( pathetic ). Kindly bear. I hope i was able to share as what i want to.

Sam....You seem like a very bright person. Yes, there is a conflict in our country and yes it is sparked way to often by interference from other countries, especially the United States. They continue to give "loans" to the state of Israel and expect the Israeli government to stand behind every policy they come up with regarding the middle east. Israel in effect, is nothing but a pawn of the United States government.
The Palestinian Authority has not been as aggreeable to U.S. policies, mainly because the U.S. refuses to even negotiate with them at present. All acts of terrror are blamed on the Palestinian Authority even though most of these acts are taken "credit" for by various terrorist groups. The Palestinian Authority is far from perfect, it is corrupt, it cheats the people it is meant to serve, but this is in no way any worse than the government of Israel which at present is riddled with various scandals involving our prime minister and members of his immediate family.
My personal belief, and hopeful solutionto the present crisis is to get to know our Palestinian neighbours. Get to know them in every way, and have them get to know us. Joint cultural, sport, educational projects are a key to understanding and trust. Both of our peoples have so much in common, only personal interreaction with each other will prove that to each of us.
This is just a few of my thoughts, I'd like to continue this discussion at another time.....byt NO Sam.... there IS something you can do.... just realise that both our peoples, the Israeli and the Palestinian have rights that must be defended. No outside nation must be allowed to medle in our affairs. YOU can pressure the United States government to be fair to both sides, not just the side that owes them money.

To me, you simply can't make peace with these people. They don't want peace, it isn't in their interest. I think the average Palestinian wants peace, and their hands are tied. Perhaps it isn't possible for the Palestinians to sit down with someone like Sharon, either.

Do you think the same could be said for the US government? Obviously they would benefit from peace, but they also benefit from war. As Ocean Colour Scene once sang: "There's no profit in peace boys, so we must fight some more".

There are tonnes of faiths in the world. But instead of revelling in the diversity , we bleed and kill each other. Even god would be ashamed of us. In the name of security,politics we kill each other. Why?

This reminds me of a quote:

"We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another" By Jonathan Swift

Its such a shame but it is obviously true.

My personal belief, and hopeful solution to the present crisis is to get to know our Palestinian neighbours. Get to know them in every way, and have them get to know us. Joint cultural, sport, educational projects are a key to understanding and trust. Both of our peoples have so much in common, only personal interaction with each other will prove that to each of us.

I suppose the new wall is going to make this much harder for everyone. It might stop the suicide bombing, but the Palestinians quality of life will get worse. A sure way to cause further tension. Then, the wall will surely have to come down some day. What then? You still wont get on with your neighbours.

YOU can pressure the United States government to be fair to both sides, not just the side that owes them money.

Unfortunately, I cannot pressure the US in to doing anything. Hell, even Mr. Blair or the UN can't pressure the US in to doing anything! What hope have we when Mr. Bush seems to have no respect for the views of all non-US people. Come to think of it, does he even respect the US people’s views?

So why did we think they posed such a risk recently enough to have to go to war with them a second time?

Because we thought they might manufacture WMDs and give them to terrorists. Another reason to go to war was to end the sanctions without empowering Saddam.

I do however feel that it is Israel who has to make the first move, as the greater power (mostly thanks to US aid) it needs to kick start the peace process again.

Sharon has a plan to dismantle settlements.

Surely, if Israel just gave back the land it seized in the 1967 war, it would get in return peace with its neighbors?

If only it were that simple. One reason Israel took the land in the first place was to put it in better strategic position to defend itself.

The Palestinian Authority has not been as aggreeable to U.S. policies, mainly because the U.S. refuses to even negotiate with them at present. All acts of terrror are blamed on the Palestinian Authority even though most of these acts are taken "credit" for by various terrorist groups.

Was the Palestinian Authority more agreeable when the US negotiated with Arafat? Do you seriously think that terrorist groups in Palestine would be able to operate as effectively as they do without either complicity or gross incompetence from the Palestinian Authority?

Hmm. Not very constructive comments from either Helix or Madine. Why do Americans feel they always have to defend this issue? Im not blaming America for the problem, but due to their continued support of Israel over the years - and the fact that Israel use their weapons quite openly for offence, they should do something about it - not Germany.

A good reason that the rest of the world dont do anything, is that Israel has the full backing of the US. No one wants to upset you guys for obvious reasons.