Me too. I notice not even Harmartano addressed the pagan issue.

As a non-Christian, I still celebrate Xmas not out of some averted religiousness but because I believe in the spirit of the holiday. I believe it is a time to share with family and friends. The emphasis placed on giving gifts and the commercialism of the day is not surprising, given the world we live in.

No, it's just that the information is hardly unknown.

I love ya, man, but you're beating a tired drum on that one...lol!

Yeah, it's good for that.



Eh, but someone's got to play it from time to time. Otherwise it'll feel sad and lonely and we don't want even a drum feeling that way on Christmas.

~Zoo

Me too. I notice not even Harmartano addressed the pagan issue.

Sorry dynamaso, I did not see that it was necessary for me to address the pagan aspect of the celebration. There is so much in society that has been flavoured with pagan tradition, it would be virtually impossible to escape unless as Paul writing to the Corinthian church state, "for then must ye needs go out of the world".

There are probably some participants on other forums who would say to Christians.... why do you post with the non-Christian unbelievers on jU? Why not post on Christian forums where we all agree? They might in fact dynamaso hang their doctrine on what they understand the Apostle Paul wrote to the believers in Corinth........

" I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world."

If one continues to study out the text there in Corinthians they will find it is not the dynamaso's (non-Christians) that are being admonished against but the hamartano's....

"but now have I written unto you not to keep company if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or and idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or a n extortioner: with such an one no not to eat."

My point is dynamaso is that life and the things that we interact with on a daily basis are full of pagan and non-Christian beliefs and origins. To completely escape them "one must need go out of the world"; but God's word has given ample direction for the believer in this walk. Oft times it is not clear to all who look from without, but what must have clarity is what are the convictions of the believer based upon the Word of God, not the preacher, not the Sunday school teacher or our discussion on jU.

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's." Romans 14:5-8

I heard a preacher say one time that it is wrong to put up a Christmas Tree. He based his doctrine on the text found in Jeremiah 10-

"Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

I am of the opinion that the text in Jeremiah is not referring to the Christmas tree, although it could be something of equal spiritual import. The trees that were mentioned in Jeremiah were idols of worship (pagan if you please). The Christmas tree can be of the same sort, but not of necessity, for Jeremiah went on to say "Forasmuch as [there is] none like unto thee, O LORD; thou [art] great, and thy name [is] great in might."

You see dynamaso, pagan traditions are trumped when one places God and His greatness above the tradition. The tree has no pagan origin it was created by God, only what was done with it. Could it be that Christmas is the same? To him that esteemeth something is wrong... it is wrong. If our heart condemns us, He is greater than our heart. This may not mean a lot to you dynamaso as it is truths from God's word, but for the believer that understands what God is instructing in His word. It is power of conviction.

As a non-Christian, I still celebrate Xmas not out of some averted religiousness but because I believe in the spirit of the holiday. I believe it is a time to share with family and friends.

As I do my friend, only as a Christian. With regard to the commercialism, that is truly the sad part for we have convinced our society that Christmas can not be celebrated without money, and that is not so.

hamartano

 

Sorry, meant fall.

John 1:14 suggests that he was born during the Feast of Tabernacles (late Sept, early Oct.)
Luke 2:22 says that shepherds were in the field keeping watch over the flock by night (which they would have brought the flock in to shelter during that cold month).

So, you even know that December 25th is not his Birthday, so why do you still celebrate it as such?  Do you put up a "Christmas" tree?

Sorry, but you are just wanting to believe this.  Under the direction of Constantine, in 320 AD was when the church accepted Dec. 25th as the official date to celebrate the nativity- which just happened to be at the same time that the Catholic church was trying to convert Pagans who celebrate Saturnalia (which ended on Sol Invictus (Invincible Sun), and more precisely, the birth of of Mithra on December 25th.  This celebration first appeared on the Julian Calendar in 46 BC.

Let's look at the celebration of Saturnalia:
-Gift giving to rejoice the birth if Mithra
-lights to ward off evil spirits
-celebrate with festive meals
-Decorate evergreens to celebrate the eternal life of the Sol Invictus

There are many other things that they used evergreens for in the Solstice celebrations, but there is no need to go in to details here since the info is so readily available.

no need to go in to details here since the info is so readily available.

Thank-you for presenting what 'is so readily available' on the Internet.

Aeryck.

Attention: Did The Mithraic Mysteries Influence Christianity?

Here is a snack sample of what is discussed in detail at the link above....

Heading: Priming the Pump with parallels?

1. Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.

...............'First of all, Mithra was not born of a virgin in a cave; he was born out of solid rock, which presumably left a cave behind -- and I suppose technically the rock he was born out of could have been classified as a virgin! Here is how one Mithraic scholar describes the scene on Mithraic depictions: Mithra "wearing his Phrygian cap, issues forth from the rocky mass. As yet only his bare torso is visible. In each hand he raises aloft a lighted torch and, as an unusual detail, red flames shoot out all around him from the petra genetrix." [MS.173] Mithra was born a grown-up, but you won't hear the copycatters mention this!'................(considerably more to be read....if you dig digging to the rock...)

Just about everything is readily available on the internet, so what's your point (if you actually have one at all).

ummm...paganism existed prior to Christ's birth.  I'm really not sure how you can say that anyone is "copying" anyone else.

When you really look at all religions, you will find that all religions have one goal, and they all share similarities.  Do they "copy", or is it just many paths to the same destination?

 

When you really look at all religions, you will find that all religions have one goal, and they all share similarities.

All religions have one goal ? And that would be ?

I'm really not sure how you can say that anyone is "copying" anyone else.

I referred to an article that elaborated upon your 'thin' point........ 'the birth of of Mithra on December 25th'.

Do they "copy", or is it just many paths to the same destination?

One would first have to state what that destination is and consider if the pathways actually get there.

 

pssst...(my original point, was a compliment...?) "Thank-you for presenting what 'is so readily available' on the Internet."...(but one aught not to assume that everything on the Internet is either researched or true...so verify before you attempt to clarify. It takes a lot more than reading a few articles, or one ends up just making generalizations that are often misleading.)

lula posts:

KarmaGirl posts:

As has been said before CHrist is the reason for the season and therefore for Catholics, Christmas is a holy season...that being a time of wonder and awe of the coming of God Incarnate. Christ mas is the celebration of the Nativity of Our Lord.

KarmaGirl posts:

No one knows the actual date of Christ's birth...but as we have seen, there have certainly been lots of explanations about it being decided as Dec. 25th.

The early Christians commemorated the birth of our Savior in the feast of the Epiphany on Jan. 6th. After the end of the last great persecution,about 330, the Church in Rome (not Constantine) assigned December 25th for the celebration of the birth of Christ. The writings of the early Church Fathers and Doctors claimed that Dec. 25th as the actual date.

A second more theological symbolic explanation comes from the Old Testament Malachi 4:2 which calls the Messias the "Sun of Justice". It was argued that His birth coincided with the beginning of the new solar cycle and He was born of the winter solstice. This opinion was reckoned by way of figuring 6 months from the annunciation of St.John the Baptist, which was assumed was Sept. 24, and thus arriving at March 25th as the day of the Incarnation. 9 months later, on Dec. 25th would then be the birthday of the Lord.

And then there is the explanation that goes by the choice of Dec. 25th as coinciding with the feast of the Roman sun god, "Sol Invictus: the unconquered Sun". Dec. 25th was called the Birthday of the Son and a great holiday was celebrated by the Mithras cult throughout pagan Rome.

The Church's celebration on Dec. 25th was the worship and adoration of Christ the Lord who is the Light of the world and the true Sun of Justice. While in stark contrast, the pagans worshipped the material sun.

Every year without fail we hear the error that Christmas is a "Christianized pagan festival" or of the "pagan origins of Christmas". However, the Christians in the early centuries were keenly aware of the differences between the two..one pagan and one Christian on the same day.

Some of the newly converted Christians who thoughtlessly retained the external symbols of sun worship on Christmas Day were immediately reproved by their religious superiors and those abuses were repressed. Proof of this is in the writings and of the early Church Doctors and particularly the sermons of Saint Augustine and Pope Leo I (461).

It is an error to confuse Yule (solstice) and Christmas (Mass of Christ), as if both celebrations had a common origin. While it's certainly true that some popular features and symbols of our Christmas celebrations, (kissing under mistletoe), had their origins in pre-Christian Yuletide customs, Christmas itself, the feast, its meaning and message is in no way connected with any pagan mythology or Yule rite.



Thank you Aeyrck for nicely clearing this one up.

No one knows the actual date of Christ's birth

Certainly.

The early Christians commemorated the birth of our Savior in the feast of the Epiphany on Jan. 6th.

The Catholic Encyclopedia has quite a history of the Epiphany, this passage I found quite insightful.

'The question at once arises; did these Basilidians celebrate Christ's Nativity and also His Baptism on 6 and 10 January, or did they merely keep His Baptism on these days, as well as His Nativity on another date? The evidence, if not Clement's actual words, suggests the former. It is certain that the Epiphany festival in the East very early admitted a more or less marked commemoration of the Nativity, or at least of the Angeli ad Pastores, the most striking "manifestation" of Christ's glory on that occasion.'

All religions have one goal ? And that would be ?

To supplant the truth of God's word with their traditions and doctrines, thereby beguiling unstable souls as they allure through the lust of the flesh. Religion attempts to fill a very broad void in the soul of humanity. The sad thing is that it masquerades itself as the truth but cannot carry one to eternity with Christ.

When you really look at all religions, you will find that all religions have one goal, and they all share similarities. Do they "copy", or is it just many paths to the same destination?

karmaGirl, surely this statement is not true?

hamartano

Technically this is true. All religions in essence seek to give a person identity in society, place, and time regardless of the belief system.

As for this:



As the the saying goes, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." i.e. There's more than one way to get to a pleasant afterlife if indeed there is one.

~Zoo

As the the saying goes, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." i.e. There's more than one way to get to a pleasant afterlife if indeed there is one.

Spirit of anti-christ......

hamartano

You know, you're right. Your divisiveness IS the spirit of anti-christ, hamartano.

You know, you're right. Your divisiveness IS the spirit of anti-christ, hamartano.

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. "

It is not 'my divisiveness' that is the spirit of anti-christ sanchonino. It is the Word of God. The statement that ~zoo made is clearly false, according to the bible. That is why they went out.... the spirit of anti-christ cannot dwell in the midst of God's truth.

Did I not say that this thread would manifest that spirit?

Hamartano

If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household.

The gospel is divisive by its very nature. I can attest to this.

hamartano

This is true. Christ said..

"I did not come to unite, but to divide." It's the whole wheat and chaff thing. Many times in scripture it said "they were divided over him" or "there was a division on account of him."

It's the same here. It's the same anywhere. There's nothing new under the sun.

It's the same here. It's the same anywhere. There's nothing new under the sun.

Right you are my friend.

Peace
Hamartano

Oh? I'm the anti-christ now? Well, at least I'll be famous I guess.

~Zoo

~zoo the 1st epistle of John was written around 90 AD and it stated....

"as ye have heard that antichirst shall come, even now are there many antichrist, whereby we know it is the last time."

In this same epistle it says that the way we can know it is this antichrist spirit, is if it confesseth not that Christ is come in the flesh...

hamartano

hahahahaha hey Zoo, I'd say "infamous" but I guess it all comes down to which side you're on.   

There's still time to change your mind you know. It's not over until it's over.   

hahahahaha hey Zoo, I'd say "infamous" but I guess it all comes down to which side you're on.

To count it a light thing for one who dabbles with demons is not wise my friend. I work with a guy who frequents Bloody Mary's Church in New Orleans. His perception is that it is nothing more the mere entertainment. For the enemy of the cross, he counts it but joy.

One can not dance with the devil or his demons and not come away with some element of stench. Evil like perfume will wreak upon ones character.

hamartano

Now I'm a demon conjurer? Heh...you give me too much credit.

Wow, I guess you're a lot of things when you're not a fanatical Christian...didn't know God was so uptight.

~Zoo

Anytime you're not like them.

Hamartano posts:

Only false religion fits this description.

No one can deny the need for true religion which objectively speaking is the voluntary acknowledgment of man's dependence upon God through acts of homage. Religion is therefore an act of justice by which we render to God both privately as individuals and publicly as social beings the honor, gratitude, worship, and obedience to Him in the way prescribed by Him.

The practice of true religion is necessary for God has definite rights which no man is justified in ignoring. God definitely commands us to to adore and serve Him. "Thou shalt love thy God...this is the first and greatest Commandment." A person with no religion who never worships God, never says a prayer to HIm, is far from fullfilling this commandment of love. It is not enough to admit off-hand that God exists, and then ignore His definite claims.