G-D Does NOT need a Intermediary

from JoeUser Forums

The idea G-D who is all powerful, all knowing and all seeing , needing prayers to go through someone else to reach his ears is beyond silly if you take a moment to think about it, and then to think that only one specific group of people are worthy of communing with him to the exclusion of all others is beyond rational thought!

The idea that all the childrens prayers in written form start off with "dear G-d"" will not reach him if it somehow does not make a stop at Jesus desk first is cruel and mean spirited. To believe that only G-d knows how many childrens prayers from many other religions besides Christianity falls on deaf ears because the prayers were not offered in Jesus name, is once again Not G-dly.

This weekend I went to a wedding in a Catholic Church, at the front of the Church was a depiction of Jesus being crucified, I saw people kneeing in front of this Idol, worshiping and when done making the sign of the cross. This is against one of the Ten Commandments:

"TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." Yes that whole graven Image thing rears its ugly head.

I saw Images depicting Mary and people touching the image and praying, "holy Mary mother of G-d" were some of the words I heard. What? Mary has now been elevated to being G-ds Mother? Even Colleen was blown away by this display of heathen behavior.

If you believe in G-d, the creator of all things, somehow 2000 odd years ago got tired and decided he needed help answering prayers, you need to check you belief system again, If you believe in G-d, who is all love, decided that only one group of people, be them Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Shinto, or Christian were worthy of him listening to and answering prayers, you have checked your humanity at the womb!

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Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top

I don't think people are worshipping an idol when they say a prayer in front of a crucifix.  They are not praying to the object or the thing but to Jesus whom it represents. 

Holy Mary, mother of God are words to the prayer Hail Mary and the words are directly from the Bible from when Mary visited John the Baptists mother, Elizabeth.  The rest goes "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death".  Mary was Jesus mother, therefore the mother of God.  That gives her special status, not that she is needed as a go between but some people find solace in a mother figure to pray for intercession.  Saying a prayer to Mary is kind of like me saying to you, put in a good word for me with someone that you are close to or asking her to help you too. 

Also Catholics believe that God is one being in three divine persons, the Father (probably who most people think of when they think of "God", the son, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.  If you pray to one, you pray to all because they are all one. 

I am not a Catholic apologist but I was raised in the Catholic church and this is my understanding of the points you brought up. 

Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
LocamamaNovember 7, 2007 14:37:39


The rest goes "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death". Mary was Jesus mother, therefore the mother of God.


Heresy! Plain and simple.
Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
MM:

It is my understanding that only the high priest could go into the Temple's Holy of Holies and make the annual sacrifice for the Jewish people on the day of atonement. God doesn't NEED an intermediary, but He USES intermediaries for the atonement of sin. The high priest for Christians is Jesus, the intermediary between God and us, who atones for us.

This does NOT mean that God doesn't hear prayers. He hears all prayers. They don't have to 'go through' Jesus.

That's why the praying to Mary thing never sat right with me. You can pray to Jesus, who stands before the throne and interceeds for us (and is God), or you could pray to God, who is the father, but Mary isn't God - Mary is special, for sure, but she's not God.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top

 

Reply By: JythierPosted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007

 

This does NOT mean that God doesn't hear prayers. He hears all prayers. They don't have to 'go through' Jesus.

That's why the praying to Mary thing never sat right with me. You can pray to Jesus, who stands before the throne and interceeds for us (and is God), or you could pray to God, who is the father, but Mary isn't God - Mary is special, for sure, but she's not God.

Ok this I understand, Why is it then that so many Christians insist that if you do not go through Jesus and recognize him as the son of G-D or sometimes G-D in one of three forms {Father, Son and holy Ghost} your prayers will not be answered?

Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't know. As far as my personal beliefs, prayer is answered regardless of whether Jesus is specifically recognized as the son of God or part of the trinity. However, just as with Christians, the answer may still be 'no'.

As for salvation, that is through Jesus. He's the high priest, the intermediary, the only one who can (and did) atone for our sins. It is my belief that if you pray for salvation you will be led to Jesus.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply By: JythierPosted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007

I don't know. As far as my personal beliefs, prayer is answered regardless of whether Jesus is specifically recognized as the son of God or part of the trinity. However, just as with Christians, the answer may still be 'no'.

As for salvation, that is through Jesus. He's the high priest, the intermediary, the only one who can (and did) atone for our sins. It is my belief that if you pray for salvation you will be led to Jesus.

Well there is the confusion, if Jesus and G-D are one and the same why would I need to go through the Jesus persona of G-D to get to G-D??

Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
That's a very good question, MM. It is my understanding that you don't, except to get to heaven.

The penalty for sin is spiritual death. This penalty needs to be paid. Who paid your debt? Well, if you don't believe in Jesus, there's a void there - nobody paid your debt, so you will have to. If you believe in Jesus, and accept his gift of paying your debt, your debt is paid. You have eternal life spiritually, because the debt's already been repaid.

This is, of course, just my understanding of my faith as of today.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
I am not a Catholic apologist but I was raised in the Catholic church and this is my understanding of the points you brought up.


Locamama, up in reply #1, you did good!   

Well there is the confusion, if Jesus and G-D are one and the same why would I need to go through the Jesus persona of G-D to get to G-D??


MM,

In Old Covenant, think of the priesthood of Aaron who belonged to the tribe of Levi in Leviticus 28. Aaron was the first High Jewish Priest. What did he do as High Priest? He offered sacrifices at the altar....as High Priest he was to be mediator between Jews and God, right?

It was a priesthood 'according to the carnal commandment' said St.Paul in Hebrews 7:17 and destined to give way to the "priesthood of the order of Melchidesec, a priesthood without genealogy, restored in Christ, the Eternal High Priest.

Does this help you better understand that Christ is the one Mediator of redemption for all now?

No one else can claim for himself, including the Blessed Mother of Christ, the Mediatorship of redemption or ransom for all. That belongs exclusively to Christ.







Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
(Citizen)JythierNovember 7, 2007 17:33:15


That's a very good question, MM. It is my understanding that you don't, except to get to heaven.

The penalty for sin is spiritual death. This penalty needs to be paid. Who paid your debt? Well, if you don't believe in Jesus, there's a void there - nobody paid your debt, so you will have to. If you believe in Jesus, and accept his gift of paying your debt, your debt is paid. You have eternal life spiritually, because the debt's already been repaid.

This is, of course, just my understanding of my faith as of today.


We Jews have a payment for our sins, it's called Yom Kippur, meaning the day of atonement, We fast completely from sundown to sundown, spend the day in prayer and reflection on the past year, including the sins we have committed, we go directly to G-D to beg for his forgiveness. We need no one to intercede for us, we go to the source of all things G-d Him/Herself.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
lulapilgrimNovember 7, 2007 18:20:37


MM,

In Old Covenant, think of the priesthood of Aaron who belonged to the tribe of Levi in Leviticus 28. Aaron was the first High Jewish Priest. What did he do as High Priest? He offered sacrifices at the altar....as High Priest he was to be mediator between Jews and God, right?


unneeded ceremony. We all have G-Ds ear A Rabbi is no closer to G-d than I am.

It was a priesthood 'according to the carnal commandment' said St.Paul in Hebrews 7:17 and destined to give way to the "priesthood of the order of Melchidesec, a priesthood without genealogy, restored in Christ, the Eternal High Priest.


That is a huge "IF" one believes Jesus is the Messiah, I do not.

.
Does this help you better understand that Christ is the one Mediator of redemption for all now?


Again you leave out the vast Majority of the worlds population, this again is typical" Jesus is the only way to G-d" NOT!

!
No one else can claim for himself, including the Blessed Mother of Christ, the Mediatorship of redemption or ransom for all. That belongs exclusively to Christ.


No it belongs exclusively to G-D.


Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
We Jews have a payment for our sins, it's called Yom Kippur, meaning the day of atonement, We fast completely from sundown to sundown, spend the day in prayer and reflection on the past year, including the sins we have committed, we go directly to G-D to beg for his forgiveness. We need no one to intercede for us, we go to the source of all things G-d Him/Herself.



Nothing wrong with going directly to the Almighty Lord our God..we do too...every time we pray the Our Father aka the Lord's Prayer which Christ taught...


I'm curious though, what if you desire to reflect upon your sins on a time other than Yom Kippur, what then?

Also, what if you wait all year for this one time, and something happens, say your sick in bed and miss this occasion? What then?


Catholics also have a couple of ways for making reparation for sin. The function of our priests is to offer the Sacrifice of the Mass in commemoration of Him at the Last Supper which is one form.
An other form is the Sacrament of Confession. And again, this also comes under mediation of sorts. When Christ said to His Apostles, "whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven them", He made priests mediators of the confessional, although we believe Christ is present.





Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
No one else can claim for himself, including the Blessed Mother of Christ, the Mediatorship of redemption or ransom for all. That belongs exclusively to Christ.


No it belongs exclusively to G-D.


Ya, but when you're talking to me or I'm talking to you, Christ IS God.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
MM,

In Old Covenant, think of the priesthood of Aaron who belonged to the tribe of Levi in Leviticus 28. Aaron was the first High Jewish Priest. What did he do as High Priest? He offered sacrifices at the altar....as High Priest he was to be mediator between Jews and God, right?


unneeded ceremony.


See, that's the point. The High priest offering the sacrifices at the altar for the expiation of all the sins of Israel was "the Law" back then, but undeeded now?

We all have G-Ds ear A Rabbi is no closer to G-d than I am.


I understand this.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
That is a huge "IF" one believes Jesus is the Messiah, I do not.


I know, but there's always hope for you yet!   
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
Does this help you better understand that Christ is the one Mediator of redemption for all now?


Again you leave out the vast Majority of the worlds population, this again is typical" Jesus is the only way to G-d" NOT!


No, MM. I said that Christ was the ONE Mediatior of Redemption for all, not that Christ was the ONLY Mediator. Big difference.

Anyone can intercede on our behalf to God. Didn't you ask prayers for your nephew Chris? That was you interceding to us on his behalf. All prayers, petitions and requests to God, if asked with a clean heart, are good whether directly or asked through an intercessory mediation.



Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply By: Locamama

I will read the other comments in a minute, but your response here is excellent.  And to the point.  That is how it is supposed to be, but I have seen some that do pray to the icons and Mary, instead of praying for intercession.  The former is heresay, but they usually do not understand the difference (the ones so doing).

Great response.

Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top

Ok, Hoakie time.  Remember "It's a Wonderful life"?  At the beginning, the angels were talking to each other and listening to all the people asking God to help george Bailey out.  Is that wrong MM?

Asking Mary (not praying to) to interceed on your behalf is the same thing.  Perhaps her voice has no more weight than anyone elses when it comes to God (but as the mother of Jesus, people naturally assume that one's mother has more pull with you than does another person).  But then it does not hurt to have a chorus of people praying for you either, does it?  Here on JU, we are often asked for prayers for individuals.  The requestor is not praying to us, but asking us to pray for the person in question.

So it is with prayers of Intercession.  You are asking others (in this case the saints, or Mary) to pray for you to God.

Now, as I indicated in my first response, there are some that actually do pray to Icons and Mary.  This is more an issue of ignorance, and not some type of blashpemy.  They simply do not understand what they are doing, or really why.  And it is not a teaching of the church.

You said that you saw some praying to the Cruxifiction.  That is a very powerful symbol in the Catholic church, but that is all it is.  Just a statue of a symbol.  It would shock some people to know that at my church, we have crosses, but the only Cruxifiction in it is a mobile one that is used during Lent for the stations of the cross prayer service.  None are affixed to the structure.  It is a new church.  Built about 10 years ago.  And many of the churches (Catholic) built recently are just like mine (indeed, it was my cousin's church that we got our idea of how to structure the worship space from - and his was built back in the 70s).

The older structures, built pre Vatican II, are usually modeled after the Cathedrals of Europe, so there is a lot of Stained glass and yes statues.  And the reason for those ornate decorations has really nothing to do with the faith, but with man's ego to make the house of God the most ornate structure in the community.  Should nto God's house (their way of thinking hundreds of years ago) be the best one in the community? Their value system was that the most powerful and influential among us had the best houses, and thus the Cathedrals were born (and the mystique grew up around them).

Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply By: lulapilgrimPosted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007
Does this help you better understand that Christ is the one Mediator of redemption for all now?



Again you leave out the vast Majority of the worlds population, this again is typical" Jesus is the only way to G-d" NOT!


No, MM. I said that Christ was the ONE Mediatior of Redemption for all, not that Christ was the ONLY Mediator. Big difference.

Anyone can intercede on our behalf to God. Didn't you ask prayers for your nephew Chris? That was you interceding to us on his behalf. All prayers, petitions and requests to God, if asked with a clean heart, are good whether directly or asked through an intercessory mediation.

Who else plays such a role as mediator between man and G-d?

Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
MM,

Take a look at Mythra and then take that and hold it up to Catholicism.

Cheat sheet:

god the father (Nimrod) ----- god the father

Mother of god (Ishtar sounds like Easter) ----- Mary mother of god

son of god became sun god (Tammuz) ---- son of god became sun god (Sunday worship)

Note Tammuz is believed to have been born at winter solstice. Hmmm what other holiday is there near there? Oh Yeah X-mas. Ishtar was the mother of Tammuz through a immaculate conception after Nimrod's death. She was classified as a fertility god. mmmmm easter eggs and rabbits.

There are some tantalizing tidbits to wet your curiosity MM.

Note to Catholics:
I don't have animosity towards you as a person (non-Catholics included) please please understand that. I understand we are all trying to get to the same place.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
Who else plays such a role as mediator between man and G-d?


good question
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top

 

Reply By: Dr GuyPosted: Thursday, November 08, 2007
Ok, Hoakie time. Remember "It's a Wonderful life"? At the beginning, the angels were talking to each other and listening to all the people asking God to help george Bailey out. Is that wrong MM?

Nope, tis a wonderful thing.

So it is with prayers of Intercession. You are asking others (in this case the saints, or Mary) to pray for you to God.

Ok this is clear and I can get behind this kind of reasoning.

 

You said that you saw some praying to the Cruxifiction. That is a very powerful symbol in the Catholic church, but that is all it is. Just a statue of a symbol. It would shock some people to know that at my church, we have crosses, but the only Cruxifiction in it is a mobile one that is used during Lent for the stations of the cross prayer service. None are affixed to the structure. It is a new church. Built about 10 years ago. And many of the churches (Catholic) built recently are just like mine (indeed, it was my cousin's church that we got our idea of how to structure the worship space from - and his was built back in the 70s).
 

To please my ex wife I attended several Church experiences. While there I heard entire prayers go straight to Jesus, period, no mention of G-d,, same with Mary praying to her to answer what it was they needed,. This I cannot understand nor can I support in any way. From your writings it sounds like you think the same as I, At least concerning those two matters.

Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
"This I cannot understand nor can I support in any way."

I've had to remind myself lately: You can tell people what you believe. After that, it's all God. You can't make someone believe the same as you. God might be okay with the prayers to Mary, I don't think so, but He might. That's something they'll have to take up with God.
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
God might be okay with the prayers to Mary,


I agree Jythier but it is the why I usually disagree with. I cannot say for Western Catholicism but Eastern Orthodox teach that they pray to Mary because she was the mother of Jesus and can tell him what to do. I find this quite appalling.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
I just can't see Jesus living in his mother's basement, ordered around by her every whim.
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
I just can't see Jesus living in his mother's basement, ordered around by her every whim.


I would say the same thing but I know a few Rabbi's who do live in their parent's basement (yes semi non-related subject I know).

Hmmm, I'm feeling a song coming on.....

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