pakistanisecularist1 pakistanisecularist1

The French Law is justified!

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The French Law is justified!

from JoeUser Forums
Secularism exists in the world in two forms, as an ideology and as a state principle. As a state principle it is more or less present in all modern nation states of the world, including USA, India and to a lesser extent even in Pakistan, which was founded as a secular state but since has defined itself as an Islamic Republic. Secularism as a state principle means non-interference of the state in all matters of religion.

This thus suggests that people are free to follow whatever religious beliefs they might fancy and they wouldn’t be discriminated against as a policy. Now the question of secularism as an ideology is a completely different one, and requires a more in depth understanding of secularism in the parameters of a system as opposed to a principle that it certainly is. France has never made any bones about the fact that it takes secularism to be a state ideology rather than a principle.

Indeed the basis of modern French nationalism is in this ideology. Ever since it rescinded the concordat in 1905, the state in France has increasingly sought to push religion back into the private domain of an individual. Therefore religious symbols of any kind are considered taboo in places of official importance. The aim and objective is to create a French nation based on the time tested principles of Equality, Fraternity and Justice, and I for one agree that this is the only way a cohesive French society can come into existence.

Let us not forget this law is hardly Islam specific. The same law applies to the headgear of Jewish rabbis and the cross of devout Christian majority of France. The Sikhs of France will no longer be wearing their turban, which according to a majority of them is a part of their faith. Yet it is us Muslims led by our retrogressive clergy that have come out in protest against the law. Why? It seems that the current distorted version of our faith thrives on protest. This seems to be the only driving force of a once dynamic faith that has contributed magnificently to the cause of world’s civilization. For the past 20 years Islam has increasingly bogged down in a retrogressive revival that has murdered its original spirit. Hijab is not even a mandatory part of our faith. The Quran clearly asks for modest dress but does not go into details. Yet the entire Islamic world is up in arms against the French law.

Only 6 months ago the French were being praised as an upright nation that stood up against the tyranny of the only super power of the world, and today the French are considered to be the worst oppressors of Islam, all because they laid down the simple principle that no religious symbols, Jewish, Christian, Islamic, Sikh or Hindu can be displayed in a state school or institution? “It is about freedom of choice” scream our most fervent mullahs at the top of their voice.

Yet it is amazing that none of them have spared a thought for the people of Saudi Arabia, where the Burqah is imposed not just in state owned offices and schools, but also in all public places, and where morality is regulated through draconian medieval laws. France has done nothing of the sort. Its very democratic decision has been condemned as by us as an infringement of human rights.

Let us make no mistake about it. Anyone is free to worship, dress, and move about as he/she pleases anywhere in France, so long as it is not on state owned property. In Saudi Arabia, which is the guardian of our faith and tradition, the same rights are out of question. Perhaps the cause of humanity will be better served by non-ideological states that don’t seek to impose norms on its citizens, but that is not the case in the real world. I for one as a Muslim would prefer the French sponsored secularism to the Saudi sponsored Islam as a state ideology.
5,572 views 33 replies
Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top
So depending on the size of the bling-bling, I may or may not be allowed to wear it. Seems way too subjective.


I also don't see how a few dozen students wearing headscarfs are a "bigger threat" to a school's secularism than hundreds wearing crucifixes. I also don't see why a school, even a French one, would need to surrender to religion simply because some of its students are religious. Maybe only American schools are disciplined and secular enough so that they can remain secular and still allow students to do their own thing.

it's not the pressure they are protecting from, but the secural state they are protecting. The French constitution protects this secular statehood and so the state is legally entitled to enforce the ban.


I still don't see how an individual's religious attire and beliefs are a threat to the secularism of a state.

It's worth realsing where this whole issue stems from. French schools have a level of acceptable attire which children must conform to. This attire or uniform is designed to make all student equal, but does take different religions into account with a bandanna option being allowed for thoise who wish to cover their heads. Much research has shown that school uniforms do indeed reduce tensions and pressure between pupils. French schools were having to ban muslim girls who refused to remove their headscarfs for religious reasons. Hence the new law. Paul.


If they already do have uniforms, then it does make sense, although they should get rid of all religious attire, including necklaces, for the sake of secularism.
Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top

I will add one thing to this conversation... there is no denying that there is a special sense of unity and belonging when it comes to the Muslim peoples'... the term 'Muslim' extends beyond what we understand of 'Christian'.... in many ways being a Muslim is synonymous to being a Jew... it denotes ethnic identity almost. As with Israel, in Pakistan it was the fear of the Muslim minority that led to the creation of the state... I don't deny the special sense of unity that Muslims feel for each other... I am a Muslim myself... and Muslim solidarity provided it is to the betterment of this world is a good thing.

However when you come to things like Hijab, and beards, and Burqahs... this is when you allow the Mullahs to jump and usurp the intellectual space in Islam. Hijab was banned by the Turkish Government in the 1960s... because as a Secular but demographically Muslim Nation it could see the spectre of Islamic fundamentalism rising. So let us draw a distinction here... being a Muslim and being an Islamic fundamentalist is not the same thing... and the Hijab is the symbol of Islamic fundamentalism...

Hijab is the step in the door that the Mullahs are looking for. In the Muslim majority countries they will try to make it mandatory... though thankfuly it is unlikely to happen here in Pakistan given our rich South Asian cultural and tolerant tradition of Islam... meanwhile in countries where they are in a minority like the US, they will use and abuse the right of religion to get away with this Hijab nonsense...

The Mullahs should be asked this question right off the bat: 'If you choose to protest against the French Ban... will you do the same against the imposition of Burqah by Saudi Arabia?'

The answer will be no... and the Mullah will stand exposed.
Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top
I see the French law and the Saudi policies as two sides of the same coin. Sure, when there is a central religion the Mullahs can make something 'mandatory', but in nation like France you will have many flavors of Islam. I find it very difficult to believe they could "impose" the Burqah on anyone. They'd just switch to a less fundamentalist church, wouldn't they?

I guess that is my problem with all of it. It is still someone in power telling people what to do concerning their religious expression. It is hard for me to understand how regulating religion ensures freedom of religion. To me it is just a slippery slope toward the kind of system China has.
Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top
The Mullahs should be asked this question right off the bat: 'If you choose to protest against the French Ban... will you do the same against the imposition of Burqah by Saudi Arabia?'


Is Saudi Arabia now the standard France seeks to maintain?
Reply #30 from JoeUser Forums Top
Big difference... Saudi Arabia's law is for everywhere on everyone... The french law is only for state schools and thus an element of choice is maintained...

In any event... I agree with the EU's ruling... furthermore as a Muslim I must add that the only way you will keep the fundamentalist genie in the bottle is by making such laws... Please refer to my previous post.

Reply #31 from JoeUser Forums Top
Again, I don't think schooling is a choice. I would imagine in France, like the US, if you don't send your children to school you have to be accountable for the decision, either by paying for a private school, or educating them yourself.

Do you think children of fundamentalists will get an education more beneficial to secular society in public school, or in a fundamentalist Madressa? Perhaps forcing them out of secular society would make them more open to it, or hate it more?

Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top
I didn't know you as a pakistani secularist were in a position to decided what is Islamic and what is not for those who believe it is Islamic? Can't you see you are doing exactly what you accuse Mullahs of? Dictating your version of Islam to everybody else. So stop telling others what is Islamic and what is not, as if you are some authority we muslims should listen to.
Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top
// If France feels that the Burqahs and Hijabs are counterproductive of national development and creates differences between citizens then I think they have all the right to ban it. //

Well , What would you say if i rephrase your saying as " If Talibans feel that the Burqahs and Hijabs are *productive* of women's honour in their country (Afghanistan) then i think they have all the right to do so !!!

When women are treated as prostitutes in some European countries , some people say , it's the profession they chose themselves , they are free to get naked anywhere anytime. Watch any French fashion magazine or tv channel , you'll see a lot of nakedness . But if some women want to hide their bodies willingly some guys among us start crying oh it's the Mullahs who forced them. By the way who told you in Pakistan and other muslim countries women are forced to wear Burqah or Hijaab ! get your facts straight man ! Travel in the muslim world and ask women themselves.