It's Alive

If you go to the tomb of Confucius, you’ll find it’s occupied. If you go to the tomb of Buddha, you’ll find it’s occupied. If you go to the tomb of Jesus, you’ll find it empty.

Finding an empty tomb is easy. The trick is to make people believe that there should be someone in it.

There are a lot of mummies missing from their tombs.....I hope they aren't alive!

Why would Christ's body have to be alive for you to believe in him?  Would his teachings, and him being the "son of God" be irrelevant if he were no longer "alive"?

 

Good Morning KFC,
To some of your questions, a typical Jewish answer, yes and no. I think that Christians who believe Jesus was God are, indeed, idolaters. I think this even though Jewish leaders centuries ago addressed the issue and said Christians were not. Dissent is part of our practice, you know. Those centuries old Jews were very worried about what Christians thought of them and they did not really wish to antagonize their enemies. I think Christians should understand the teachings of Jesus as I believe they were intended, a map to living with God. He was teaching through example, yet Christians get so caught in the words. They are like spiritual traps, words, and we must be diligent in not getting caught in them. To do this would be genuine religious experience, not idolatry. So, those fundamentalists are, indeed, fools caught in their own trap of belief.

As others have said, a missing body and testimony from the inner circle is not evidence of a resurrection or an ascension, for that matter.

Buddhists say, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!" There is a very good reason for this. If we were to accept the teachings without our own verification of their truth, we too would be idol worshipers. As it is were revere the Buddha as an exemplar, not a God. Our practice is our life, as it should be with Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

I say to you quite directly, what you believe is of no value at all; what you do, on the other hand is everything. Now, do well.

Absolutely. How can we be risen if He isn't risen?

Would his teachings, and him being the "son of God" be irrelevant if he were no longer "alive"? Absolutely. How can we be risen if He isn't risen?

So the lesson, for example, of turning the other cheek is useless if Jesus didn't exist? Love thy neighbor, as a suggestion for good living, is useless without a God? So if you never heard of God or Jesus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, you'd default to being a serial killer?

So the lesson, for example, of turning the other cheek is useless if Jesus didn't exist?

Paul said why bother? What advantage is it for me if the dead are not going to be risen in eternity? Let us eat and drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

If there is no resurrection, the bodily resurrection of Christ is untrue, the preaching the gospel is a lie, the Christian faith is without meaninful content and Christians are hopeless concerning their prospects for the future.

Ya, you can still be nice to the guy next door. But where's the hope? Where's the purpose for our lives? So why not eat, drink and be merry? Why not put ourselves first? After all if this is all there is, we should be getting all we can now.

Those centuries old Jews were very worried about what Christians thought of them and they did not really wish to antagonize their enemies.

Sodaiho those century old Jews were Christian Jews. Those first Christians were ALL JEWS. The gentiles didn't come into the church until after the Jerusalem council when the Apostles decided they should be allowed into the Christian Club. Many of the Jewish Priests after the temple was destroyed converted themselves to the Christian Faith. They saw the curtain rip in two and knew this was indeed the Messiah they had been preaching about.

As others have said, a missing body and testimony from the inner circle is not evidence of a resurrection or an ascension, for that matter

Well all that had to be done to shut us all up was to come up with the body. Where did it go? It couldn't have been stolen. It wouldn't have benefitted anyone. The Romans certainly wouldn't have stolen the body. They guarded the tomb so his followers couldn't steal the body and therefore start a resurrection rumor. The disciples all fled. They were hiding out. They wouldn't have stolen the body and then ALL die for a lie. Most had deserted this Christ. So where did his body go? What about the more than 500 witnesses after his death? What about the fact that we are still to this day speaking of this?

I don't know what you need for evidence. But I believe, it will all be settled soon enough anyway. Everything will be cleared up.

As it is were revere the Buddha as an exemplar, not a God. Our practice is our life, as it should be with Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

There is a reason for this. The Buddha NEVER claimed to be God. Jesus did. Our life is in Christ. We are to revere Christ as God just as Thomas, the doubter showed us when he said..."my Lord and my God." He is in us. Yes, we are to be examples but our examples are to point others to Christ, not ourselves. It's not about us. It's all about HIM. We should be saying to others by our actions...imitate me as I imitate Christ.

Why would Christ's body have to be alive for you to believe in him? Would his teachings, and him being the "son of God" be irrelevant if he were no longer "alive"?

Yes, because it was all tied together. In the OT one sheep was sacrificed for the sins of a family. A sheep died for a shepherd. In the NT the shepherd died for the sheep. One Shepherd sacrificed himself for the whole world.

He came to die. He spoke of his death and subsequent resurrection. If this wasn't to be, then he would lose all credibility.

Like I said above: If there is no resurrection, the bodily resurrection of Christ is untrue, the preaching the gospel is a lie, the Christian faith is without meaningful content and Christians are hopeless concerning their prospects for the future.

The Buddha NEVER claimed to be God. Jesus did.

May I request some biblical quotations of Jesus claiming to be divine, please?

Like I said above: If there is no resurrection, the bodily resurrection of Christ is untrue, the preaching the gospel is a lie, the Christian faith is without meaningful content and Christians are hopeless concerning their prospects for the future.

What I hear you saying is that without your belief to hold you up, your life is worthless. Is that correct? You believe strongly in belief as a self defense measure?

Supposing, hypothetically, no Christ ever existed, would it not be a good purpose for people to just "be like" Christ as they understand him today? By accounts, the example he set for how to live was fairly elegant and simple enough to be easy to follow. I think that would be a nice purpose - enjoy every day you have and spread the enjoyment to others when possible. To live and die and to hopefully leave the world a better place than you found it.

But then, I'm an atheist - and not a serial killer, thief, or child molester. Strange, that.

May I request some biblical quotations of Jesus claiming to be divine, please?

Sure. There are many references in the NT including his own words and actions that point to him being God.

John 8:58-59

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by

The I AM denotes absolute external existence, not simply existence prior to Abraham. (Ex 3:14) It is a claim to be YHWH of the OT. The Jews undersood exactly the significance of this claim from their reaction to the supposed blasphemy.

John 20:28 I like as well which says:

And Thomas answered and said unto him, "My Lord and my God"

The answer back from Jesus was:

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed

Thomas, the doubter finally recognized the full deity of Jesus and Jesus didn't deny it. We see elswhere when others bowed down at the feet of angels and even the Apostles and were told to get up because they were not worthy of such an honor.

Jesus claimed deity throughout his ministry.

Look at the names of deity that He uses, (John 8:58, Matthew 22:42-45),

The attributes of deity that he claimed (holiness-John 8:46, omnipotence and omnipresence-Matt 28:20, omniscience-John 11:11-14),

The things He claimed to be able to do that only God can do (forgive sins- Mark 2:5-7; raise the dead- John 5:28-30, 11:43; judge all men- 5:22,27)

I'm only answering this Ock because you asked me. I'm fully aware that I could give you a boatload of answers and that wouldn't make you believe what you Choose to believe. Only God can changed hearts and open minds, eyes and ears.

What I hear you saying is that without your belief to hold you up, your life is worthless

Pretty much. If this is all there is then this is indeed a sad state of affairs. What purpose does it serve? If this is all there is to the world then who cares if we're good or bad? What's stopping you Ock from being that murderer or thief?

But then, I'm an atheist - and not a serial killer, thief, or child molester. Strange, that.

I'm not linking the two. But I would imagine that one who does such things are, for the most part, not believers because they don't worry or think about answering for their crimes. There is no accountability. Tomorrow we will die anyway so who cares?

C.S. Lewis said:

If I find in myself desires which nothing in this world can satisfy, the only logical explanation is that I was made for another world."

Supposing, hypothetically, no Christ ever existed, would it not be a good purpose for people to just "be like" Christ as they understand him today? By accounts, the example he set for how to live was fairly elegant and simple enough to be easy to follow

Actually there is a book out there called "What if Jesus Was Never Born?"

Ok, so he set an example but then he also lied if half of what he said wasn't true. Again, he'd lose all credibility. If he didn't raise himself like he said he would, then how would we believe the other stuff he said?

That's why I think it's a crock when people say he was a good teacher only and NOT God in the flesh. A good teacher is NOT going to lie to you just so you'll follow him. He would be nothing more than a con-artist.

How do you know? Because she SAID she was? Did she?

Either you missed my point, KFC, or there is at least confusion as to what I am pointing out. Let me try again.

People have it in themselves to behave without a God to tell them what that is or how to do it.

And whether or not LW's one example is objectively correct, that wasn't her point. You surely admit there ARE examples of true believers that commit all manner of egregious acts on other humans as well as atheists that live clean lives relative to these believers, no?

SiDaiho posts:
As it is were revere the Buddha as an exemplar, not a God. Our practice is our life, as it should be with Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

OckhamsRazor posts:
So the lesson, for example, of turning the other cheek is useless if Jesus didn't exist? Love thy neighbor, as a suggestion for good living, is useless without a God? So if you never heard of God or Jesus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, you'd default to being a serial killer?

But then, I'm an atheist - and not a serial killer, thief, or child molester. Strange, that.

and

People have it in themselves to behave without a God to tell them what that is or how to do it.
and

You surely admit there ARE examples of true believers that commit all manner of egregious acts on other humans as well as atheists that live clean lives relative to these believers, no?

Just getting these comments on the radar.

There's a lot of speculation there.  Over the course of time, many bodies were removed from graves/tombs for various reasons not known at the time.  I'm pretty sure that there are all sorts of events that happened during that time that were not documented.  Some examples of other historical body movings- people moved the mummies all over the place.  A lot of times it was to protect them.  other times it was malicious, and other times it was for profit.  After the Salem witch trials, bodies were moved by family members to unmarked areas to either protect the bodies or give them a "correct" burial.

Now, if you can produce a living Jesus, then we have something to talk about.  Saying that a body is not there is not "proof" of anything but an empty grave.

I think it is a sad state that yo believe that Christianity is the only thing that keeps people "human".  I don't believe in Christianity, but if you ask people that know me, you will find that I am honest to a fault.  I am also very moral and ethical.  My parents were not Christian.  I have never believed in any religion.  So, what has made me this way?  Well, it's my respect for life.  It's my belief that this is all we have and that I have no right disturbing anyone else during their single journey on earth.  I believe that our "purpose" is the same as any other animal on this earth- we are here to live a life.  We aren't "serving" anyone.  We exist.

The more I interact with fanatical Christians, the more I realize that I don't want to live like that.  I don't need a book to tell me that I shouldn't hurt other people.  I don't need a book to tell me that helping others is a good thing, or that my family is important, or that taking stuff from others is wrong.  I don't need to feel that I have to "serve" a higher power to be "good".  And, I certainly don't have to "pray" that life on earth is not all we have.  I'm OK with having this life only.  I'm OK with thinking that we're just dead when we die.  I respect life even more for assuming that this is all there is.  I don't need to believe that there was a man that died and was reincarnated...oops...I mean, "resurrected" who came here to "save us".  All I need to know is that I am here and that living my life in a way that harms no one is the way to be.

 

That is really sad and pathetic. It provides a lot of understanding into the workings of the devout Christian mind. No wonder ya'll resist change so much. Someone pokes a hole in the Bible and you think your entire religion will get sucked out through it.

What's the harm in living well just because you want to? Because it's good for other people?

Christians are undoubtedly the most selfish people in the entire world. "If I don't have a chance at getting into Heaven, then I don't see any reason to help anyone."

Wow...I mean, freaking wow.

~Zoo

There's a lot of speculation there. Over the course of time, many bodies were removed from graves/tombs for various reasons not known at the time.

Yes, but in this case it would serve no one to steal the body. The Romans? If they stole the body it would only fuel the speculations of the Christians awaiting some resurrection promised. That's why the tomb was heavily guarded for that very reason. They didn't need to let this speculation continue. They wanted this nipped in the bud. Do you think they stole the body? It wouldn't serve their purpose to do so.

The Disciples or Family members? First off, not many family members believed him. Second of all they would have to get past guards and a two ton stone that was rolled into place risking their life in doing so. Also, the eyewitness account afterwards showed the linen clothes were folded neatly in the tomb. Now if someone was going to steal this wrapped body would they take the time to unwrap the tightly wound burial cloths and then fold them neatly leaving them behind? I don't think so.

Besides all that, his believers with the exception of just a couple had all fled the scene in fear. There was no way they were going near that tomb nor were they at the foot of his cross. In fact, his closest disciple had gone on record denying him. By all accounts they had all fallen apart. One killed himself and the rest were all in hiding. Then to top all this off, after they were convinced he was resurrected (by seeing him in person) they risked their very lives for this. Would they have done so for a lie? I don't think so.

Now, if you can produce a living Jesus, then we have something to talk about. Saying that a body is not there is not "proof" of anything but an empty grave

Honestly? You would? I don't think so. We do have writen eyewitness accounts. Paul said:

He was buried and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. And that he was SEEN of Peter, then of the 12. After that he was seen of ABOVE 500 brethren at once of whom the greater part remain unto the present (still living) but some have fallen asleep (died). After that he was seen of James then of all the Apostles and last of all he was seen of me also as one born out of due time." 1 Cor 15.

Luke the physician wrote: "even as they delivered them to us which from the begining were EYEWITNESSES and ministers of the word. It seemed good to me also having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first to write to you in order most excellent Theophilus. That you might know the certainty of those things wherein you have been instructed. " Luke 1:2-4

Jesus even said himself "If they hear NOT Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31

Christians are undoubtedly the most selfish people in the entire world. "If I don't have a chance at getting into Heaven, then I don't see any reason to help anyone."

Well you say you like research. You might want to check out the many books out there over the years on those martyrs who gave their lives for others in the name of Christ. Christ said that many would die on account of him. For what? Telling others the good news? Ya, that's real selfish.

I don't believe in Christianity, but if you ask people that know me, you will find that I am honest to a fault. I am also very moral and ethical. My parents were not Christian. I have never believed in any religion. So, what has made me this way?

I don't doubt it. I know many ethical moral people who are NOT Christians. I've never doubted that. But from God's perspective none of us are good. We still have a darkness in our hearts (whether we admit it or not) that is tainted by sin. I do understand that many out there think we don't sin or we can be capable of not sinning.

earth is not all we have. I'm OK with having this life only. I'm OK with thinking that we're just dead when we die. I respect life even more for assuming that this is all there is. I don't need to believe that there was a man that died and was reincarnated...oops...I mean, "resurrected" who came here to "save us". All I need to know is that I am here and that living my life in a way that harms no one is the way to be.

Well maybe that's what Christ meant when he said those that believe in him not only have life but they have an "abundant life." We all have life but I believe that those in Christ (truly) do have an abundant life. It's hard to explain but it's true. I've been on both sides and understand there is more to life than what we see here.

It is selfish when the only reason you're doing it is so you can get brownie points with God and getting the foot in the door to heaven.

Helping people to see them smile, to know they're feeling better, that should be the only reward you really want.

~Zoo

and where are you getting that from? How can you judge another's motive?

So Daiho posts:

OckhamsRazor posts:


KarmaGirl posts:

No doubt, there are many without a belief in Christianity who give in their lives examples of moral conduct. It isn't new that a system of ethics can exist without a religion as in the case of Greek philosophers and rationalists while the ethics of Buddhism adapts or entwines themselves around the religion of the countries where it penetrates.

KarmaGirl asks, so what has made me this way?

In other words, how do /why/what makes unbelievers distinguish good from evil, right from wrong? Where does there sense of moral obligation come from?

I would suggest that Someone implanted that understanding in us, the laws of physics can't. In doing good conduct, you are most probably answering your voice of conscience hardwired by God for your own good. In doing good, in not being a serial killer, thief or child rapist, in being honest,ethical, and moral, you are in practice applying God's commandment of love. Distinguishing good and evil requires broad, even absolute standards and Someone competent to set those standards. That Someone is God who is our Beginning and our Last End.

From what's been said here:







No Jesus, no reason for good...at least that's what these quotes tell me. I'm all for living well for others and myself, God doesn't have to be the main focus for my good behavior. I want to help because I don't want others feeling bad...that's my reason. To do good on the basis of "If I do this, God will love me and I'm totally going to heaven" to me, seems rather selfish. Like a child try to get attention from a parent.

Being truly selfless and good comes about with no promise of a reward, be it money, love, or paradise...but maybe that's just me.

~Zoo

KarmaGirl posts:

There is an implicit but astonishing arrogance in the idea that all of the Apostles, all of the early Church, all of the written accounts of the Church Fathers and all the millions of ordinary Christians were fundamentally mistaken about Christ's rising from the tomb, leaving it empty, His departure leaving only sheets of His burial, for nineteen centuries now, and only a relatively few unbelievers, in a very different culture, 19 centuries later, finally understood Him and what really went on!!!

we don't do nice and good things because of a reward Zoo...sigh. You just don't get it do you? I don't beieve in a works based theology Zoo.

We do it because we love God and want to please him. We do it because he wants us to and we wish to be obedient. We do it because he showed us how. We do it because it best represents Christ, the one we are following. There was no greater lover than his was there? Can you show me one Atheist who would die for the whole world? How about Buddha? Did he? How about Mohammed? Did he? Even those that are blowing themselves up over in the middle east are doing so for purely selfish reasons. They are doing it for reward in the afterlife. Christ gave his life for the world and it was totally a selfless act. He gave his life for yours and mine Zoo. Nothing selfish about it.

We do these things because he gives us the love to be able to do so. Many people say to me....how in the world can you treat a person so nice that beats you up all the time? How can you be nice to so and so? I answer, it's not coming from me. I can only love the unloveable because God gives me what I need to do so. It's impossible for me to love others like I do on my own. I'm too human.

Remember the Amish people who were willing to forgive when their children were killed back a while ago? Many people asked the same question. How can you forgive such a horrendous thing? We love because God first loved us. The world didn't understand Zoo but the Christians did.

I don't know how many Christians over the years was willing to trade their lives for another. Happens all the time. THey are called Martyrs. It's all born out of love...not reward. They already have their reward.

I already know I'm going to heaven. So I'm not nice to you or anyone in hopes I get there. I don't believe in a works based theology.

KarmaGirl posts:

I would suggest this is a description of purpose is one serving "self".

This worldview, btw, comes as a consequence of belief in Evolution. It goes something like this: If humans descended from animals, why shouldn't humans behave like animals...emulate animals? If everything came into existence by chance and natural evolutionary processess evolved from one primordial cell, then we have no responsibility to the Supernatural Creator. Man should be the object of greatest concern not some fictitious Creator that weak-minded man actually created.

KarmaGirl posts:

You and me both...that is assuming you and I have the same definition of what "fanatical" means.   

That's what Jesus did...but he was already sinless. So yes, he was selfless and a true example of the pinnacle of giving without reward.

Though I'm a bit more pessimistic about other people. When you say that if your meaning is taken away, that you would revert to an uncaring attitude because there's "no reason." That denotes a hint of selfishness, in my mind anyway.



Are you really that confident? Heh, wish I could be...I'm not sure if I'm going up, down, or sideways.

~Zoo