I'm interested to know the answer as well. Perhaps we can resurrect the Mormon article DrGuy referred? Just a thought.

Me too!

Can't believe I missed this developing conversation. I guess it's cool you girls will only vote for someone that's Christian, but you do realize that there are more than Christians in our country and that by only supporting a Christian candidate you're excluding those that are not Christians among us, right?

This country is full of diverse peoples, and they don't all believe in the God that you do. You both (KFC and Lula) sound almost like Nazis in your beliefs. We, the people, who defend your rights to practice your freedom of religion, are a little concerned about those of you who believe that this religious freedom is a license that you deserve for existing. It isn't. It's a right that we, the slayers of naysayers grant you. You probably don't think so, but here's a little test for you. Are you dead or imprisoned?

You're welcome.

Life is not as simple as you literal Bible thumpers want to make it. Somebody, somewhere, has to make the place you live in a livable place. I, for one, am sick and tired of sacrificing my freedom so that you thoughtless thumpers can pretend from the safety of your bank accounts and three bedroom houses that you deserve what you have because Jesus loves you.

You want to prove to me your Holiness? (no) Give up everything you have and spend your life helping others. Seriously. Let's hear it Jythier, Lula, KFC....what job do you hold? Is it one that does its utmost to spread the Word of God or is it one that makes the most money for your family? Do you then rationalize, accountant boy, that you're taking care of your family?

Seriously. Which of you self-righteous Christians are doing anything to make things better? Here's a hint. Sitting here on JU talking about obscure bible passages isn't feeding starving children. Do you give your 10 percent? Oh good for you. You're in the clear!

OCKHAMSRAZOR POSTS:

Hi Ock,

Welcome aboard this discussion. I'm glad you found it.

Every vote I cast whether it's for the president or for local dog-catcher, I vote according to my conscience, Ock.

Thankfully, in America, unlike Communist Cuba, China, or Korea, we still have this freedom.

We aren't living in a vacuum, of course I realize there are candidates who are not Christians. I have my own personal voting guidelines..it's based upon my conscience...they must believe in God and in Jesus Christ, they must be demonstrably pro-life and pro-family they don't get my vote.

There are many so-called Christians, including Catholics, like Rudy Guiliani, who fall into the grouping of those whom I would never vote for. Period.

Voting is a freedom, a privilege and a duty, and I'm very discriminating when it comes to placing my vote.

I should have written, otherwise, they don't get my vote.

If we hold Guiliani to those standards (and I am not saying whether we should or should not), I doubt there is any Catholic you would vote for.

Frankly, I would vote for a man who is not Catholic that believes in abortion, and also does not beleive that life begins at conception. If such a man (or woman) was a non-christian, that would not matter. I would be hard pressed to vote for any person (Catholic or not) that beleives life begins at conception and believes in abortion as well.

This is true, but what does this have to do with my freedom to vote according to my conscience?

Conversely, you, and every other AMerican voter has the same freedom to vote for whomever they want.



WHAT? Now come the labels....claiming that voting according to one's conscience is "almost like Nazis". This is pure nonsense.



I must correct you. Our freedom comes from God. The unalienable right to life, liberty (conscience) and the pursuit of happiness (to know, love and serve God) comes from Almighty God, not from any man.




I am alive in Christ and I am free in Christ.




Stop it with the personal swipes. No one of us has to prove anything to you, Ock.

Let's stick to discussing the substantive elements of this debate.

Unlike, Guiliani, Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas is an exemplary Catholic. He courageously stands up for Jesus Christ and the least of His brethren -- the helpless, innocent unborn child trapped in the womb. It all comes down to a matter of sincerity. In my opinion, any candidate, Catholic or otherwise, who votes for the evil practice of abortion is insincere and doesn't get my vote.

I mete it out this way: Better a sincere non-Catholic, then an insincere Catholic.

that is what I said, just not as succintly.

I had to read this about 5 times because it seems to me your first sentence contradicts your last one.


I couldn't in good conscience ever vote for anyone, Catholic or non-Catholic, who believes in abortion. That's becasue I believe by my vote I'd be complicit in the evil. I think the Church has put out a document that explains this.

I find it rather telling that Ock, who seems to like George Carlin recently, doesn't believe the voting system works, then tells us that we should vote for a candidate that won't represent us. Don't vote for someone who represents you, he says, vote for someone who represents everyone...

Well, see, people have these opinion things. And they're often different. Hence, I vote for someone with opinions closest to mine, so they can run things the way I want them to. If you want me to vote for someone who represents you, how about you just vote.

As for selling everything I own and helping others, I haven't felt that call from God. Imagine if I did that, and then I get to Heaven, and God's like, "What's up with that? We were going to use your money to fund this and this and this..." "But Ock said..." "But WE didn't." "Sorry God..." "We forgive you."

Proving God's Holyness will come when I follow directions from God, not from Ock.

How convenient. I ask again:



I've given my life for you. What have you done for me?

Well, if I was into self promotion I might trot out my resume. But, while your point is well made, there are a lot of Christians who AREN'T like that.

That's because God wants the children to starve.

Seriously. All their God wants from them is a petty little prayer, accepting Jesus into their hearts, or some nonsense like that. Their religion doesn't require any sacrifice, any giving, or any helping of those starving kids.

It's God's predestination that all those kids starve. Who are they to screw around with God's will?

Perhaps disecting it as above would make it easier.

The "irrelevant" might have something to say about that at voting time   

As to "no atheist in foxholes", if you are about to get your head blown off, you'll clutch at anything to stop that, if the situation is desparate enough, even the hundred to one outsider has been known to win at the race track   

People will always vote according to their beliefs and needs, and rightly so. It would be a dangerous thing however if it became a pre-requisite that an individual has to believe in God in order to be allowed to become a Presidential candidate. The Constitution guarantees Religious Freedoms, and very wisely separates Church from State, to do otherwise would be the start of a very dangerous slippery slope.

Yeah, my Articles of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints series of entries fell under the "delete" knife during one of my meltdowns. Could be that it's time to resurrect the series... and even complete it this time. ;~D

OCKHAMSRAZOR POSTS #53


Today Catholic News reported Pope Benedict's Sunday homily in which he seems to address these thoughts and questions of yours. I hope it's helpful.

Castelgandolfo, September 24 -On Sunday morning, Pope Benedict XVI paid a visit to Velletri, Italy where he presided over Mass and gave a homily on the Gospel of the dishonest steward. The Pope told his listeners that, fundamentally, life is always a choice between good and evil, between God and Satan.

"In truth," he told the several thousand faithful who had gathered to hear him, "life is always a choice: between faithfulness and unfaithfulness, between selfishness and altruism, between good and evil. The end of this particular Gospel passage is incisive and authoritative: no servant can serve two masters," which in the final analysis means "you cannot serve God and wealth."

The Holy Father drew a further conclusion from the Gospel by connecting the use or misuse of material goods to its effects on the environment and our fellow men.

"A fundamental decision is then necessary, the choice between the logic of profit as the ultimate criteria for our actions and the logic of sharing and solidarity. If the logic of profit prevails, the imbalance between poor and rich increases, as does the ruinous exploitation of the planet." "When, on the other hand, the logic of sharing and solidarity prevails it is possible to alter and redirect our course towards equal development and the common good of everyone. Ultimately it is a decision between selfishness and love, between justice and dishonesty, ... between God and Satan."

Pope Benedict pointed out how this attitude of serving Christ and our fellow man in our material choices is counter cultural and can call us to be radically sacrificial. "If loving Christ and our fellow man is not considered as a superficial accessory," he added, "but rather as the real and ultimate aim of our entire life, we must know how to take fundamental decisions, to be ready to make radical sacrifices, if necessary even unto martyrdom. Today, as yesterday, the life of Christians calls for the courage to swim against the tide, to love like Jesus Who went so far as to sacrifice Himself upon the cross."