That is a topic worthy of a lot of studying of texts involved not casual snippets from here or there.

Just for your information: i dont say anything regarding the OT, the NT or Qura'an that is not based on careful reading and rereading of the texts. The whole Text not just a line from here or there and after tying it to what is said in other parts of the same text.




Let's look at your answer here:

First You say God didnt send his angels to Lot, HE sent them to destroy the city.

dont you see the problem here? you ignore the question completely and answer YOUR OWN Imagined one. I didnt ask WHY did God send them?

then you justify Lot's saving as a reward. based on what? someone's interpretation?

let's have some common sense here. why would angels need a host? why do they go to some's house and cause problem for him. the people attacked his house to get to these men for homosexual activities.

why would a man who would later have incest with his daughters object to letting the people have their way with strangers?

Also remember that the people referred to Lot as a man who is acting as a judge on them. why would Lot do that if He was not sent by God to these people?

answering the wrong question, ignoring the text, and relying on others' interpretation doesnt lead to any truth. it just propagates the wrong understanding.

Why is that? to justify that ALL the writings in OT and NT are from God?

Let me say this another way: there is a reason that there is a Text called Torah and another called Injil. that is not debatable and they are God's words. So what are the OT and NT which only existed 300-400 after Jesus was raised and they were a collection of many documents from many sources? Not only that. here is what the New RSV say in the preface:

"..... King James Version has serious defects..... which made it apparent that these defects were so many as to call for revision ....."

This is what the people who wrote what you consider "Devine" say. and you still say ALL of it is actually devine? well, i cant argue with that.



Does the phrase "word of God" has two meaning?I didnt know that. To any reader it means "God's actual words to someone"

Muslims say "Qura'an is the ACTUAL words of God to Mohammad". whether anyone believes that or not is not the point. The point is what the TEXT and its followers Claim about it.

If it does not mean the same for the OT/NT, then that confirms my point.

What do you call the SS if the phrase doesn't mean the same i.e God's ACTUAL words?

(btw, why would Muslims need apologists .... ?!!!!!!)

Well looks like we have a consensus, that none of us agrees.

I'd say that is probably not overwhelming evidence of divine existence.

Finish the sentence...people of the Book (those Jews and Christians) who do not believe in the religion of Mohammed (Islam) and in Mohammed himself. That would be me.

ThinkAloud,

You raise some interesting points that I am moast interested in discussing, however, I will be away for a short while. I just wanted you to know I'm not ignoring you.

In this instance, an apologist is someone who defends his faith.

Finish the sentence...people of the Book (those Jews and Christians) who do not believe in the religion of Mohammed (Islam) and in Mohammed himself. That would be me.

Lola, I told you what the Islamic scholars wrote about that verse and also about similar verses related to Non-believers in general. All these verses are referring to specific groups and battels at the time of revelation and NOT to people of the book or non-believers in general. That understanding was written and have been known for more than 1300 yrs. In other words it is not something new to accomodate any particular situation.

They based their understanding on the other verses which clearly defines how Islam deals with and treats, in general, the people of the Book and the non-believers.

Now, if you insist on your understanding of that verse, of course that is your option. Just be aware that Muslim extremists also understand it that way, which contradicts the opinions of the of Early Muslim scholars as well as the contemporary ones.

What makes the extremists' understanding unacceptable is the fact that the actions of the prophet himself and ALL who followed him confirms the Majority's point of view.

If the extremists's point of view is the correct one how do we explain the fact that when Muslims kicked the Romans out of the middle east Christians and Jews did not disappear in a genocide expected from that false understanding? Jews and Christians continued and still continue to live there with no problems. In fact when muslims were kicked out of spain and persecution of the Jews started there (along with Muslims) they left not to other parts of Europe but to the other parts of the Othman Empire like Turkey, Egypt and Syria and of course Palestine. these are historical facts. you can check them out and i am sure you are aware of it.

Actually, as far as I know, both Jews and Christians always flourished in that area. How is that to be explained if the extremists' view is valid? These countries came under muslims' rule since the 7th and 8th centuries and for 1300+ years and they didnt finish (actually never started) the job that view of the verse implies? it is a stretch of imagination to say the least.

In this instance, an apologist is someone who defends his faith.

at certain times, someone who defends his faith is an apologist ? Hmmmmm .....!!!!!

Does that apply to you too? or it only applies to others?

very arrogant way to treat others, imho.

Well looks like we have a consensus, that none of us agrees. I'd say that is probably not overwhelming evidence of divine existence.

ooh really?

i would say it is a FIRM evidence. do you see anything else in this universe behaving like that? if all this universe including us is a result of some "NATURAL" phenomenon we would be behaving in a much orderly logical manner. That is what Natural things do. they are caused by a Natural Law and it just keeps them behaving according to that Law. But the fact that we dont act that way, and even the universe itself doesn't ALWAYS obey those natural laws is a firm evidence that something else is acting. believers call that God. You can call it anything you like. the word itself is not important. It is the idea itself that this universe including us and its natural laws is under control of a higher authority.

TA have you ever thought of using a dictionary? The word is in there.

Apologist:

n. A person who makes an apology or defense in speech or writing 2. a. Also apologete, a person skilled in apologetics. b. One of the authors of the early Christian apologies in defense of the faith.

Apologetics:

n. the branch of theology concerned with the defense or proof of Christianity.

TA have you ever thought of using a dictionary? The word is in there.Apologist:n. A person who makes an apology or defense in speech or writing 2. a. Also apologete, a person skilled in apologetics. b. One of the authors of the early Christian apologies in defense of the faith.

No, KFC. You just informed me about them. and guess what. here is what it also say:

Apologist:

n. express regret.

I never heard that word used in the sense you indicated. I took it to mean the usual meaning i.e. expressing regret on behalf of Muslims. and that is why i asked: why would Muslims need that?

why would Lola use that word in the way you indicated, i will never know. but i will take your word for it. in this case, my question is not necessary, no harm done.

That should tell us all a lot. Misunderstanding can lead to a lot of confusion and wrong impression.

I also found this in another dictionary:

Apologist:

n. defender of a doctrine, action, etc.

This word is well used in Christian circles TA. An apologist is someone who defends the faith.

We learn something new everyday...and that is a good thing.

In the Christian book store there is a section on Apologetics, which means books that help you learn to defend your faith. I thought it meant what you thought it meant when I first went in there. I was thinking, "I know how to apologize... you say you're sorry. Duh."

So don't feel bad, but in Christian circles it is a commonly used word... you get used to it, then you use it in public, and people get confused!

LULA POSTS:


To begin, let me be clear that I do not condemn nor ever have condemned all Muslims for the troubles that we experiencing today. I’ve only tried to show that it’s undeniably true that there is something really screwed up in the Muslim world about the way Islam is being received and the way the Qur’an is interpretated. I understand there are moderate Muslims, but where is moderate Islam to be found?


It’s no secret that radical Muslim jihadist’s main intention is to Islamify (impose Sharia) the entire world according to the teachings of the Qur’an. They don’t plan to accomplish this by way of peaceful conversion what I call faith and reason. History shows Muslim imperialism has been, for the most part, if not all, carried out by ‘the sword’. I’m hard pressed to believe they were all misunderstanding what the Qur’an says.

Today, we are facing an all-out push for Islamification of the West that cannot be denied...and Christians in at least 3 of the countries you cited, Iraq, Lebanon, and the Sudan, are fleeing by the droves for their lives and religious freedom.

I don’t have to go to the Middle East to know and understand what is happening over there...namely, that Christians are treated like seccond class citizens and persecuted in ways that violate their human dignity and freedom of conscience. News stories abound.

Here are some of the headlines:

Only a few weeks ago, 23 South Korean missionaries were kidnapped by Taliban rebels. Two have been killed; one was a Protestant pastor who was shot 10 times. The Pope is pleaing for their release. Where is the outcry and condemnation from the 1.5 billion ‘moderate’ Muslims whom you refer to above? Will murdering these “infidels’ be justified because they violated conditions of the Qur’an?

In April, 2005, British journalist Anthony Browne, a self described aitheist wrote in the UK’s Spectator, that roughly 300 million of the world’s Christians are persecuted or living under threat of violence becasue of their faith by Islamists. He writes, “Two years and many church attacks later, Iraq may still be occupied by Christian foreign powers, but the Islamist plan to ethnically cleanse Iraq of its nearly 2,000 year old Assyrian and Armenian Christian communities is reaching fruition.”
He goes on, ‘Christians are no longer thrown to the lions, but from China, North Korea, and Malaysia, through India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey they are subjected to legalized discriminations, violence, imprisonment, relocation and forced conversion.”

Feb. 2006, “Italian priest shot to death in Turkey allegedly by a Muslim teenager.”

Although they cry out that Islam is a religion of peace and harmony, Yousaf Mishaf, a 60 year old Pakastani Christian was arrested on June 28, 2005, for in Nowshera, on the grounds he desecrated the Qur’an under it’s blashemy laws, he could get the death penalty or life imprisonment.

Feb. 2006, Muslim extremists killed 6 Christians in cold blood in the own of Sulu Archipelago of the Phillipines. The attackers went door to door asked if the inhabitants were Muslim or Christian and those who said Christian were shot, the dead included a 9 month old girl.

A friend of mine wrote a letter to the Ambassodor of Turkey to express his disgust at the lack of relgious toleration by their government. He based his argument on the fact that there is total religious freedom for Muslims here in the US, and that Turkey’s government needed to reciprocate and restore full rights for the Greek Orthodox Chruch to celebrate Holy Mass.

So don't feel bad, but in Christian circles it is a commonly used word... you get used to it, then you use it in public, and people get confused!

very true . I didnt feel bad, i realized that the word has two meanings. I just never heard it in that sense. as KFC said, we learn new things every day.

It’s no secret that radical Muslim jihadist’s main intention is to Islamify (impose Sharia) the entire world according to the teachings of the Qur’an.

this is a great misconception and I wrote several times about that both in many comments and in separate article. And according to the teachings of Qura'an all they have to do is spread the word by mouth nothing else. It clearly say no islam by force. If you take what extremists say at face value, then take ALL what they say. I also wrote about that a long comment somewhere here on JU. They also say, leave our lands and leave us alone and we will not fight you. Noe either you believe all of what they say or you dont. but picking what you believe and what not to is not an honest way of making any judgement.

These extreme ideology is basically political and they use religion to get support from their ill-educated and ill-informed public. and that is why I also said many times we have to work on this weakness in the extremists' PR. we should work hard to convince these people that we are not against Islam as they think from what they hear from the extremists.

Your position is not helping, because you actually adopt the same position as the extremists. You say they want to convert us and they say to their people EXACTLY the same thing even though that is not the reason of their "Jihad". Both are wrong. no one is trying to convert anyone. it is someone trying to hold on something that is not his (us occupying their land) and the other trying to regain control of their own land.

Today, we are facing an all-out push for Islamification of the West that cannot be denied...and Christians in at least 3 of the countries you cited, Iraq, Lebanon, and the Sudan, are fleeing by the droves for their lives and religious freedom.

fleeing from those 3 countries applies to ALL religions there. Muslims in any of them are not in any better position than Jews or Christians. again, here you taking a political problem and presenting it as a religious one. It is not and it never was.

You can list ALL what the extremists/terrorists violence and it just proves one thing. There are terroists. That is not Muslims. can you take what the IRA did as actions of ALL Christians? the same thing Lola. The IRA terrorized the UK for more than 20 yrs, no muslim ever said that this is what christians do. And as we all know, not many in the west condemned the IRA either. most christians just didnt agree with what they did. that is very similar to the Muslim majority today. Almost like at a loss of what to do.

You know why? because the cause is Just, the methods are not. but whatever it is, it is clearly politics using religion to get the support of the masses. An old dirty method being used over and over again.

All level-headed people should realize that. Religion is a victim of extremists .... again. no wonder many young people dont even believe that there is a God or there is such a thing as Religion .... they dont believe in any of them.

ThinkALoud,

Do you have a copy of the Qur'an? If you do, are there any Sura's that speak of or show love?

I don’t have to go to the Middle East to know and understand what is happening over there...namely,

A friend of mine wrote a letter to the Ambassodor of Turkey to express his disgust at the lack of relgious toleration by their government.

That is why you need to go there. that toleration that you and I and everyone asks for is not there for ALL people there, ..... they are equal-opportunity dictators. Muslims and Jew have the same complaint. and that is not only in Turkey. That is the main political problem i referred to before. We support all these governments for reasons we all know.

Go live there for a while and you realize that it is the facts of life there. No religious discrimination and also no real political freedom except what serves to make it "look" like one. some of them dont even bother with that "look" thing.

Do you have a copy of the Qur'an? If you do, are there any Sura's that speak of or show love?

Hi Lola. That is a funny question

Yes i do have a copy of Qura'an. I would not talk about it unless i read it. in its native language too. and yes there are many many verses which speak of and show love. All kinds of love. in a very decent and peotic way i might add. I will look these up for you. but as a start. Read Surah # 19. Guess what is its name: "Mariam .... i.e Mary" no less.

This Surah talks about Mary of course in a very lovely and compassionate way. Not only that it talks about most other prophets and messengers including Abraham, John the Baptist, Zakariya .. and many others . i will look other verses for you

THINKALOUD POSTS # 110


LULA POSTS: # 129




THINKALOUD POSTS: # 129


tHINKALOUD,
let's see if we can come to some understanding about Lot and come to some sort of an agreement that it's important when discussing Scripture to represent things properly.

Notice in reply # 110 that you said that "God does not send His angels [/B]just to any body ....19:30 is a disgrace to a man who was the host of God's angels"

In response to this I corrected you saying that God didn't send His angels to Lot per se, rather, that as per God's discussion with Abraham who interceded for Sodom, since ten just men were not found in Sodom, GOd sent the two angels to destroy it.

When the 2 angels arrived in Sodom, Lot was the first one they saw and he invited them into his house. That's the hospitality I was referring to and the same one I assume you were also referring to when you wrote in reply #110:

"God does not send His angels just to any body ....19:30 is a disgrace to [B]a man who was the host of God's angels"


Then you wrote, " let's have some common sense here. why would angels need a host? why do they go to some's house and cause problem for him. the people attacked his house to get to these men for homosexual activities.

The angels didn't cause problems for Lot, no not at all. You misunderstand the passages if you think that. The Angels forewarned Lot and his family to get out of there before they destroyed the city.

Yes, without a doubt, the sin of homosexuality was the chief cause of the destruction of the cities. Here we can see how hateful it is in the eyes of God and how severely He punishes it. Sexual impurity is an abominaton before God. It leads to many other sins and easily results in impenitence and impiety as was the case of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha. Almighty God doesn't always punish it in this world, but He will certainly do so in the next. "Do not err; neither fornicators, nor adulterers shall possess the kingdom of God." 1Cor.6:9.

Lot's steadfastness is worthy of our admiration. He lived for 20 years in the wicked city and did not let himself be led away in sin, but remained firm in what was right and brought up his children in the holy fear of God. Therefore, Holy Scripture in allusion to him, says, "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly from temptation." 2Pet.2:9 becasue they pray and co-operate with grace.

You read Arabic then?

I am presently looking into purchasing an English copy of the Qur'an. I want to make sure that I get a correct translation.

thinkaloud posts:

I agree the Torah is God's words becasue it's part of the Old Testament and was officially declared so by the Church.

You say the Ingil is too, but for me the jury is out on that. What specifically is the INgil and what books make it up? The INgil is a Muslim confection isn't it?

You are incorrect if you think the OT and NT only existed 3 or 4 hundred years after Jesus. The OT as we have it today existed at least 100 years before Christ (the Septuagint). All the writings of the NT were written within the first century after Christ and some believe the last one, St.John's Book of the APocalypse was written before 70 AD mainly becasue there is no specific reference to one of the most pivotal times in salvation history and that is the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

Thanks, LW.

How wonderfully convenient that would be. "YOU had an INFLUENCE on ME - so it's your fault.

Did you mean to say quite that?{/quote]

No my statement is more one of cause and effect. The butterfly effect applies here.

We are not granted omniscience. We are forced to *think* to come up with our answers. My point is that whatever information, via a Bible or a Qu'ran or legends and myths or whatever is actually attributed to a deity, then the responsibility of the effect that that cause has on the thinking of an individual is the responsibility of the one that injected it for the sole fact that we are NOT perfect, and apparently everyone, including God, knows this. Apparently he knows ahead of time that we're going to screw it all up. Some of us are apparently alive for the sole purpose of screwing it up. And for serving our sole purpose, our reward is eternal punishment.

We're given "free will" apparently, and we retain that free will even after being influenced this way and that by differing information - none of which we truly have the wherewithal to determine is fact. And because we're supposedly imperfect, it's impossible to determine what the real truth is unless we all do one thing. Stop thinking. Completely. That is the only way to not be influenced by the information available.

I find this to be contradictory. We MUST think to decide the right thing, but we must NOT think in order to decide the right thing. Well which is it? This is what I call the stacked deck.

I'll put it another way...maybe one more tangible.

I pray about this all the time. Deeply. I really want to know what the right answer is so I can do right things. I'm a seeker, and I want nothing more than to serve the truth. Anyone that knows me will tell you this. And God has spoken loudly in my heart, and the answer is always the same. It's what I've just told everyone here and have told everyone in many other places. Now...where does that leave things? If you don't believe my claim is legitimate, then you must dispense with other claims as well (aka the Bible), for why should I not also be heard regarding what God has told my heart? Do I have to write it all in verses and chapters for it to be worthy? Maybe if I bury it in a mason jar and it gets digged up 1000 years from now, someone will listen? Will you listen now, or will you write me off as a crackpot? I claim divine inspiration through the humble solicitation of my soul for the answers to my questions. I received answers. Directly. Just like all those Bible fellows. But I already know what you'll think about this, because I was told that, too. I will be written off. I already have been, many times.

Apparently in revelations it says 'not to be deceived.' Well when Jesus does make his return appearance, who of you will believe him - or will you just kill him like always? You certainly don't mind writing off anyone that suggests you might have part of it wrong. You've got it all figured out already. Cool. Jesus better hope he doesn't disagree with your interpretations, or once again, he's a dead man.

Ock, what does the divine inspiration tell you?

Ock, what does the divine inspiration tell you?

I thought I'd explained this in spades, but ok.
2 It tells me that we are wasting our time trying to discern an absolute value to God.
3 That there isn't a right or wrong answer that we can determine through texts.
4 It tells me that doing the right thing is a part of consciousness,
5 and one does not need to subscribe to a theory of Creation in order to do the right thing.
6 It tells me that God doesn't care at all if I help out someone because I'm a Christian
7 or because I'm a Muslim
8 or because I'm a Buddhist
9 or because I'm just a nice guy.
10 That what is important is I was helpful.
11 It tells me the Bible,
12 and the Qu'ran,
13 and myths,
14 and legends,
15 and experiences related from the heart,
16 are all guides to understanding that being kind to our fellow human beings is more important than quoting the reasons why from said texts.
17 And, in accordance with Christian philosophy, I feel forgiven before I started.
18 That I was to be who I was,
19 and do the best I could,
20 and that was enough.
21 But I didn't feel this because I was Christian...I felt it because it made logical sense.
22 That divine purpose,
23 if there is one (which I am honest with myself about saying I am not sure),
24 includes what I do in an omniscient way.
25 That such a divine purpose would already know what I would add and what I would subtract from the world and would understand all of the whys involved in it.
26 And that I wouldn't be punished for my nature which was given me BY this same divine entity who already knew everything I was going to do anyway.
27 I was further told that no mistake was ever made. Everything is exactly how it should be.