The Idea of Reality is Not Reality

Consciousness is awareness of existence; it is not an existent itself. Therefore existence must come before consciousness.

If a tree falls in a forest with no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?
Yes.

What is tree before we call it a tree?
A living organism that uses photosynthesis to convert sunlight into energy.

What is fall, before we call it fall?
Gravity winning a tugawar contest.

What is sound, before we call it sound?
Various wavelengths of pressure waves.

A consciousness aware only of itself is a contradiction. The mind does not create reality it is simply a biological instrument that can detect various forms of existence or “reality” that was already there.

Stubbyfinger, good attempt. You are using concepts to point at additional concepts. This is an example of a cognitive tautology.

So, what is a "living organism" before we call it such? And photosynthesis? Processes we see, identify and categorize with a categorical mind, not the things themselves.

A mind does indeed create a reality and there are as many realities as there are minds. In fact, show me a reality without a mind to call it a reality and you'll be the master.


Here's another: show me a piece of paper with only one side.

Be well.

Since I can read what you wrote we know that we see the characters the same way. So if we’re creating our own reality then our minds must be part of a single consciousness. If we are all part of a single consciousness that creates its own reality to be shared by its individual parts, then when humanity learns something new that knowledge was already known by the single consciousness then simple revealed to its individual parts. Which would not only suggest a separate consciousness but a consciousness aware of existence.

Here's another: show me a piece of paper with only one side.

Sure I’ll just create my own realty.

Oh boy...I could really go off on some metaphysical discussion on this...in fact my mind is wondering there...unfortunately I have a religion class to attend in about a half hour...so no floating off into my mind until later.

~Zoo

A piece of paper has 6 sides.

On the topic, though, looking at reality without the mind is like smelling the color nine. Nine's not a color. And even if it was you can't smell a color.

Reality is all a construct of your imagination, your ability to interpret the waves of light and sound waves through your senses. Or not even that. Perhaps even the light and sound waves are constructed in your imagination, as well. Perhaps your body is a mere figment of your imagination. Perhaps nothing exists at all. Perhaps your conciousness is a figment of your imagination, too. Perhaps your imagination is not even real, as well. Perhaps you're really just a figment of MY imagination.

More likely though, there is a reality, and a truth, out there, that needs to be found using the mind. Without the mind, all you'll see is what there is to see. All you'll hear is what there is to hear. All you'll feel is what there is to feel. And you will completely miss the underlying story being told by God's creation.

Of course, that is probably the purpose of Buddhism - to miss the point so thoroughly that the ultimate achievement is realization there is no point.

I think that reality is best defined as the shared delusions of the majority.

~Zoo

I dunno I'm thinking you can if it's in a box, of say 24, and made out of wax.

hahahahah count me in.....the minority.

Good Morning. Interesting points of view, all. Thank you.

Jthier writes: Of course, that is probably the purpose of Buddhism - to miss the point so thoroughly that the ultimate achievement is realization there is no point.

I had to smile at this. The point of Zen is to discover the ultimate truth which is really two truths intertwined. There is an Absolute, as Stubbyfinger alludes to , Mind (what he is calling consciousness) and the Relative truth. We express it this way: form is emptiness and emptiness is form. To put in theistic terms, God is everything and everything is God. God manifests as form, yet is also God, the infinite. Or for non-theists, wave is water and water is wave. Form aware of itself as form, but ignorant (deluded) of its awareness of its true self, fears. It might see its brothers and sisters crashing at the shoreline and fear this end to its existence. Once it is aware of its true nature, however, there is nothing to fear. Awareness of its form and its nature does not stop it from being form: it will still crash into the shore, but it also knows itself to be water.

Many Christians experience this same thing. Saved, they "know" their true nature and that knowledge, while it does not prevent them from experiencing pain, does prevent them from true suffering. In the end, they will return to they true nature, to be born once more at the resurrection. Or so the story goes.

This must be an experience, however, rather than a belief. To know our true nature as Buddha-nature or if you wish, children of God, we must experience directly this true nature.

Now, as to creating reality. Most of you miss the point completely. Its not that our mind creates a stone, but that we give stone its meaning, its definition, its truth, through our mind's ability to perceive and categorize those perceptions. Without such categorization, there is just unnamed, unorganized, unperceived stuff "out there". But of course, thee is no out there, only here.

The moment we think about something we separate ourselves from it. If you want to know an orange, make the orange a part of you. When our discriminating mind falls away, there is no more "paper" no more " sides" no more "me" "you" Just vast emptiness, as Master Bodhidharma said in the fifth century.

Be well.

There is no spoon; there is no spoon, aaahhh... splat! I’m afraid mind over matter is just bullshinto. Matter will win in the long run, and no amount wishing, praying, or chanting, will ever change that. You can try and become part of an orange until the sun goes cold and your understanding of its nature will never be greater than you can learn with a cheap microscope.

It might see its brothers and sisters crashing at the shoreline and fear this end to its existence. Once it is aware of its true nature, however, there is nothing to fear. Awareness of its form and its nature does not stop it from being form: it will still crash into the shore, but it also knows itself to be water.

If you must anthropomorphize inanimate materials this way, why would they need our minds to give them meaning? If an asteroid were to kill all life on Earth what do you think would become of the universe without our minds awareness of it? The only thing that changes when we gain perception is that we gained perception, we’re the only ones affected.

Now, as to creating reality. Most of you miss the point completely. Its not that our mind creates a stone, but that we give stone its meaning, its definition, its truth, through our mind's ability to perceive and categorize those perceptions. Without such categorization, there is just unnamed, unorganized, unperceived stuff "out there". But of course, thee is no out there, only here.

Most of existence is just unnamed unperceived stuff separated by vast emptiness. But that doesn’t mean it’s unorganized. If there is no “out there” then our minds are creating rocks.

It’s amazing how much crap we can invent to try and give our lives meaning. The only universal truths are the ones that can be demonstrated repeatedly in front of anyone whom asks. You cannot prove to me that you love someone; it may be truth to you but its something I can never no as truth. You cannot prove to me that there is any value at all in trying to know an orange, or prove to me that water fears the shore. You cannot prove to me that our mind can affect anything other than ourselves. You cannot prove to me that there is any point to existence at all, or that any part of the living survives death. You can create all the elaborate constructs of existence you want but if any of them turn out to be truth it was just dumb luck, not insightfulness.

Stu bbyfinger writes: It’s amazing how much crap we can invent to try and give our lives meaning. The only universal truths are the ones that can be demonstrated repeatedly in front of anyone whom asks. You cannot prove to me that you love someone; it may be truth to you but its something I can never no as truth. You cannot prove to me that there is any value at all in trying to know an orange, or prove to me that water fears the shore. You cannot prove to me that our mind can affect anything other than ourselves. You cannot prove to me that there is any point to existence at all, or that any part of the living survives death. You can create all the elaborate constructs of existence you want but if any of them turn out to be truth it was just dumb luck, not insightfulness.


So Daiho: I actually think we are in agreement if we can get past the connication issues.

Let's see.

SF: It’s amazing how much crap we can invent to try and give our lives meaning.

DH: Agreed. Consider the truth of the latter part of your sentance, as well. We create meaning. It does not exist without us.

SF:The only universal truths are the ones that can be demonstrated repeatedly in front of anyone whom asks.

DH: Agreed. I am in complete agreement with this. Still, we may use our mind to distill the results of our experimental data into categories, such as an Absolute Truth (we are all impermenent and a Relative Truth (we exist now in a particular way).

SF: You cannot prove to me that you love someone; it may be truth to you but its something I can never no as truth.

DH: Perhaps. Still, there are mirror neurons which if you look into them are a basis for empathy in mammels. Its a fascinating area of neurobiology. Further study in this area may cause you to rethink this position.

SF: You cannot prove to me that there is any value at all in trying to know an orange,

DH: The only value is in being able to speak intelligently about an orange.

SF: or prove to me that water fears the shore...

DH: I used this as an analogy..If a wave were sentient ad if a wave were not aware of its true nature, then...Of course, a wave does not fear the shore, neither do I fear death.

SF: You cannot prove to me that there is any point to existence at all, or that any part of the living survives death.

DH: Agreed. There is no point to life other than what we make of it. Nothing survives our death, but the seeds of ourselves we transmitted through procreation, the good or bad we have accomplished in the world, and the effects we have had on others. We Zen Buddhists argue we are "empty" of substance.

SF: You can create all the elaborate constructs of existence you want but if any of them turn out to be truth it was just dumb luck, not insightfulness.

DH: Agreed. Zen is all about cutting through delusion and this delusion includes the notion of duality.

So, you see we are not all that far apart.

Bows to you.