Circumcision, Forcing Religion?

from JoeUser Forums
Wellll, its been awhile since I'v put up a blog, but I've been wondering about something and finally decided to post. So, why do people that circumcise their child/infant because their religion tells them to think it is ok? Isn't that forcing your religion on them? Isn't that a big no no? Shouldn't this choice be made by the person the operation is being performed on?

I realize the religion may be important to the parents, but the child might follow another religion, or maybe even none at all. Who is to say their choice is any less valid? What do you tell him in this case, well we know our religion is the one true religion so we did the right thing, you'll come around eventually? Self sacrifice is one thing (although I still dont like the idea of being forced to alter your body to be accepted) but, not giving your son a choice just reeks of forcing your religion. Another thing I dont understand.... and I dont claim to be all knowing when it comes to religion, but I didn't think circumcision HAD to be done before the child is old enough to decide for himself. If I remember right, Jew children can decide after they are 13 (which I think is still to young). You can be circumcised any time if you choose (for religion or not), so why force it?

Perhaps im not looking at the whole picture... religion may be a big part of their decision, but along with it comes their personal beliefs. "Its looks better, the sensitivity is just fine, its cleaner, its... normal". So although they feel this way mainly because they where not given a choice they have not experienced both sides, others with the same beliefs are the same way, circ becomes the new normal. So not only will leaving their son intact be going against their religion, they have little/no personal experience with being intact, so it also would be going in to uncharted territory, they dont know what to expect, so they "play it safe" and the cycle continues.

Now, I am curious what other think on this. HOWEVER, if you noticed, I tried to stay away from the medical arguments in this post, I am NOT interested in debating that here, if you want to give thoughts on them, please post on my other thread. Link

Thanks, civil discuss away!
religion
6,264 views 20 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Here's a thought: I am Scottish Born and the trend in the forties was not to circumcise. I'm not sure whether it was a church thing or not but it was certainly a family thing.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
Forcing religion is pretty much how it's spread...at least with with Islam/Judaism/Christianity.

I really don't want to debate schlong choppin' again. I was snipped when I was but a small innnocent child...and I'm Christian. I don't feel my religion was forced on me in any way, actually...never went to church or anything, and I'm still really cynical about the whole organized concept of it. Even though bits of the ol' wiener are missing, it doesn't really convey God to me in anyway.

Although, if you want to get into some really interesting rituals and stuff...check out some ritualistic scarification articles. Those are a little more graphic than trimming some skin and it's required to be seen as an adult in those particular cultures.

Anthropology, yeah!

~Zoo
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Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
Here's a thought: I am Scottish Born and the trend in the forties was not to circumcise. I'm not sure whether it was a church thing or not but it was certainly a family thing.


Yea, but you and those in your family still have the choice of circumcising for religious (or personal) reasons... where a person cut as a kid, has no option to get what he was born with back. A tradition of choice seems like the best option to me

I really don't want to debate schlong choppin' again. Even though bits of the ol' wiener are missing, it doesn't really convey God to me in anyway.


Yea... well I only got one part of the debate out of my system, have to get out this one too

Even though bits of the ol' wiener are missing, it doesn't really convey God to me in anyway.


Hmmm, for me, this practice of forced religion drives me further away from any religion. I realize for certain religions circumcision status doesn't matter, but the thought of all the people who cut infants/children (male or female) in the name of religion not only makes me never want to follow one of them, it also makes me leary of religion in general.

Although, if you want to get into some really interesting rituals and stuff...check out some ritualistic scarification articles. Those are a little more graphic than trimming some skin and it's required to be seen as an adult in those particular cultures.


Well, requiring the alteration from an adult is one thing since it is his choice, yet even then, there can be a lot of pressure to do it even if you dont think it needs done. I haven't seen the scarification articles, but circumcision isn't just a simple trimming of skin, it removes 1/3 to 1/2 of the total skin system of the penis and completely removes the frenar band and in most cases, the frenulum as well. People are mislead by the "simple trim" statement, because really, the frenar band, frenulum, and removed skin actually go a long way in reducing rawing friction between partners and increasing pleasure and control. Kinda side tracked there, but to many people think circumcision is just a removal of a bit of skin, they dont understand it actually removes much of the skin system and important structures of the penis.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't think most circumcize because of religious reasons. I think most do so for medical or health reasons. When I had my kids circumcized it had nothing to do with religion. I wasn't a practicing Christian at that time. I was concerned with the health aspect at the time giving it much consideration before allowing them to do this to my boys.

Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
Ok, so a kid grows up snipped. How, exactly, does that force a religion upon them? Last time I checked being snipped doesn't somehow limit one's ability to think for themselves.

Frankly, is a stupid assumption.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
Last time I checked being snipped doesn't somehow limit one's ability to think for themselves.


Every man's penis does that regardless of snipping or not.   

~Zoo
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top

Last time I checked being snipped doesn't somehow limit one's ability to think for themselves.


Every man's penis does that regardless of snipping or not.   

~Zoo


Well, ok, you have me there
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't think most circumcize because of religious reasons. I think most do so for medical or health reasons. When I had my kids circumcized it had nothing to do with religion. I wasn't a practicing Christian at that time. I was concerned with the health aspect at the time giving it much consideration before allowing them to do this to my boys.


Well, maybe in the US... or for christians (since either status is acceptable), but you think that still holds true for Jew/Muslim religions? As a "side" note, I honestly dont think people, who dont do it for religious reasons, do it for the medical reasons (at least nothing specific)... ask a parent what those reasons are, and they might throw out lower chance for UTI or easier to clean, and that is it... most dont do research... the medical reasons are highly controversial right now (more of a reason to wait), but what people are really using to decide is preconceived notions and personal preferences like "uncut is ugly" or "its hard to clean" or "it works for me", which is just a result of the high US circ rates 30 years ago.

Ok, so a kid grows up snipped. How, exactly, does that force a religion upon them? Last time I checked being snipped doesn't somehow limit one's ability to think for themselves.

Frankly, is a stupid assumption.


Hmmm, true, the kid can still decide to believe in whatever religion he chooses (or none), but that doesn't change the fact that his parents performed a permanent operation on his body because their religion told them to. Maybe they aren't forcing him to believe in the religion, but they are forcing him to take part in a ritual sacrifice for the religion. This isn't simply going to Sunday school...

Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
Circumcision is going out of style in the United States. And, since Gentiles are not required to be circumcized, I can't see it being argued that circumcision outside of the Jewish community is Judeo-Christian-based at all.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
Circumcision is going out of style in the United States


Really it is?

If so, do you think it's sort of like a fad type of thing? When my dad was born, he wasn't circumcised nor for that matter were his brothers. So maybe then they weren't but later were and now going back to not circumcising again? Don't know for sure.

What I do know is my Dad was adamant that I circumcise my boys. He said it's up to you but I strongly suggest you have them circumcised. Nuff said. He didn't get into details. But I thought at the time if he felt that strongly about this and he wasn't there was a good reason. That help me to make my decision to do this and have not regretted it since.

But as far as forcing religion on our kids....We don't force it, but live it and try to pass it down to our children. If a Muslim/Jewish beliver is living out his/her faith then they are going to follow it and if circumcision is part of following their faith they will abide. I wouldn't say it has anything to do with forcing a religion down our children's throats.

We make lots of decisions for our children when they are small when it comes to operations/shots/braces/piercings. Why would circumcision be the only thing we're talking about here?
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
Thanks for the responses so far.

If so, do you think it's sort of like a fad type of thing? When my dad was born, he wasn't circumcised nor for that matter were his brothers. So maybe then they weren't but later were and now going back to not circumcising again? Don't know for sure.


I definately think that, the big reasons on the list in the US are, "look like dad" and "it better looking", and both are spawned from how prevelant circ was. With no current world health organization (WHO) recognizing the difference in medical benefits vs side effects from circ as large enough to warrant it to be routinely done, percentage wise, it has dropped about 30 percent from 30 years ago (in the US).

That help me to make my decision to do this and have not regretted it since.


But your children might... What if one of them came up and said he didn't want it done? You say sorry, my dad said I should do it? Sorry, I like it that way, I thought you would too? However, I dont really hold a grudge against people that cut 30 years ago before the negative effects were really recognized. If I would have had to make a decision back thing I would hope I would have realized it wasn't worth it or the decision should be his, but it is impossible to know what I would have done.

I wouldn't say it has anything to do with forcing a religion down our children's throats.


Ok, lets say for a second here, that instead of circ, it was removing half of the right ear. Is it still ok to perform the ritual for religion? If you still dont think that is forcing religion, then what would you call it?

We make lots of decisions for our children when they are small when it comes to operations/shots/braces/piercings. Why would circumcision be the only thing we're talking about here?


Well, piercings are not permanent or in any way effect the function of the ear. Operations are most likely stopping a problem that showed up... braces are also only done when a problem presents itself (when less serious the kid probably has some say), and shots prevent deadly/dangerous infections and leave no permanent effect on the body (other then immunity).

Bottom line, circumcision is pretty much the only permanent procedure routinely done on healthy tissue. You might say sometimes the appendix or wisdom teeth are removed when there is no problem, but there doesn't appear to be any side effect from removing them, unlike circ, and are done with sufficient pain meds. Circ isn't risk free either, common complications include, excessive bleeding, skin bridges, adhesions, and recirc... and is always painful, removes much of the penile skin, frenar band, and most of the time the frenulum (detailed in my comment above) which is why it isn't recommended routinely.

Everyone wants to do what is best for their child, but why isn't a choice the best option?
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
But your children might... What if one of them came up and said he didn't want it done?


We have four sons. Not one of them has come to us and said this. In fact, I've never heard of such a thing happening. But if a 15 year old had to have it done (and it's been done many times later in life) I'm pretty sure he'd be asking his parents why they didn't do this when he was two days old instead of 15.

Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Why would you have to have it done, besides a medical reason? I'm not going to have a kidney out when I'm two days old because I might get a kidney disease later.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
KFC: I thought you had 3 sons? I'm confused.

I think circumcision is less a religious issue and more a cosmetic one. My boys are circ'd but if I had another son I would not have him snipped for many reasons.

His body, his choice. I'm not going to remove a piece of it without his consent.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
Our second is not. My wife was very upset that she had the first one done after she researched it.

Strangely enough, they took the kid at one point on the last day he was to be in the hospital and just did it. They didn't say anything about it, he just came back circed. I thought that was kind of weird.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
Our boys aren't circumsized, but I'm guessing that don't surprise y'all...lol!
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
seriously, what kinda god demands tips?

in any event, nothing--including circumcision--is absolute.

want it back? start here:

a modest prepuce-ition
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
We have four sons. Not one of them has come to us and said this. In fact, I've never heard of such a thing happening.

Circ rates where high back then, so many guys feel "normal". Who knows how many men cut would like to be intact, and of those, who resents his status enough to tell his parents, but I would say it is becoming more and more common as circ rates lower and people learn that is it more then a simple snip.

But if a 15 year old had to have it done (and it's been done many times later in life) I'm pretty sure he'd be asking his parents why they didn't do this when he was two days old instead of 15.

The answer is simple really ... "your body, your choice", "although some people like the look of cut more, what matters is what you think", "medical data was to conflicting to make a choice for you", "babies cant have the proper pain meds, so although you wouldn't remember it, you still would have experienced the pain", "if we circumcised you, and you would rather be intact, you couldn't get back what was lost, all you could do was foreskin restoration, which takes years where circumcising as an adult takes about a month", and im sure there are more im missing. My friend was intact and got circumcised when he was 17, he said although it was painful, he had plenty of meds and was still glad his parents left the choice to him.

I think circumcision is less a religious issue and more a cosmetic one.

Which is what I hate most about it.... I like the intact look more, but the kids opinion doesn't matter.

seriously, what kinda god demands tips?

Heh, that along with the "conformity" is what I hate most about religious circ.

I still wonder about this for those who support religious circ:
Lets say for a second here, that instead of circ, it was removing half of the right ear. Is it still ok to perform the ritual for religion? If you still dont think that is forcing religion, then what would you call it?

However, everyone keeps coming back to non-relgious reasons for/against circ. Does that mean most of you dont think a religious circ is warranted?
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
Who knows how many men cut would like to be intact, and of those, who resents his status enough to tell his parents, but I would say it is becoming more and more common as circ rates lower and people learn that is it more then a simple snip.


I wouldn't mind having MY tip back. For cryin' out loud, man, us....umm, less endowed guys have it hard enough without some jerk taking part of it OFF!

But seriously, though. I looked for a good, compelling reason for circumcision. I couldn't find one. I believe the reason for it in the OT had more to do with health/hygiene in a time when bathing was infrequent than it had to do with holiness.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hey James,

If I remember right, Jew children can decide after they are 13 (which I think is still to young).


A Jewish boy is to be circumcised on the 8th day.

My comments about circumcision...

The covenant of circumcision is a covenant of passing through. If you look at the covenant made with G-D prior to circumcision Abraham but some animals in half and then passed through the cutting. Circumcision is also a reason that Isaac is the CHOSEN one rather than Ishmael. Isaac wasn't conceived UNTIL after Abraham was circumcised. Thus the seed of Abraham passed through the cutting.