A Rose by Any Other Name

is still a rose

from JoeUser Forums
A couple of blogs here at JU have been of interest. KFC's blog regarding language and Cedarbird's regards Mormons as Christians.

When we practice Christianity we are Christians, I believe. When we practice Zen, we are Zen practitioners. When we practice Judaism we are Jews. OK, yadda yadda. But here's the thing: all practices are similar if not identical on some levels.

KFC puts out an article suggesting meditation, yoga, and the like, are paths to the Devil (as if the Devil were a being). Yet, she runs mindfully, she stretches before or after her runs (I suspect, anyway) and she prays. Prayer is meditation, stretching is yoga, and mindfulness is Zen.

Just so, one who holds Jesus to be the son of God and a personal savior and behaves in this fashion, is a Christian, regardless of the stripe...and there are a zillion stripes folks, as anyone who ever lived in the deep south can attest.

so, what''s the beef?

I suspect we each want to hold onto our particular slice of the pie and call it the real pie. Silly, but human.

Religious practice has a habit of doing this to us unless we are willing to work at it, practice our faith as a spiritual practice, and allow this self-centered, ethos-centric POV to fall away. In which we are left with this: all paths lead us to the Absolute.

Be well.
religion
3,717 views 18 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
You misunderstood Sodaiho. Yes Christians can meditate and even do the stretching exercises but those same words can be twisted to mean something else involving the occult. That's why the words were listed.

I also explained on my site the difference between the western style of Yoga vs the eastern style of Yoga. There is a difference from me, a Christian doing a few stretches and one who holds dear to the eastern style of Yoga involved in the occult.

There's nothing wrong with Yoga exercise or meditation depending on what you're meditating on.

You can meditate on murder or scriptures. You can meditate on Satanic influences of the occult. There is a difference.

You can be gay or gay and there is a difference.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
[Quote] Religious practice has a habit of doing this to us unless we are willing to work at it, practice our faith as a spiritual practice, and allow this self-centered, ethos-centric POV to fall away. In which we are left with this: all paths lead us to the Absolute.[\ Quote]

Amen!
Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
KFC: Thank you for your clarification, KFC, but I believe my point still stands. My understanding of your point of view in general is that if something is not of, or in, Christ, it is either wrong to do or outright evil. Please correct me if I am mistaken. In this, I would say, the union of a person with the Absolute is the same regardless of how we get there. Many names, many paths, one God. As to your list, you may want to amend it to be more specific as to what forms of meditation, yoga, etc., are the language of the Adversary.

foreverserenity: a bow to you.

Be well.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
(in other words, kfc, you're not very good at conveying the love of Christ to your your fellow human beings via the written word. perhaps you ought to consider a different hobby, or at least a different method.)
End of quote


Thanks for the advice LW. I'll keep that in mind. I'm sorry I've come across as so not loving to you, but you have to admit you're a hard nut to crack!! Not everyone can reach everyone you know.

In the meantime I have many that I have been able to speak to and reach all for the glory of God and many that I've had the privilege of discipling along the way. As long as he gives me a heart for the lost, I'll continue. Remember Jeremiah 20:7-9 ia my life text.

What you're telling me is that I'm not perfect and I already knew that. But it's not over yet LW. I believe about half of what you say to begin with. Deep down I do believe there is another story to tell.

Please correct me if I am mistaken. In this, I would say, the union of a person with the Absolute is the same regardless of how we get there
End of quote


Well it depends on your meaning of this Sodaiho. If I believe the words of Jesus, he said there is only one way to the FAther and that was through him. But I also believe that all paths will eventually lead to the Father but not in the way you're thinking. One day we will all stand before our Creator and have to answer for this one life he gave us. For many it will not be a good report and there will be weeping. For others there will be joy.






Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
If I believe the words of Jesus, he said there is only one way to the FAther and that was through him.
End of quote


It is on this that you rest. Fortunately, Jesus' words can be taken a number of ways, including undestanding his statements that he is the way, the truth, and the life, as his way, his truth, his life are models and paths to follow for your own salvation, i.e., realization. I do not believe in a version of a punitive, judging God. I believe He is too large for that.

Be well.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top

It is on this that you rest.
End of quote


Yes.

Fortunately, Jesus' words can be taken a number of ways,
End of quote


Well, he didn't leave much room here. He was quite clear. There are not many ways to the Father in heaven, only one. We see this all thru the scriptures both the Jewish and NT.

I do not believe in a version of a punitive, judging God. I believe He is too large for that
End of quote


I believe God has many attributes that have to be used and judgment is one of them. He is a holy God and his holiness demands judgment to be made for those who have transgressed against him. He demands us to be holy as he is holy and the only way we can do this is thru his son. The only way we can be righteous is thru his son. He knew that and we are cleansed and made free thru what his son did for us. That's what the Torah was all about. In the OT the sheep died for the shepherd and his family. In the NT the shepherd died for the sheep. All for a purpose. Restoration.

Anyone found without sacrificial blood on their mantel of their soul will be found guilty and will die. Ever watch the 10 Commandments? The OT is the NT revealed.

Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
I dunno about all this, and I'm really not all that bright -but my opinion on the matter is like what I said on a recent thread of Maso's: Maybe it ain't so much what you believe but how you believe, you know?

But like I said, what do I know? I'm not really all that bright.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top

Well, he didn't leave much room here. He was quite clear. There are not many ways to the Father in heaven, only one. We see this all thru the scriptures both the Jewish and NT.
End of quote


Dear KFC, Clearly the wording of the Christian scripture is seriously ambiguous, just as Torah is. It is this ambiguity that allows each faith to be so dynamic. Diversity of belief is a wonderful thing.

Christians, especially fundamentalists, tend to see after the fact allusions to their Christ in Hebrew scripture, suggesting that Jesus was God and that the Hebrew scripture itself suggests Jesus was the Messiah. In my opinion this is nonsense, literally, certainly logically. If you believe Jesus, the man, was God, and you worship him, then I believe you are an idolater no different than the ancient Egyptians worshipping Ra, for example. If, on the other hand, you see Jesus as a son of God, as all of us are, no problem.

One of the most serious problems regards idolatry is that it reifies God. I do not see how saying one man is God whereas all of creation is nt, is helpful toward spiritual unity with the Infinite. Idolatry is a sort of contradiction in terms on the one hand and a reductio ad absurdum, on the other.

I believe God has many attributes that have to be used and judgment is one of them. He is a holy God and his holiness demands judgment to be made for those who have transgressed against him. He demands us to be holy as he is holy and the only way we can do this is thru his son.
End of quote


In essence I agree with you, but not in the literal sense and clearly not regards to your assertion that the only way to be holy is through idolatry. I believe we are better able to be holy by being holy, that is, following the Torah, the precepts of a good life, and living in harmony with natural rhythm of the universe.

I see the universe as the living, breathing, pulsating body of God. No need for an intermediary. In fact intermediaries tend to get in the way.

Be well.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
Sodaiho writes:
In which we are left with this: all paths lead us to the Absolute.
End of quote


KFC POSTS:
But I also believe that all paths will eventually lead to the Father but not in the way you're thinking. One day we will all stand before our Creator and have to answer for this one life he gave us. For many it will not be a good report and there will be weeping. For others there will be joy.
End of quote



All paths lead us to the Absolute is true only in the sense that we will one day be before the Judge as KFC has said.

Other than that all paths lead to God is a rather extreme statement. Some paths definitely do not lead to God...Christ Himself distinguished between the two roads declaring the way leading to everlasting life to be narrow and restricted, while the way leading to everlasting destruction to be broad and pleasant to those who are bent on doing life their own way according to their own self-satisfaction. St.Paul told the Corinthians that the unjust will not possess the kingdom of Heaven. In this sense we cannot say that all paths lead to God.

Each path can't lead to God becasue it's for God to say which path we will come to Him and not for man to tell God to be content with whatever men choose to do.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Dear KFC, Clearly the wording of the Christian scripture is seriously ambiguous
End of quote


but isn't that the tone Satan used in the garden? I know, I know you don't agree with the story right? But I see you doing the same? Did God really say.......?

If you believe Jesus, the man, was God, and you worship him
End of quote


yes, that's because you don't accept Christ of the NT as Jehovah in the Jewish Scriptures and I am here to say they are one in the same. Jesus is Jehovah in the flesh. Now, if this were true....go with me here...lol....would you still call this idolatry?

If, on the other hand, you see Jesus as a son of God, as all of us are, no problem.
End of quote


I believe that as well. Jesus in the flesh was God the Son.....it all comes down to the question..."who do you say that I am?" Was he God or was he a created being?

I believe we are better able to be holy by being holy, that is, following the Torah, the precepts of a good life, and living in harmony with natural rhythm of the universe.
End of quote


all works based theology which as you probably have guessed I reject. How do you know if you're good enough? How do you measure your good works against the bad works (which we all are guilty of)? What kind of God would HE be to keep us guessing when it comes to such a serious issue...just hanging there wondering?

In fact intermediaries tend to get in the way.
End of quote


Well maybe but in this case this mediator IS THE WAY!!!  ;) 



Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
I just got this quote from one of my news sources after my last reply Sodaiho. I guess just another derganged Christian? He speaks my heart.

"I firmly believe that that’s what my calling is, to get across who the true Jesus is."

— Jason Elam, kicker for the Denver Broncos



Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
Each path can't lead to God becasue it's for God to say which path we will come to Him and not for man to tell God to be content with whatever men choose to do.
End of quote


The worrying thing for me about true believer Christians is that they often assume God is a straightforward, 'I say what I mean' and sadly rather dull-witted individual.

I've never seen any evidence to suggest that God isn't the subtlest, most manipulative (in a positive way) mind in existence.

If his plans are truly ineffable, then surely even the paths some among us perceive as wrong may well lead to God. I mean, we have to assume that God is clever enough to out-think us, right?

He's certainly the sort that would play with our heads - the story of Job is proof of that.

So personally I'm inclined to think you can do God's work chanting Satanic verses just as easily as you can do it muttering prayers and gesticulating at passers-by.

Which is off the point really.

On topic:
Great article Sodaiho! I think I've mentioned before that I felt much the same 'sense of God' in a mosque in Jogjakarta, Indonesia as I have in the Catholic churches of my youth.

If God is anywhere, it is everywhere, ergo all paths lead to God. It's always seemed a bit rich to me to assume that we can decipher God's preferred path through reading scripture. Jesus showed us the right way through his example, not just his words. As you can be a good man/woman in his image without ever knowing he existed, I don't think it's stupid to assume that Jesus would save you anyway even if you never knew about or weren't entirely enthused with the way modern churches portray him.

He just doesn't seem like that much of a dick.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Once upon a time, a Baptist preacher and a Methodist pastor from two local
churches are standing by the side of the road, feverishly
pounding a handmade sign into the ground with a large rock.
The sign reads:

THE END IS NEAR TURN AROUND NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE

As a car speeds past them, the driver yells, "Leave us alone,
you religious wackos!"

From the curve, they hear screeching tires and a big splash.

The Methodist turns to the Baptist and asks, "Do you think
the sign should just say 'Bridge Out'?"
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hello roy...thank you :)

from a friend on my Zen Living Yahoogroup:


The Devil went for a walk with a friend,
They saw a man ahead of them stoop down
and pick up something from the ground;

"What did that man find?" asked the friend.

"A piece of truth" said the devil.

"Doesn't that disturb you" asked the friend.

"No" said the devil. "I shall let him make a belief out of it".

A religious belief is a signpost pointing the way to truth. When you
cling to the signpost you are prevented from moving towards the Truth
because you think you have it already.

By Anthony De Mello
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
By Anthony De Mello
End of quote


Believe it or not, I've read all his books. My favorite is Awareness and I try to read from it often as I can.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
"A religious belief… is not a statement about Reality, but a hint, a clue about something that is a mystery, beyond the grasp of human thought. In short, a religious belief is only a finger pointing to the moon. Some religious people never get beyond the study of the finger. Others are engaged in sucking it. Others yet use the finger to gouge their eyes out. These are the bigots whom religion has made blind. Rare indeed is the religionist who is sufficiently detached from the finger to see what it is indicating— these are those who, having gone beyond belief, are taken for blasphemers." (anthony de mello)
End of quote


I still love this! :D

~Zoo