Cleaning up the middle east

The thugocracies can no longer be tolerated

from JoeUser Forums

There's an old Star Trek episode in which Kirk and crew beam down to a planet that had been influenced by organized crime in Chicago. A whole planet run by organized crime.  It made for a kind of silly episode since the concept was so absurd.

And yet much of the population in the middle east lives in an environment in which organized crime runs their daily lives.  This outstanding article (posted at USS Clueless) gives a detailed look at the situation in that region.

For all the idiotic claims that US action was driven by the OOOOIILLL, it is easy to forget that the combined GNP of all the middle east, with all their oil wealth is less than half that of California alone. Needless to say, no one ever accused anti-war protesters of being particularly bright. Not too many business majors in the anti-war crowd I suspect.

The middle east is just such a mess. And they have no one to blame but themselves. An apathetic population has allowed gangsterism to take over.  For all the talk about Islam as a religion of peace, you don't see too many heads being chopped off elsewhere.  The American left and intelligentsia in Europe are always ready to excuse the monstrous behavior on public display in the middle east. It's almost a politically correct form of racism. As if the Islamic world are childlike in their understanding of adult civilized behavior and hence can be excused.  You can imagine the world reaction would be if Americans started arbitrarily rounding up Muslims and chopped off their heads. Heck, imagine the damage even a hundred fanatical Americans, well armed and trained could do throughout the Muslim world.  Luckily for them, Americans do behave in an adult civilized way.

Those who oppose US actions in the middle east haven't come forward with any constructive alternatives to current US actions. At best, we get impotent whining about Israel -- as if a country of a dozen million can be blamed for the vile behavior occurring in countries with a combined population of around 400 million.

Something has to be done. The corruption of the thugocracies in the middle east is affecting the rest of the world now as 9/11 made painfully clear.  I can't say I'm terribly happy with how the US occupation in Iraq has gone but I certainly can't think of any realistic alternatives than aggressive military action in the middle east to reshape it so that order and the rule of law can be firmly established in that part of the world and the hateful extremists can be weeded out.

We tried doing nothing for 8 years and that didn't work out too well. I fear that things are going to get a lot bloodier all around before things get better.

7,019 views 28 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Seize their oil fields and live 'em alone to their Allah or whatever...
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
as if a country of a dozen million can be blamed for the vile behavior occurring in countries with a combined population of around 400 million.


Ok, I am going to commit the cardinal sin, and suggest a hypothetical...

250 Million Americans have a land mass roughly the size of New Jersey given to a race of people they have been warring with for the last how many years... and they sit there happily with smiles on their faces welcoming their new neighbors...

And I am the magical man from happy land, in gumdrop lane, with my magical gumdrop hat, making people happy!!!

No one blames Isreal for the problems in the middle east... It is the problem in the middle east.

BAM!!!
Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't understand that either. I understand why people expect more from America than they do from Hussein, but to condone the atrocities that the Middle East commits simply because they have neighbors they hate is nonsensical at bbest, anti-Semitic at worst.

When you think about it, if America had an "Israel", we could use that to justify all the atrocities we commit and people would actually accept it, sympathize with us, and demonize our Israel.

Yes, we tried being civil with these countries, and that failed miserable. I say it's time for more tough love. What will happen? They'll hate us?
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yes, we tried being civil with these countries, and that failed miserable. I say it's time for more tough love. What will happen? They'll hate us?


If you can live with a constant red terror alert... go for your life... The US can do whatever it wants in the region, it will anyway...

just dont look innocently around the world for help and advice when you present the attitude on display here... the USA is powerful enough to make it's own bed, it can certainly lie in it as well... I suppose the problem is that any bed the USA makes will be big enough that the whole world has to lie in it... thats the penultimate problem - the USA is not obliged to care about the rest of the world when considering it's actions, but it is the price you pay for being the Worlds only super power...

BAM!!!
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top

If New Jersey were given to someone else, the rest of the United States would NOT collapse and descend into barbarity.

If someone gave Tazmania back to say China, would all of Australia descend into murderous barbarism of head cutting off, brutal dictators abusing their own people, terrorism, etc.

Muggaz, could you at least TRY to educate yourself on this issue? I provide a link to an article that is pretty thorough on the matter. Yes, it's long but at least you would have a better understanding on the region.

(edited to fix a very bad typo, the US would not start sawing off the heads of people if one US state were given over to someone else. It's absurd to blame the vile behvaior of the middle east on a country the size of a county).

Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
Ok Brad, disregard everything I say as simpleton talk... because as you have pointed out several times, I am an idiot...

It's actually Tasmania FYI....

What's so hard to understand about the issue? we just have different understandings... this has nothing to do with anti-semetism... It's about a whole people having their sovereign state taken away from them and given to a people that they have been opposed to for thousands and thousands of years... no referendum, no vote... just 'these guys were here 40000 years ago, lets give it to them... never mind who is here now..."

Why was Israel created? because of guilt... I know it's hard for someone like yourself to beleive the simplicity of this rather complex issue, but really, thats the crux of the matter... to paraphrase you, Isreal is most certainly not the 'Red Herring' you claim it to be... continue to display such an attitude at your own peril.

Please forgive my insolence... but the Falkland war had nothing to do with Isreal either... neither does a lot of other crap... but as far as I am concerned... eliminate the problem of Israel, or at least entertain a compromise worthy of both parties... and Middle East tension will alleviate somewhat...

If New Jersey were given to someone else, the rest of the United States would collapse and descend into barbarity


Let's organise it and find out... We will see if the rest of the world should intervene, because obviously your culture is so wrong, and everyone else has the answers...

If those that live in the middle east want to be barbaric, I say let them... I live in Australia, not my problem... When i start providing this rogue New Jersey with weapons and political clout... then it becomes my problem.

BAM!!!
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
"this has nothing to do with anti-semetism... It's about a whole people having their sovereign state taken away from them and given to a people that they have been opposed to for thousands and thousands of years... "


Muggaz, you realize that the statement defeats itself, right? Why have they been opposed to them for thousands of years? I have a copy of the Qu'ran on my desk, I've had it since college. Maybe you should take a look at it sometime, and maybe look into the hateful, anti-semitic tirades spouted from mosques all around the world...

Do you think that people blow themselves up on buses because of a real estate dispute, however "unjust" it might be? Nations in the Middle East have forcibly changed hands continually for thousands of years, neighbors watching idly from the sidelines. They barely have the concept of "nation" there. The only reason they hate it this time is because it is a Jewish state.

Come on, this is a solidly racist, religious issue, and not because I say so, but because THEY say so. I appreciate your opinion, but they have plenty of airtime and they are solidly on record.

*

As for the New Jersey thing, it is silly. People have their homes and property taken away all the time. I know of whole communities that are underwater in the US now, the residents dragged from their homes and paid a pittance. No one that I am aware of beheaded hostages. This is about a barbaric culture that refuses to be updated. It will be, one way or the other.


P.S. You might also look into the historical status of Palestinians as a "people". Are they Turkish then? British? Which flavor of occupation do they identify most with, considering they have been continually occupied since before Islam was a religion at all. I would love to know just exactly how you define the "Palestinian" people historically.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top

just dont look innocently around the world for help and advice when you present the attitude on display here... the USA is powerful enough to make it's own bed, it can certainly lie in it as well... I suppose the problem is that any bed the USA makes will be big enough that the whole world has to lie in it... thats the penultimate problem - the USA is not obliged to care about the rest of the world when considering it's actions, but it is the price you pay for being the Worlds only super power...


When did the terror attacks start happening? They started happening long before Bush was in office, so we're going to face constant red terror no matter what we do. Sure, maybe if we destroyed Israel, we'd gain some support from the terrorists, but Israelis are people too, and unlike the other people, they aren't terrorizing the US. Usually, people support those who don't alienate them and threaten to destroy their entire nations. Maybe I'm wrong, but terrorists won't make any friends when they're threatening to kill innocent people until they get their way, just like I won't get a girl to like me over this other guy who's admittedly a jerk if I threaten to kill her entire family if she doesn't do what I say. Whatever happened to diplomacy? 


I'm also wondering... If we were to take Israel away from Israelis, would these same people who treat Israel as the real problem support the exiled Israelis in their terrorism across the globe as they fight for the land in which some of them have lived their entire lives? They should, since they'll do it for Muslims. If not, it seems like anti-Semitism to me.

Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
If Islam truely is anti-semetic... I say kill all the towel heads... feel free to put that on record.

Great idea everyone, lets put Israel right in the middle of a bunch of places that will hate their guts just because they are Jewish...

Just because anti-semetic tirades are sprouted from *some* Mosques, doesn't mean that Islam is anti-semetic...

What, exactly, is their attachment to this particular piece of property, sentimental value? Could it be the fact that they have a religious attachment to it?


Did you read the article that Brad linked? Moslems and Jews both have Historical claims on Jerusalem... however, the terrorists dont even care about Religion... it's about power and hate... they suffer from the same affliction as any mortal male... greed. Its about a select few with all the influence controliing the masses through fear and diatribes... the only difference is the Civilised west, and the Barbaric Middle East...

BAM!!!
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
The middle east is just such a mess. And they have no one to blame but themselves. An apathetic population has allowed gangsterism to take over.


While that is technically true, it's hard to stand up to bullies - otherwise, inner-city and criminal gangs wouldn't flourish in many parts of the U.S. and elsewhere in the western world. When your life is being threatened, or the lives of loved ones, either explicitly or implicitly, sometimes all your fancy ideas of standing up for yourself, just go out the window, all the while thinking - "please don't hurt my kids".

It's a lot harder to uphold some lofty principle when it's your family on the firing line.

but I certainly can't think of any realistic alternatives than aggressive military action in the middle east to reshape it so that order and the rule of law can be firmly established in that part of the world and the hateful extremists can be weeded out. We tried doing nothing for 8 years and that didn't work out too well. I fear that things are going to get a lot bloodier all around before things get better.


While I agree with a lot of what you say Brad, I honestly don't think that hateful extremists will be "weeded out" like that - military action (if that is the only thing on-going). Unless total annihilation is being considered, I don't think it be that easy to stop the hate with, what amounts to, more hate. I think that engaging those whom you can't understand in discussion is typically required for any effective, long-term solution.

In the interim, effective policing is needed - where the police force is trusted by most of the populace. Unfortunately, a few foolish U.S. soldiers running the prisons over there have caused untold and disproportionate damage to the U.S. cause. One can only hope that the situation is stabilized, so that longer term efforts can bear more fruit.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hateful extremists won't be weeded out. Civility will be learned over time by watching the futility of this hate. After a while you decide you'd rather not have your house bulldozed anymore. Terrorists have had little in the way of negative reinforcement until now, on the contrary, they have been the heroes of the Middle East.

Now, though, they are bringing a great deal of pain to their neighbors. Now the neighbors are starting to question why Palestinians feel the need to kill other Palestinians, or to kill Israelis when they know the reprisals and suffering the attacks will cause for the very people the liars claim to represent. You think Iraqis appreciate foreigners killing Iraqis? No, and it will take its toll on the "cause" eventually.

As an aside, does anyone here think that if Israel hadn't been created by the UN, that there would be a Palestinian state now? Do you think that there would be some utopian democracy where the "people" decide what happens to their land? Show me one other such state in the Arab world. There aren't any.

If Israel hadn't been created the "Palestinians" would have either faced another occupation from a western nation or passed from neighboring state to neighboring state. Please, someone with heartfelt concern for Palestinian sovereignty, please tell me when they have ever been "sovereign".

What they are asking now is for Israel to be handed to them as it was to Jews 50+ years ago. It would be like us handing California back to the Native Americans and saying "my bad". Have they ever "ruled" it, ever? Why should we give it to them now when it has never historically been theirs?

Palestinian lands have been forcibly occupied far, far longer than America. Squatter's rights are cool and all, but when they have no ability to hold their land, and it passes like a badminton birdie from fascist state to fascist state, I dunno how this could be much worse.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
How do we go about creating the attitude within the Middle East that terrorism is bad though?

You dont go about it by invading and dropping bombs...fortunately for us, we are givin the oppurtunity to learn on our own accord from an early age... Kids in the Middle East are taught to hate the USA... how do we stop that? the USA becoming more agressive?

It would be like us handing California back to the Native Americans and saying "my bad"


I agree... Its too far gone now... but there has to be a compromise, and standing from the outside looking in, the Palestinians have it far worse than the Israelites...

Sorry for the massive thread Hijack Brad... this article is about all the problems in the middle east.... and how Israel has nothing to do with those problems.... maybe I should eat my words...

BAM!!!
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hmmmm, you are obviously an American who likes Bush. The claim that US foriegn policy (which you so naively call 'US Action') is not driven by 'OOOIIIIILLLL' is so patently so absurd I can't believ you still think otherwise.

Bush has made the world a far more dangerous place all in the interest of lining his pockets (oh and those of his dads and his friends) with money.

Just look at what Rumsfeld (spelling?) said the day after 9/11. Just look at who got the contracts in Afganhistan and Iraq. OPEN YOUR EYES.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
" How do we go about creating the attitude within the Middle East that terrorism is bad though? You don't go about it by invading and dropping bombs..."


There are two kinds of reinforcement: positive and negative. For the last 50 years terrorists have gotten pretty much nothing but positive reinforcement from their peers. Now that the average Middle Eastern citizen is threatened with world war, they have to look at it quantitatively. What have they accomplished with this terror in 50 years? What do they stand to lose if they continue to provoke the hate of the West?

The illusion that we are weak and can be intimidated, or that killing enough of us will make us concede political points is pretty much shot now. We have more bombs, and the more we are antagonized, the more apt we are to use them. They can kill a few thousand, we can wipe them from the face of the earth. The nastier they get, the more apt the average American is to stomach more monstrous reprisals. My blog tonight was about that.

After you concede that terrorism isn't gonna further their aims, all they have left is cause and effect, and the effects are felt by everyone now, not just the terrorists. Put simply, these totalitarian regimes and terrorist attitudes are keeping the Middle East in the dark ages, when they are intelligent, resourceful people with the potential to innovate and compete in every way with the rest of the world.

Japan is a golden example of this, I think. You don't have to lose your culture to come to a reasonable understanding with the rest of the world. On the contrary, you can make your culture all the more attractive *TO* the rest of the world by not making it seem such a threat to them. WW2 was not positive reinforcement for the Japanese people, but the lesson derived from their defeat made them understand that there are other ways to achieve power and influence besides backwards, medieval aggression.

Discarding hateful tactics didn't cause the Japanese to lose their identity, on the contrary, they have created Japanophiles all over the world. Arab nations could do the same if they simply would step away from the barbarism that the rest of the world finds so horrific. The baby will be out with the bath water until they do.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
Insightful - as always Baker Street....

I was kind of hoping we wouldn't have to Nuke the Arabs though... I guess only time will tell, and it's hard to take a proactive stance on the matter especially when the people hate the US so much...

The knee jerk reactions are what causes ongoing problems.... but it's also twice as hard because it isn't a level playing field... Terrorist's dont comply with any conventions...

The example of Japan is brilliant, however, it's not quite the same situation... here is to hoping...

BAM!!!
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
As an aside, you really need to see the garbage posted here: mikimouse.joeuser.com

Mikimouse is blaming the victims for their own beheadings, calling them "dorks", "Schmucks", calling the Korean hostage "Mr. Pootang". This is the reason people are being beheaded, because there is a large section of society ready, willing, and able to blame the US.

Brad is a nice guy, but "YEAH??? Too Bad. Shoulda Stayed Home Idiot!" and "Another Dead American - Effects Of The War In Iraq" is some of the most offensive stuff I have read at JU, and I would ban his ass on principle for the "pootang" stuff. This is the reason that cleaning up the Middle East is so difficult.

There is always some waste of skin that is willing to blame the victim and politicize their death to look witty and superior. They just said on the news that the Korean has been beheaded. I guess mikimouse will have more to laugh about now. Sick asshole.

P.S. Al Jazeera is stating that the Korean gentlman was beheaded. Fuck mikimouse and all the rest that will turn this into some "statement". The argument itself is terroristic.

Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well, I think that the US should be held to a higher standard than that of the terrorists. After all, we expect more from a priest or the President than we do from Joe Crackhead. However, I do have a problem when people condone the atrocities that the terrorists commit, because "they know no better" or something like that. The only violent acts against innocent people that I'd condone are the acts of non-human animals, but since the terrorists are human, I expect them to act with a bit more civility. If we are to expect less from them than we do from dogs though, then I see nothing wrong with "euthanizing" them.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
"If we are to expect less from them than we do from dogs though, then I see nothing wrong with "euthanizing" them."


That got an insightful from me. You have to draw a line and say that when people withdraw themselves from the human race, when they completely reject all the tenets of humanity and can behead someone with a carving knife, the time has come to see them as something other than human.

The average Middle Eastern citizen should be able to think back and quake at what happens to people like this. Their end should be so horrifying that no one would consider the possibility of beheading as a political tool. If they can't summon up the humanity to refuse to do it, they should be made to be afraid to do it.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
It's about a whole people having their sovereign state taken away from them and given to a people that they have been opposed to for thousands and thousands of years... no referendum, no vote... just 'these guys were here 40000 years ago, lets give it to them... never mind who is here now..."


What soverign state was this? Palestine was a British possession immediately prior to Israel's creation. Before that it was controlled by the Ottomans.

I honestly don't think that hateful extremists will be "weeded out" like that -


Hateful extremism tends to be shunned and weeded out in free societies. It is certainly not completely stopped, but it is not widely aided either.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
Handing Palestine to the Palestinians after WW2 would have been unthinkable. People can see the difficulty in starting a new government in Iraq, but they think it would have been logical to hand the most contested piece of property in the world over to a tiny number of bitterly poor, uneducated people with no means of protecting themselves. And this in an era when larger nations were still slicing up and annexing all the unprotected land they could get their hands on.

The only thing that might have been possible would have been to make the whole area a UN "nuetral zone", like Vatican city or something similar. I doubt if it would have survived a decade anyway.

The Palestinians would have fared no better, though, and the land still wouldn't be theirs.

Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
Brad is a nice guy, but "YEAH??? Too Bad. Shoulda Stayed Home Idiot!" and "Another Dead American - Effects Of The War In Iraq" is some of the most offensive stuff I have read at JU, and I would ban his ass on principle for the "pootang" stuff.


I feel that this cannot be overlooked also, this article is offensive to everyone here (unless you are an Islamic terrorist). Having issues with the occupation of Iraq is all part of the debating spirit but there are limits to free speech.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
Without being aggressive, Muggaz..Could you tell me why this is: "USA is powerful enough to make it's own bed, it can certainly lie in it as well"


Hehe... I am not aggresive!!!

Ok, basically what I mean by that, is all actions commited by the USA are sanctioned by the people - i.e. they elect their representatives to act for them... so they are comfortable with electing representatives who may have pro-war stance... whatever...

Terrorism is often commited by rogue groups *sometimes* sanctioned by the state, but generally, as rogue groups... when the groups act the whole world is affected and they DO have to lie in the bed... but it was made by the terrorists...

The problem of the playing field spring to mind again... Terrorists dont seem to care that the whole population of Afghanistan suffers... so they dont care how they make their bed... the USA should make its bed with delicate care...

BAM!!!
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
So the issue is "plausible deniability"? I don't think anyone at this point suffers from the illusion that the citizens of the Middle East don't support suicide bombing and other terroristic acts. I was watching TV on 9/11 and saw people cheering in the streets and heard the "man on the street" interviews. We see the polls all the time.

In the end, what kind of bed are we talking about? I think the Middle East has a far, far bleaker future if they continue to support this kind of behavior. At this point I think we have much more to fear if we condone or coddle terrorists and the people who cheerlead for them. I fear world opinion much less than people who have nothing but hatred for the West, and see our very existance as a threat to their ignorant religious ideals.

Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
In the end, what kind of bed are we talking about? I think the Middle East has a far, far bleaker future if they continue to support this kind of behavior


Baker, I agree with you man...

However, it's such a paradoxical situation... How do you tell a people that hate you because you are from a Western Culture that all you want to do is help save them from themselves?

I dont agree with interventionalist tactics... but as each street parade occurs, and as the masses chant 'death to America' you have to ask the hard questions... How do you attack the Terrorist infrastructure???

Many times it has been remarked that the war in Iraq is about oil... I wonder how much money the terrorist's would have if no one purchased Middle East oil... how many members of the Saudi Royal family came under class action for having 'involvement' in 9/11, and how many of those very same family members have done business with an American administration?

I am afraid that if the US tries to uncover too many details about the Terrorist infrastructure, it might end up with egg on its face... then again, that is nothing but speculation... if the middle east is to be cleaned up... you have to find the source of the dirt, otherwise it just keeps coming back...

BAM!!!
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
People in the Middle East seem to think that beheading hostages is a "statement", or a credible method of change. It is that apathy that is the true "source", not the militants themselves. You don't see this in other nations because it isn't an option people consider. Evenif it crossed their minds they *know* what would become of them. The people who beheaded that Korean today did so fearlessly, without a doubt that they'd get away with it.

We have to address the fact that people are being beheaded and the "man on the street" doesn't have that much of a problem with it. Beheading civilians on film can no longer be seen as "empowerment". It needs to be seen as what it is, someone who is too cowardly to be a "martyr" and fight a real war, and the root cause of the misery the average person in the Middle East will suffer.

What was once a "Middle East" problem is now a mainland Asian problem, a Pacific Island problem. When did the mold spread to other parts of the world? During the era that the US and the rest of the West took little interest in what was happening. During the era that people like Yassir Arafat were hailed as statesmen. That era is over, hopefully. I guess we'll see in November, huh?

I saw a quote from Clinton's book today that wen't something like "Arafat couldn't make the jump from revolutionary to statesman". Revolutionary? I never saw him make the jump from terrorist to revolutionary.

Wiping militant islam from the face of the earth would be of great benefit to the Middle East, but I am not so charitable that I would waste a single bullet for them after the behavior I have seen in the last few months. Militant Islam is going to contunue to spread to third-world, troubled nations, allowing them to make more and more footholds like Afghanistan. To prevent that from happening I think it would be very worthwhile to use all means necessary to show citizens of the Middle East that it isn't in their interest to condone acts like we saw today.