Mumblefratz Mumblefratz

The MVL and the AltMeta

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The MVL and the AltMeta

from GalCiv2 Forums
OK guys, I've tried to bring up this topic of discussion subtly on a number of occasions all for naught. It seems that subtly is lost on the average MVL player, or perhaps put another way, the average MVL player has all the subtly of a ball peen hammer.

Anyway, it’s time to start discussing this directly. By this I mean I would like to get support for the MVL into the AltMeta. Kryo has expressed willingness to do this but wants a solid definition of precisely what it is that we want. This encompasses a number of potential issues.

Certainly at a minimum it would be nice if we have a fancy display of league results that all could view each month on the AltMeta. It would also be nice to be able to see past months results. Finally I’m sure all would like to be able to view these results on a league wide, team wide or individual basis.

Even regarding the "simple" display of league results there are probably very many ways to do this. I know when the Metaverse Council was discussing options relating to AltMeta Classes we found it helpful to sketch up something just for folks to look at, criticize and comment on. I have a couple of ideas that I will sketch up at some point when I get a chance however it would be nice if other folks could come up with a few ideas on their own (hint, hint ).

The next level of complexity that needs some discussion is a method of game submission to the league that could be a little more automated than posting images or words to a thread. As we’ve seen this requires the official scorers to go through a lot of posts for a limited amount of information and there are invariably a few folks that leave off a critical piece of information that then requires the scorer to check the player’s character.

The final level of complexity could involve a well defined set of scoring rules that could allow software to score each round automatically.

Regardless of all of the above there probably would be the need for someone to administer all of this.

Anyway, I hope that the potential of getting MVL support into the AltMeta is of interest to most players and that we can use this thread to decide what it is we want to do.

I do want to forewarn folks that this is not something that can be resolved quickly and easily and it will take folks that are willing to put in a little bit of effort to reach a good solution that we can be proud of and that pretty much everyone agrees on. All too often the attitude that I’ve seen in the League is one of "let’s hurry up and get this over with". If that’s the attitude of most folks then we probably shouldn’t even bother. If so then perhaps I should resurrect the corpses of the Metaverse Council and we should figure out what to do within that framework.   

Everyone should feel free to comment on any and all of these points that I’ve brought up or to bring up any others that they feel are related.

One of the first points I want to discuss is the issue that within the context of all of these MVL threads everyone thinks of MVL members in terms of their username not their character name (i.e. Mumblefratz instead of Toshiro Mifune). Clearly this isn’t that big a deal because I think folks can figure out who is who if required, however one thing to point out is that the AltMeta only knows about character names *not* user names.

Another point to consider is that it may be beneficial for everyone in the league to commit to join a single metaverse empire such as the MV League that thebutterfly has setup. A number of folks have joined that empire but a number of folks haven’t. It would be good to hear from Kryo if he thinks that would be a benefit and if so whether or not most folks would be willing to do it. If it simplifies things (and I think it would) perhaps we should simply make it a requirement.

So what do you think?
metaverse
82,227 views 182 replies
Reply #151 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I do not agree with the idea of being able to submit a back-up game for an absent player, using a different player's game.
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Well we currently have such a rule on the books as I discussed in the above post but also as I discussed there I feel we should leave it "as is" and handle it as a special circumstance through random assignment through the commissioner's office and backdoor incorporation into the ALtMeta via the Administrator. Any attempt at making this backup game something automatically selectable is probably doomed to failure not so much on the coding side but simply getting people to agree on how to go about it.
Reply #152 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Is this giving anyone else a headache too?
SoundPackager - Customize the Windows sound scheme
Reply #153 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
yes....its why I haven't chimed in for awhile; I was telling Neilo last night that at this point I don't even know what people are saying yes and no to anymore. And if I'm getting lost, then goodness help those that are not as involved.
Reply #154 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
testing new icon
Reply #155 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
yes....its why I haven't chimed in for awhile; I was telling Neilo last night that at this point I don't even know what people are saying yes and no to anymore. And if I'm getting lost, then goodness help those that are not as involved.
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You were asleep when I came on board, mind you it was like 3 in the morning. As for 2009, yeah possibly. I will not however discuss the last question here. Because as far as I can see, EVERYONE IS IN AGREEMENT   (to a point)
Reply #156 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Is this giving anyone else a headache too?
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yes. okay, going back to my previous point of debate, your reply, Mumble, is thoughtful. i agree there should be some penalty for a late submission, i just don't like the idea of it automatically be the last qualifying game. i don't think i have a better suggestion. even though i wouldn't vote for this, if it comes into play i won't sweat it. the eventuality we're debating is pretty unlikely in any event.
Reply #157 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I would agree to the automatic selection only as a last resort, if a player or captain has not been able to submit. But there is still a potential problem in that a game with apparently similar conditions would be selected by the automatic system, even if it did not have all the correct settings. This brings up the issue of posting similar non-MVL games to the Metaverse. So, when taking these two issues into account, and also the fact that the chance of players submitting similar games is small, I think it I would now vote for the automatic selection system (only as a last resort, as I said before), and also vote for banning players from submitting games with similar conditions to the Metaverse. (sorry for the run-on sentence!) If people do want to play similar map conditions, but still post, they can always save the endgame-save and post it at some other time, which I don't think is too much of an annoyance.
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Nor do i Kzinti, there would be few different ways one could get around what is essential a small problem. But further more are we debating an issue that is not relevant, if no one is playing other games with their MVL character then the issue is mute. so i ask, how many players actually use their MVL character for other games?

I do not agree with the idea of being able to submit a back-up game for an absent player, using a different player's game.
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On this issue as Mumble said, we could still treat each case on it's own merit and play the scenario outside of the AltMvl and solve it manually. The AltMvl Admin would submit whatever was decided himself, no automation in this regard. (what is to be decided in this case is for a further debate)

i agree there should be some penalty for a late submission, i just don't like the idea of it automatically be the last qualifying game.
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That is a fair call mate, that is why we slightly modified the rule to be that the system would pick one of your games randomly.

Eg - Dystopic has submitted 3 games into the MV that meet the current rounds requirements. His first submitted game is a dud, the 2nd a reasonable score and the third, good enough for fastest game. For whatever reason he cannot get back online to log into the AltMvl and select his game 3. So as per team strategy and discussion, his captain after waiting till the last minute to give Dystopic ample time to submit himself, attempts to log in to the AltMvl to submit on his behalf. Unfortunately, the AltMvl is down for some repair and he cannot submit.

The last resort....
So now the deadline has been reached and Dystopic has no game recorded for the round. The software picks up on this and randomly selects one of Dystopic's 3 games, and submits that into the round.

Now that event happening is quite remote. You are 90% of the time going to have done your submition yourself, if not your captain will have you covered.

The advantage is, if you are happy with game 1 that you submitted to the MV and you play no other MVL games that round, you or your captain need do nothing. The system will pick up your game and submit it for you. Many will not use this feature, but i'm sure many will too.

But yes, if you are diligent this is a last resort.

Hope that explains it mate.
Reply #158 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Nor do i Kzinti, there would be few different ways one could get around what is essential a small problem. But further more are we debating an issue that is not relevant, if no one is playing other games with their MVL character then the issue is mute. so i ask, how many players actually use their MVL character for other games?
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I dont know the answer to that, but I do know that I do not have any free characters for strictly MVL games, so for me personally the question is not moot. I cant speak for anyone else on the subject.

Is this giving anyone else a headache too?
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If Mumble is getting tired of talking about something, then we're in trouble!   

Kzinti empire2.JPG Sentient species taste better...
Reply #159 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
...welcome to the wonderful world of the subcommittee...
Reply #160 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
If Mumble is getting tired of talking about something, then we're in trouble!
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Yes, you do have to keep a sense of humor about all of this.

Sometimes these post scroll by so quickly you wonder if the points you've made have even been seen half the time. It does seem that folks are coming around to the inevitability of my point of view (just kidding, er sort of).

I think my best argument against team/captain selection of "backup" games is the point that we already have some rules related to this that have been in play for multiple rounds although they have yet to be put to use. These rules cover the selection of a player to play a "backup" game which is similar though not identical to what we're talking about here. Anyway those rules have been consistent in giving the commissioner's office the power to "randomly" select the player to play a replacement game. The point of view of allowing the team/captain to select a replacement game from the player's or other teammates games runs totally counter to the precedents that we have.

This then makes the discussion we've been having more about changing the rules regarding replacement game selection instead of a discussion about how we implement the current set of rules within the AltMeta. Basically what I'm saying is this isn't the time or place to discuss replacing the current set of rules that revolve around the selection of backup games. We already have rules related to this and the discussion should be how it's best to implement those rules in the AltMeta and not about bringing up objections to already established precedent.
Reply #161 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Is it my eyes, but has all this debate put some fur on your lip Mumble? Now your going to say it has always been there, aren't you......

So as for the three original points, i think...think..that we have an agreement...yes?

Perhaps point 3 needs some attention or are we all happy with some limitations as to what games we play with our MVL characters?
Reply #162 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Oh bugger, two days. It was just two bloody days...

I have an idea. Instead of having the software or neilo or me randomlly select a game. We would ask the team how many games they've completed overall and select the worst one from the non-submitted games.

i.e.

4 players in a team, one is a no-show and he has no game completed for the round at all. Lets say, Mumble and Motti is on that team. So thats a 50% chance that either Mumble or Motti will be picked. If they are, the rest of us will, of course, lose. Instead of that we select the lowest scoring worst game of the team that satisfies the round's settings and that is picked for the no-show player. If they don't have any game other then the league submissions then as a last resort, we will randomly assign a player to complete that game.

This way, there is still some backdrop for not submitting then a chance backdrop.

If not then I suggest that he should get the proper training prior to him having to implement this in real time.
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Random number generator.

Need I remind folks that we have barely begun to scratch the surface of what is involved with this and if our current rate of progress is any indication then I will be surprised if we finish this before 2009.
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We should start being concise and to the point.

how many players actually use their MVL character for other games?
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I do. My MVL character is my main character and I play only smaller maps. But I agree to take this restriction. Its not that big.


Sidenote: Have you grown a moustache, mumble?
Reply #163 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Sidenote: Have you grown a moustache, mumble?
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I thought I did but I made the change to my icon and it didn't change. Then a few hours later it did, so OK. But then I didn't make any more changes (or at least I think I didn't) and now it's gone again. It must be like type ahead. It wasn't a very good moustache anyway.

Random number generator.
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OK.

I have an idea. Instead of having the software or neilo or me randomlly select a game. We would ask the team how many games they've completed overall and select the worst one from the non-submitted games.
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Forget it. As I mentioned we have a rule in play already that involves the random selection of the player to play a backup game. Period. End of story. The point of this discussion is not to change rules we have but to figure out how to most easily incorporate the rules we have into the AltMeta. If people want to change rules then that's fine they can bring it up in the rules thread because this isn't the place to discuss rule changes.

But I agree to take this restriction. Its not that big.
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Great, it really isn't that big a restriction. Once you submit your league game then there's no confusing any game. Also even if you haven't yet submitted your league game in a single victory round you only have to avoid games with the same galaxy size *and* victory condition. The biggest imposition is during an all victory condition round where you can't play another game of the same galaxy size (unless of course it's played with the rounds settings and therefore qualifies as a potential league game).

This is a small price to pay for the confidence to know that if someone didn't happen to submit a game but there is a MV game under their character that *looks* like a league game then it is a league game.

[edit] Also from Kryo's earlier response it seems clear that we can take a snapshot of any game submitted so that if you later want to resubmit a league game to the metaverse for whatever purpose you should be able to do so. I think the only question is whether or not you need to wait until the end of the round to do so. I would expect that the software wouldn't require this but we may want to leave "tracks" as to how we got the final results just in case the administrator needs to "unwind" something for some as yet unknown reason. [/edit]
Reply #164 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
OK, well...after having tread the treacherous shark infested waters of pages 3 and 4

Yes-I think the captain's password system, and then handed out, is best

Yes- I completely agree (100%, no qualms whatsoever) with Neilo's assessment of how a non submitted game is chosen (the you have 3 chances thing: individual, captain, altmeta software)

Yes- I am for the limited restrictions, which as you say Mumble generally minor and short-lived.

For the record I do have a character I use solely for the MVL, my other character is strictly Tyranny.

I am in agreement with Mumble, Firebender, I completely disagree with the proposal about the lowest game being chosen.

I am also in agreement with Mumble's assessment in regard to Dystopic's hypothetical scenario; in that particular case one is knowingly risking their submission, and must deal with the consequences thereof, good or bad.

So, yeah, i'm just very agreeable today.

If I have missed anything, well...its a lot to read guys
Reply #165 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yes-I think the captain's password system, and then handed out, is best

Yes- I completely agree (100%, no qualms whatsoever) with Neilo's assessment of how a non submitted game is chosen (the you have 3 chances thing: individual, captain, altmeta software)

Yes- I am for the limited restrictions, which as you say Mumble generally minor and short-lived.

For the record I do have a character I use solely for the MVL...

I am in agreement with Mumble, Firebender, I completely disagree with the proposal about the lowest game being chosen.

I am also in agreement with Mumble's assessment in regard to Dystopic's hypothetical scenario; in that particular case one is knowingly risking their submission, and must deal with the consequences thereof, good or bad.
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after sleeping on it, i'm in agreement with every point Silverbeacher made.
Reply #166 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
If I have missed anything, well...its a lot to read guys
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If you find all of this difficult to read and keep up with imagine how difficult it is to have to write all this stuff. I have had to author 56 of the 165 posts in this thread and counting. And these are by no means short little single paragraph posts. This is 1/3 of the thread if you go by post count and although I have no intention of counting, I'm sure it's even more lopsided if you go by word count.

The thing is that it's so very easy to throw a monkey wrench into the discussion by making an off the wall suggestion. You can suggest some scheme in two sentances that takes me, neilo and others 10,000 words to resolve and then get the discussion back on track.

I don't want people to take this to mean that I don't want people to make suggestions or disagree with proposals, however I would appreciate it if people gave very serious thought to something and made sure the issue is significant enough before they take the discussion down some rat hole.

The thing with the team/captain selection of replacement games is a case in point. I don't doubt that at least 50,000 words were written in this thread trying to squash that notion. And the point of it is was that we already had a set of rules regarding how replacement games are to be treated and random selection was at the core of those rules.

The point is that it takes so little to object and say that you disagree with something and it takes so much to outline, present and defend a consistent plan.

I want to repeat that I'm not trying to stifle dissent or the presentation of ideas that I may not agree with, I'm just asking people to realize how much harder it is to build something up rather than tear something down. but if you truly disagree with something and it's important to you (and not just that you think it *may* be important to someone else) then I absolutely do want you to object and suggest alternatives. Just give a thought first to the consequences of your objection or suggestion.
Reply #167 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
If I have missed anything, well...its a lot to read guys

If you find all of this difficult to read and keep up with imagine how difficult it is to have to write all this stuff. I have had to author 56 of the 165 posts in this thread and counting. And these are by no means short little single paragraph posts. This is 1/3 of the thread if you go by post count and although I have no intention of counting, I'm sure it's even more lopsided if you go by word count.

The thing is that it's so very easy to throw a monkey wrench into the discussion by making an off the wall suggestion. You can suggest some scheme in two sentances that takes me, neilo and others 10,000 words to resolve and then get the discussion back on track.

I don't want people to take this to mean that I don't want people to make suggestions or disagree with proposals, however I would appreciate it if people gave very serious thought to something and made sure the issue is significant enough before they take the discussion down some rat hole.

The thing with the team/captain selection of replacement games is a case in point. I don't doubt that at least 50,000 words were written in this thread trying to squash that notion. And the point of it is was that we already had a set of rules regarding how replacement games are to be treated and random selection was at the core of those rules.

The point is that it takes so little to object and say that you disagree with something and it takes so much to outline, present and defend a consistent plan.

I want to repeat that I'm not trying to stifle dissent or the presentation of ideas that I may not agree with, I'm just asking people to realize how much harder it is to build something up rather than tear something down. but if you truly disagree with something and it's important to you (and not just that you think it *may* be important to someone else) then I absolutely do want you to object and suggest alternatives. Just give a thought first to the consequences of your objection or suggestion.
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I disagree   
Reply #168 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
and thats why we are lucky to have you Mumblefratz; this may be a passion for Neilo but can you even imagine the chaos that could ensue? I try not to.
Reply #169 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Another Summary,

Point 1 - We are agreed.

Point 2 - I believe FB is the only No Vote.

Point 3 - It seems we are getting a general agreement that a slight restriction is acceptable.

If we are happy to now move on to the next issue, then i would suggest, Mumble, start another thread...might be easier on us all...The MVL and the AltMeta - Part 2....

If there is anyone who has still concerns over the original 3 points of disscusion please post now...or forever hold your peace....
Reply #170 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I like holding my peace...

Lets move to the next issues

Reply #171 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I disagree   
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Mr. Potato Head.

Lets move to the next issues
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Probably a good idea.

At the moment I need to spend a bit of time on this month's game or I'll risk being one of the dreaded non-submissions.

One thing that I have been considering is to essentially write up everything that I can think of describing how the MVL works that Kryo could use as a guide to implement the Altmeta MVL. Clearly without some level of agreement and approval from the rest of the league such a document has little validity, however it does have the advantage of getting everything on paper so that people can look at a complete implementation before beginning to pick at every little detail on a piecemeal basis.

I pretty much did the same kind of thing when we were discussing the AltMeta Classes and it was useful to have as a framework from which we then "adjusted" to fit the general concensus. The big issue is that I think this document will be significantly more work than the one I did for the original AltMeta, however on the other hand probably not that much more work than has been involved in writing 57 replies to this thread and having perhaps 2 or 3 proposals that are starting to gain concensus to show for it.

Anyway, it really depends on what people would think the worth of such a document would be. I certainly have enough to do without trying to effectively write a thesis, but if folks think that such a thing would be helpful I'm willing to do it. What do you think?
Reply #172 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
First and foremost, PLAY YOUR GAME -and have fun

If, by writing this dissertation, you feel that this will give the MVL-AltMeta its needed working foundation, then that is your choice and I commend you.

I will say to others that if Mumblefratz does decide to go ahead and do this that unless you have a very specific point that you wish to bring up and ALSO have very specific reasonings and explanations behind it, I humbly ask that you would let him work in peace.

Think of it this way, if you are asked to write a 30 page report for your group and you've completed the rough draft and your first half and then all of sudden your group decides that they want to do something else altogether...that is a lot of work wasted, or time needed spent to defend keeping the work that is done.
Reply #173 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
First and foremost, PLAY YOUR GAME -and have fun
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Will do.

I will say to others that if Mumblefratz does decide to go ahead and do this that unless you have a very specific point that you wish to bring up and ALSO have very specific reasonings and explanations behind it, I humbly ask that you would let him work in peace.
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Actually, suggestions can be helpful. I was all set to push for the individual submission method thereby forcing everyone to register for an account on Kryo's site (not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself) and PlayJeff (I think) asked the simple question of if we went with the captain method could the captain share the password with his teammates. This simple and direct question resulted in what I think is a simpler and better way to go.

In that light I would say that it's not necessary for me to work in a vacuum, in fact it's better if I do have good ideas from folks to add. The one point is that I will refrain from going into needless argument and will incorporate ideas that I agree with and most likely ignore ideas that I don't.

However just because I ignore a suggestion doesn't mean it's not valid or not something that most people may approve of. I make no claim to infallibility, and anything that I neglect or ignore is fair game to discuss and possibly add once I have my initial "working document". It's just that until I can present at least a relatively complete "rough draft" going into minute detail on any one point is probably counter-productive.

In that light let's leave this thread as a "suggestion box" for my write-up. Hopefully I can have something to begin to look at by Dec 7th or so. That gives me a week to work on something once I finish up this months game.
Reply #174 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Thank you Mumble, and good luck with it, I will refrain from anything until I see what has been proposed. Some may think I am hard headed, however in reality I want to know everything so that there is no confusion  
Reply #175 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
By all means Mumble, if you believe this will give Kryo the best understanding of how the league works, then please, be our guest. I'm sure it will make it far easier for him than browsing through all of our threads, and you and i both know what that can be like.

My only concern would be writing anything that is relevant now but would change with our inclusion to the AltMeta.

it was useful to have as a framework from which we then "adjusted" to fit the general concensus.
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Though i feel this comment probably just answered that.

Please feel free to ask of me anything you may need, my wish is to see the league become as user friendly and accessible to the entire community as we could possibly make it. Your efforts are welcomed and applauded, actually i could not think of anyone better to write up such a document.

this may be a passion for Neilo
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What, reading posts? But yes, i do love doing this stuff, as i suspect Mumble does, without the over abundance of post checking.