Anyone and everyone goes to heaven, 100% guaranteed

Yeah, I pulled your leg a bit with the title but it made you read it right?

Ha....yes. So true.

It's like those who say there's only one way or one road that leads to God. Well all ways do eventually lead to God all right, but some are just stopping by for a quick re-run of their life before they continue on their way.



yep. Got me! Good one.



This is where I'd differ with ya tho. I see the Great White Throne as the 2nd Resurrection and one where only sinners/unbelievers will be. It's a place where you don't want to be.



So are you a Pastor?

Where are you getting this from? the Last Judgment isn't going to take place in Heaven.

After the general resurrection of the dead, the good and the wicked will be taken by the angels to the valley of Josaphat not far from Jerusalem where the Final Judgment will be held.

After the General resurrection, the angels will come and separate the good from the wicked. St.Paul said, "For the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God; and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first. then we who are alive who are left shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ in the air". All the good with their glorified bodies will be carried on the clouds through the air with splendour to the place of the Final Judgment.

There will be much exhultation and rejoicing as they pass on their way to the valley of Josaphat. After the angels have finished escorting all the saved, they will proceed to drive all the

the wicked, along with the evil fallen angels, for they too are commanded to the valley of Josaphat to appear before the Judge. What an awful journey!

And then there is the wait for Christ to come...

And so it will be on the Last Day.

1 Thessalonians 4 I think you over looked the last part. carried on th clouds through the air with splendour to the place of the final judgement.

Remember the part about a new heaven and a new earth. Once the bad people have polluted heaven its everybody out of the pool time after the judgement.

as it is written we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of GOD! We will all be judged the difference between the ones that stay and the ones that leave is Jesus. with Jesus as your advocate you are cleaned by the blood of the lamb. So yes you will get to see all the things you did that caused God great sorrow and then the blood cleans us. you can see it as you wish the words are there to be seen by all.

and no, I am not a Pastor, I teach.

I don't have this in the KJV at all. I have "to meet the Lord in the ari and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

So what are you using for a text?



hmmm this is interesting. I never thought about it quite this way but can understand that could be true.



Yes I understand and believe this also. What I was referring to was Chap 20 of Rev specifically says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power but they shall be priests of God and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Then continuing after we see the Great White Throne and appears to be just the unbelievers being judged.

John spoke of this also in John 5:29 when he said:

"And shall come forth they that have done good unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation."

To me I see two resurrections. 1 Thess 4 speaks of the first one. Rev 20 speaks of the second one.

LULA POSTS:

Okay, I've added and highlighted the last part of 1Thess 4.

It changes nothing I've said. Think the timing of these events on the Last Day. What event follows the elect being caught up in the clouds to meet Christ in the air as He descends from Heaven (so no one is in Heaven---yet). From there they are accompanied with all the angels and saints come down from Heaven to the valley of Josaphat, near Jerusalem, for the Final Judgment.

As I'm writing this, I see LW has already cited St.John Chrysostom Homily on this.





From what I can tell there is absolutely no BIblical or theological basis for making this assertion.



Unless you can show otherwise, Scripture seems to be telling us that the bad people are NEVER in Heaven to begin with. Apocalypse 20:11-15 tells us what happens immediately after the Final Judgment when everyone is judged for what they've done and for anyone whose name is not found in the Book of Life...they are thrown in the lake of fire.

Re: the new heaven and new earth----Scripture nowhere indicates what form the new heaven and the new earth will take. All we know there is going to be a radical renewal of the present cosmos contaminated as it is by the sin of man and the powers of evil. through this renewal, all Creation will be "recapitulated" in Christ. Eph. 1:10; Col. 1:16-20.

Revelation 21:5-8 is the first and only time in the Book that Almighty God Himself speaks. It's well worth reading...very sobering. God affirms that even now, He in His Most Infinite Mercy, is creating a new world.

LULA POSTS:


KFC POSTS:


KFC,

This comes from my post #3. You can see that I didn't quote the entire passage of 1Thess 4, and improperly added the end quote parenthesis directly after: Christ in the air". It should have been written Christ in the air...".

KFC, how can this be true? It's the earth that has been polluted by sin and evil, not Heaven.

Paladin 77 posts:



I agree.

KFC POSTS:


Paladin 77 posts:


KFC POSTS:



KFC,

Just like Christ's Resurrection was Him raising from the dead, the resurrection on the Last Day is all mankind raising from the dead.

The Great White Throne IS the Final Judgement and cannot be the resurrection. They are two separate events on the Last Day. First, we are all, the good and bad, resurrected from the dead, our souls are reunited with our bodies and those who have died in Christ together with those alive in Christ are caught up (raptured) "in the air" to meet Christ and together go to the valley of Josaphat where we are Judged before God at the Great White Throne.

There are two resurrections...the first resurrection is an individual spiritual one, (born again as in raised to new life) and the second resurrection, the General Resurrection, is for all mankind, a physical resurrection on the Last Day.

Can you see the misunderstanding of Scripture? Above you quote Rev. 20 saying:

Chap 20 of Rev specifically says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

and then in the last post you say, "To me I see two resurrections. 1 Thess 4 speaks of the first one. Rev 20 speaks of the second one.
Well, how can Rev. 20 speak of the second resurrection when Rev. 20 itself says "this is the first resurrection"?

LITTLE-WHIP,

Thank you for posting #7.   

I haven't read the link, but what you have cited here is most helpful in understanding the various viewpoints that have been presented and certainly adds clarity to many of the points we've all been trying to make each in our own way.

Well I thought he brought up a good point Lula. We don't excactly know where the White Throne Judgment will be held. I assumed it was in heaven because it speaks of one who is sitting on the throne and the unbelievers are all before him. We know scripture says "Heaven is my throne, earth is my footstool."

Then, right after the judgment we see a new Heaven and a new Earth being presented. So I thought maybe he had a point because of the sin in front of the throne. Of course I haven't looked into this completely...it was just a hmmmmmm comment. That's all.



no,the end of 20. Specificially 20:11-14. You're referring to 20:5-6. So right there we see two resurrections. The first are the believers the second are the unbelievers and John 5:29 also shows this.

Also in regards to what LW wrote. I'm familiar with Darby, Scofield, Walvord and Lindsey. I've got their books with the exception of Darby. I don't have a problem with some of the early "church fathers" not using or even seeing the Rapture or even understanding much of the end times. If you read Calvin you'll see while he wrote commentaries he didn't on Revelation. Matthew Henry who wrote his commentary in 1700's admitted he only could go so far. I believe God has been giving us limed light as each generation goes by and as we get closer to the end.

As far as the Apostles NOT EXPOUNDING on the Rapture that doesn't mean much really. They didn't expound on alot of things but you can see the principles in scripture all over the place, like the trinity, for instance. We see, when it comes to the Rapture, repeatedly it says his own will not experience the wrath to come. The examples we have all over the place where he sheltered his own during his times of wrath gives us comfort that this will be true.

Besides all that, I'm not specifically advocating Darby or Linsey's pre trib rapture theory as I've been stating around here. I'm saying it's worth a serious look at the pre-wrath belief (which is not as popular) and one which I'm taking on my Revelation series.

From the Apostle's Creed, I always understood that Christ's Second Coming meant that He would descend from Heaven to earth to judge the living and the dead.

According to the prophet Joel and traceable back to the opinion of the Church Fathers, the Final Judgment will be held in the valley of Josaphat. 4:2, 12.

KFC POSTS:

and then I ask...



to which you reply...



Rev. 20:11-14 isn't describing St.John observing the first or second resurrections. It's describing what and who St.John saw at the Final Judgment of the living and the dead.

Here it is:

"then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the Throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. ANd the dead were judged by what waw written in the books, by what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

KFC POSTS:




St.John isn't speaking of 2 separate resurrection events. Both the good and the wicked are resurrected in the General Resurrection. The good rise first and go to eternal life. The wicked rise and go to eternal damnation.

1Thess.4: 16...

V. 16 tells us the first to be resurrected from the dead are those who have died IN Christ. This is the resurrection of the just, good or elect.

The General Resurrection begins while the trumpet sound. Awakened by the sound, all the souls of the just will come down from the farthest parts of heaven. The grave site where their bodily remains were will be opened and through the power of God the body will be reunited with the soul.

That the just will take precedence over the wicked is told by Christ, “Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh where all that are in their graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. And they that have done good things shall come forth to the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment” St.Jn. 5:28-29.

The resurrection of the wicked follows immediately upon that of the just...but it’s different for them. In every burying ground of the lost souls the bodies will resemble devils more than men, thus soul and the body will mutually anathematize each other.


If the good and evil are found together in the grave sites, that will come to pass which our Lord predicted, “So shall it be at the end of the world, the angels shall go out and shall separate the wicked from among the just.” St. Matt. 13:39. Since the good are laid to rest amongst the wicked, it follows that at the general resurrection , they will be found amongst the wicked as well. Accordingly, after the general resurrection, the holy angels will come and separate the just elect from the wicked reprobate.

Next the good and the wicked will be conducted to the place of the Last Judgment by the angels. According to OT prophet Joel 3:2-12, the Last Judgment will be held in the valley of Josaphat, not far from Jerusalem.

ooh, I love your avatar KFC.   

I think it's safe to say that ever since the end of the first century, or say from the time St.JOhn wrote the Apocalypse, there has been a fascination/fear with the end of the world.

We've seen that nearly every age in some way or another thought theirs was the end of the world.

Montanists, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, even Christopher Columbus, and Luther in 1546 predicted the day of judgment wouldn't be far off. When that didn't happen, predictions galore came along and each one's had a 'twist' to the theory. The Mormons, the JWs, and Darby in the 1800s ideas seem to have taken hold in one form or another. The common denonominator seems to be they were all trying to generate attention or enthusiam in predicting the end of the world and "last days" prophecy. What we do know is none have been fulfilled.

Today's Rapturists are developing pre-tribulation, mid-trib and post-trib systems..



All I know is that CHrist is coming again becasue He said He would.

Here's the ending of the Link LW provided.

Christ stressed that no one could predict when He would return. His primary concern was to exhort His followers (us) to be ready for His return. We must resist anything such as speculation about the end which distracts us from our salvation. Christ spoke often of the last days, but always with one purpose: to incite us to repentance and to encourage us to grow in His Gospel and to persevere in the Faith. If we respond to His exhortation, then, when He returns, we will go to meet Him in the clouds, escort Him to His Judgment Seat, and stand at His Right Hand with the prophets, the apostles, the martyrs and all the saints, ready to enter the glory of His Kingdom.

Lula, you made some good points but the above is the best of them. Thank you!