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Minimum wage = living wage

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Minimum wage = living wage

I wish I got raises in this %

from JoeUser Forums

Being that I manage HR where I work, I get to see all the "news" about minimum wages (both in the state and federal).  Our State's minimum wage has always freaked me out at how high it has gotten, but the current changes in FEDERAL minimum wage has me down right fearful.

Why?  Because it is now becoming a living wage.  Either companies will quit hiring non-skilled workers (where will they work?) or they will start using their non-us factories more.

If you don't know the amounts, don't worry, I'm about to give you the stats.

In 1997, the Federal (don't confuse this with your States, which you may not even have, or it may be higher) the minimum wage was set at $5.15.  As of July 24th of this year, it was raised to $5.85. No big deal- that's only a bit over 13% over the course of 10 year.  Now, this is where I start to worry- the *second* step will raise the minimum wage to $6.55 on July 24, 2008 (12% over ONE year) and the Third step will raise the minimum wage to $7.25 on July 24, 2009 (10% more).

Now, I don't know about you, but I doubt that I will see raises like that during that time.  However, you can bet that cost of living will rise since it will cost business more to employ unskilled workers.

I always looked at minimum wage as the wage that you paid people that were doing completely unskilled jobs (bagging groceries, stocking shelves, collecting carts, making photocopies, packing boxes, etc.)  ~$5.50 an hour seems like a good pay for that type of labor.  But $7.25????  That's not minimum, that is "living".

When I started the job that I have now, I started out answering phones, taking orders, doing data entry, shipping orders and managing the office.  I made $7.00 an hour, and I had a lot of responsibility. 

What is $7.00 per hour, anyway?  It is $14,560 per year.  After tax, that is $11,503, which is $958 per month.  Can you live on it?  You bet....

This is what my living cost me back then (1995) per month:
apartment: $410
car payment: $120
Insurances: $110 (car and renters)
food: $175
phone: $30
Gas: $40
Misc.: $25
Total: $910 - $48 to spare- that's what I got for being over minimum wage!

Yep, it was tight, but it covered my NEEDS (something that a lot of Americans seem to have a hard time separating from "wants").

So, what about $7.25 an hour 12 years later?
That's $15,080 per year.  After taxes: $11,914 (per month: $993)
Same Apartment: $470 (checked on their rates to have the actual number)
car payment: $120
Insurances: $115 (car and renters)
food: $175
phone: $30 (except now it would be mobile!)
Gas: $55
Misc.: $25
Total: $990 - only $3.00 left over- but needs are still paid for...no skills required.

Now, before somebody says "but,that can only support one person!"  I shall say- it's meant to.  If you have a couple- both of you will have to work, and will be better off (rent won't be higher, as an example).  Have a kid?  Alternate shifts.  Sure, it isn't ideal, but it will pay the bills.

So, we no longer have a real minimum wage- we actually have a living wage.  One that many will find "good enough" and never strive to do better.  Does this help our country in any way?  I don't think so.  I think it will hurt it in many ways, especially if this trend continues.

 

14,748 views 67 replies
Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top
in salt lake just before the raised minimum up from 4.50 an hour. McDonald's was paying a starting wage of 6.00 an hour. why because they couldn't find anyone to work. there were help wanted signs in every block with businesses. the day after the minimum went up to 6.00 an hour. all of those signs disappeared.
Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top
These days, the prospect of the american dream is reduced to living in a particular state in middle-america, and eating rice & beans


I resent that! We eat rice and beans a couple of times a week. But apparently us "po'folk" ain't up to your standards, and as long as we're not eating Beef Wellington, we ain't up to the likes of rich snobs like you!
Fences - Organize your desktop icons today!
Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top
VW Beatle new .... 1999.0 ...................... >15000.0 .............. ...650


these two cars are not the same
Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top
Avg Groc./ wk for 2 ...15.0 ......................... 100.0 .......... ... 500


This number doesn't correlate either. More Americans buy processed foods, which are more expensive. I can tell you for a fact I can feed my ENTIRE FAMILY (8 of us) on less than $100/week...and we DO spend less. It's all about choices. As for bread, I don't pay $1.99/loaf, but I suppose the same crowd that's too good for rice and beans would be too good to buy their bread at a thrift store, where it's less than HALF that...for GOOD quality, whole grain bread!
Reply #30 from JoeUser Forums Top
Man, I paid freakin' 6 bucks for a gallon of milk the other day. ON POST.

Just needed to complain about that.
Reply #31 from JoeUser Forums Top
Man, I paid freakin' 6 bucks for a gallon of milk the other day. ON POST.


Yeah, it's up to 4 here.

There are some individual items that have gone up rather sharply. It's hard, for instance, to find potatoes for less than $3 for a 10 lb bag. And for the aforementioned milk, it's now up to about 3 bucks for POWDERED milk (which is still better than 4 for fresh). And, unlike you, we can't just give up dairy products if we choose to. See, I have 5 Wisconsonites to worry about and it's somehow coded in them that they MUST have dairy...no other products using calcium will do. If they don't have dairy...well, the Wisconsonites in the family are all female and one is in the early stages of puberty so, well, you figure it out!
Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top
It's hard, for instance, to find potatoes for less than $3 for a 10 lb bag.


grow your own.
Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top
daniel,

OK, I realize you think all Americans live in the potato belt, but our sandbox will not allow potatoes to develop a root structure. We've tried. We need to spend a lot of money improving the soil before we can grow potatoes.

I'm always a fan of encouraging people to self sufficiency; you should know that by now. But sometimes there are limitations, as in this case.
Reply #34 from JoeUser Forums Top
I'm always a fan of encouraging people to self sufficiency; you should know that by now. But sometimes there are limitations, as in this case.


was only trying to help

i don't know anyones conditions but my own.


Reply #35 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yeah, you're right, danielost. I was a bit snippy. It's a good idea, it just doesn't work HERE!
Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top
you could use some large planters

then all you would need is soil for the planters

i know expensive
Reply #37 from JoeUser Forums Top
you could use some large planters

then all you would need is soil for the planters

i know expensive


Yeah, and spuds tend to SPREAD! LOL!

We're looking at some lots in town that we may use for gardening.
Reply #38 from JoeUser Forums Top
OK, I realize you think all Americans live in the potato belt, but our sandbox will not allow potatoes to develop a root structure. We've tried. We need to spend a lot of money improving the soil before we can grow potatoes.


I kind of have to laugh here Gid. I've lived in the famed "Idaho Potato" country. It's all desert, many of the potato farms are "dry farms" and the only other thing that grows around there is sagebrush. ;~D

Not laughing at you though, if you say you've tried, I do believe you, just had to laugh since Idaho potatoes ARE grown in a "sandbox". :~D
Reply #39 from JoeUser Forums Top
Not laughing at you though, if you say you've tried, I do believe you, just had to laugh since Idaho potatoes ARE grown in a "sandbox". :~D


not as bad as this...lol! Two years ago, we tried to grow potatoes, and despite all of our best efforts, all we came up with was little tubers slightly larger than pearl onions. It was a disaster!

See, we're also on a hill, high above the water table. Perhaps that and the mineral content of the soil are the variables?
Reply #40 from JoeUser Forums Top
you could use some large planters

then all you would need is soil for the planters

i know expensive


Yeah, and spuds tend to SPREAD! LOL!


Seriously, Gid, you can easily grow potatoes in a big 50-gallon pot. I've done it; and it's cheaper than you'd think - you just have to know the right procedure. When they spread, you just make 'em spread UP instead of OUT.

I know what it's like to have really crappy soil, but e-mail me if you want some advice as to how to do some really effective (and not too expensive) container planting. It's easier than you'd think, and you can get a crapload of potatoes that way . . .
Reply #41 from JoeUser Forums Top
When they spread, you just make 'em spread UP instead of OUT


I've tried the "making em spread up". It didn't work. I'm interested, of course, but it was a monumental failure for us.
Reply #42 from JoeUser Forums Top
And, unlike you, we can't just give up dairy products if we choose to.


Heh, ain't nobody around here giving up dairy. That's crazy talk.

And LOL at everyone telling you about growing stuff. Haha. If they only knew.
Reply #43 from JoeUser Forums Top
I've had my fair share of low-income jobs. My first job was in KFC at 18. My parents made good money back then so I never really had to work at a young age. I did do summer school jobs that yielded enough to buy some nice sneakers for the next school year. I started out at $5.25 in KFC, I needed only to help around the house. It was only me and my mom and we lived in a $500 apartment in Jersey City, New Jersey. I eventually got raises about every six months and within a year became a Supervisor and got a $1 raise. As you can see within a year I was already above minimum wage.

In my years I've had only 1 minimum wage job, KFC. These have been my other jobs:

teller at Barnet Bank at age 21 - $10/h
Utility locator at 22 - $12/h
Warehouse clerk at 24 - $13/h
Office clerk in same job as above at 28 - $15/h (lost job afetr fight with brother, he was President of the company. Not my fault)
Chemical storage room clerk at 29 - $10/h in Puerto Rico
cook/sandwhich maker/ cashier at uncles diner at 30 - $80 a week
Mailroom clerk temp at 30 - $11 back in the US
Mailroom clerk permanent at 31 - $12

And now I just got promoted to the accoundting dept, I start on Monday. $13 for starters. All this with only a highschool diploma. No college.

Still it has been hard, most of this time I worked alone. My wife stayed home with the kids until recently when she started working at $9/h. We have been a family for the past 9 years so it's been hard but it's mostly my fault for not managing my money better and for not allowing my wife to work because of the kids. But things are improving and now my boss is working on helping me go to school to get a degrre in computers so that I can continue to move up in the company. This is for those who keep saying that there are no good jobs out there and that if people made an effort they might actually do it.

For fark's sake, I bought my first car for $800.00.


Hah, I got you beat. I got my first car at around 19 or 20, a $600 Mazda 626. I had no door lock, no radio, the front bumber stuck out the right side about 8 or 9 inches. I put commercial insurance on it claiming it to be used to deliver products from a catalog my mom bought and sold stuff from, Fingerhut I believe it was. $79 a month, not bad. From here I have been stuck around the same range of vehicles.

1987 Pontiac Sunbird stationwagon - $700 (broke the first day I got it)
1993 Toyota Corolla - $7000 (best car I've had so far, eventually fell apart)
1984 Toyota Camery stationwagon - $2000 in Puerto Rico
1992 Ford Escort - $4000, still paying the load on this one
1992 Ford Explorer - $1500 here in the US (current vehicle)
1994 Ford Explorer - $2500 for my wife

I bought the Ford Explorers cause of the space. They really arent that bad on fuel. I do plan on getting rid of mine for something smaller. Maybe a scooter or a motorcycle. My job is close so it's all good. Eventually phase out my wifes truck for something a bit more relaible like a minivan. A newer one. Her truck had more problems that I was aware of. Hell mine is in better conditions in a way. Just about every one of these cars reached or passed the 100,000 mile marker.

In the end, it's not that hard and that bad if you manage you money correctly (this from one who has not done it right yet but can calculate it and it makes sense to me)


These days, the prospect of the american dream is reduced to living in a particular state in middle-america, and eating rice & beans.


I'm sorry, what is wrong with rice and beans? Is it really every Americans dream to eat steak and fillet mignon every day? Does every American have to eat this good and have the best the world have to offer? Is it trully our goal to make sure there is a big screen TV, an xbox, the latest computer, internet, cable, an SUV with an unlimited gas card, well you get the point, in every house in the US? If anything the prospect of the American Dream is to make more money while doing less work. It's sad to see a person who has worked hard for many years to make more money only to have a new employee come close to or match their wage on the first day of work.

I guess I'm just an optimist,


Nothing wrong with that, doesn't mean that makes us pessimist.

if paying more money to people who need it more than I do costs me some of my wealth, however indirectly, so be it.


I wonder if you are so willing to give more with the belief it will help the less fortunate, are you paying more in taxes that you have to? Are you giving more money to the Gov't than you have to pay in taxes? I'm always curious to know if people with this kind of belief actually tell their employers to take more taxes out and do they give a lot to charity.

But I guess most people aren't like that, they want only one thing...more money for themselves.


Interesting, I guess you can say I am one of those people. I want more money, especially the one I work hard for. I want more of my hard earned money to go towards the benefit of my family, not those who refuse to work and chose to live off of people like me thru Gov't programs. I know not all people are like this but many are, I should know my aunt and many friends of the family are like this. I work hard to make to earn my paycheck, so that I can get better pay raises and promotions so that I can get more money. I'm not looking to live like Donald Trump or Bill Gates, I just want enough to give me a decent life with all the wants I can get, so long as I've earned it. And help my mom since she is not well and has a hard time finding jobs with only a 6th grade education.

I'm all for helping those who need a push, but I'm also for making sure that those who need the push are doing it to better themselves and not leach off the system for the rest of their lives. There's an old saying in Puerto Rico who ask Godto help them with their financial problems, roughly translated "help yourself and God will help you".
Reply #44 from JoeUser Forums Top
Everyone keeps dodging my points by talking about "I like rice & beans" or "we have t compete in the global market". The REAL fact is that the lack of a minimum wage that is sufficient for a person to support themselves is a sign of how much America is NOT as strong as it used to be.....not the place everyone wants to move to....not the place that is looked to as an example of freedom and opportunity.

When speaking of global economy, those factors will guarantee the weakening of America in the long term, much more so than a short-term problem like factory workers.

A country who has the strongest military and is the shining example of supporting and protecting their people, is revered by all. A country with a strongest military and allows for an ongoing "class-divide" is sure to sink into being hated.
Reply #45 from JoeUser Forums Top
for an ongoing "class-divide" is sure to sink into being hated.


this is really about greed. those who don't have want everything the do haves have. but they don't want to work for it. i asked gene for 300,000 knowing, 1. that he wouldn't give it to me. despite all of his talk about taking from the rich and giving to the poor. and 2. i wouldn't have accepted it anyways because i don't really care about money.
Reply #46 from JoeUser Forums Top
Everyone keeps dodging my points by talking about "I like rice & beans" or "we have t compete in the global market". The REAL fact is that the lack of a minimum wage that is sufficient for a person to support themselves is a sign of how much America is NOT as strong as it used to be.....not the place everyone wants to move to....not the place that is looked to as an example of freedom and opportunity.


Shall I remind you that when the U.S. was at it's "strongest" (the late 50s), college grads started out at about a dollar an hour ($7.23 in today's dollars). So are you sure you want to go back to the "good old days"? ;~D

Reply #47 from JoeUser Forums Top
Everyone keeps dodging my points by talking about "I like rice & beans" or "we have t compete in the global market".


No, I'm suggesting that a crack addicted bum who works at McDonald's when he can be motivated to work and blows his checks on lottery tickets and malt liquor shouldn't expect a wage that makes him COMFORTABLE! Minimum wage was meant to be that.

It takes NO effort beyond SHOWING UP EVERYDAY to get above a minimum wage job. THAT'S the point.

And again, please answer, Jeremy....I'm desperately wanting you guys to show me the bodies from the people who are starving to death on minimum wage. Until you do, your argument is nothing more than finely steamed bovine excrement!

I'll give you credit. At least you're honest. Your goal is for even the poorest in the United States to live a middle class lifestyle. Kudos. Now, if you're making more than the median wage, I expect you to give it to charity. After all, you can't expect everyone else to redistribute their wealth unless YOU start!
Reply #48 from JoeUser Forums Top
Now, if you're making more than the median wage, I expect you to give it to charity. After all, you can't expect everyone else to redistribute their wealth unless YOU start!


i agree
Reply #49 from JoeUser Forums Top
The REAL fact is that the lack of a minimum wage that is sufficient for a person to support themselves is a sign of how much America is NOT as strong as it used to be.....not the place everyone wants to move to....not the place that is looked to as an example of freedom and opportunity.


Sadly, that is a nice slogan but goes against history, and economic fact. Minimum wage is the reason that so many jobs have gone to automation (and yes, even to outsourcing overseas). It might help a very few people, but ends up hurting far more as while you can rail against the law of supply and demand, you cannot change it. Ever experiment that has tried has failed miserably. Call it greed. Call it human nature or human failure. The fact remains. A minimum wage (and even a living wage) is a feel good measure that does nothing for the ones it is supposed to help. It merely is a 30 second sound bite that politicians use to get re-elected.
Reply #50 from JoeUser Forums Top

Everyone keeps dodging my points by talking about "I like rice & beans" or "we have t compete in the global market". The REAL fact is that the lack of a minimum wage that is sufficient for a person to support themselves is a sign of how much America is NOT as strong as it used to be.....not the place everyone wants to move to....not the place that is looked to as an example of freedom and opportunity.

Freedom and opportunity would imply that a person is free to pay what he wants for a given job to be done and another person has the freedom to choose whether they are willing to do that job for the offered fee.

I find it rather odd to see someone actually argue that the government forcing people to pay certain amounts and other people to be forced to accept certain amounts to be a matter of "freedom".

If someone wants to shovel snow in your drive way, why should the government be involved in forcing a certain price that must be paid for it? And how exactly is forcing price controls a form of "freedom".

You also totally ignored the economic reality -- you force employers to pay Americans more than they are willing to pay unskilled labor then they will turn to foreign sources.