Enough is Enough - The Church MUST Put its House in Order

I totally agree.  But let us not paint one denomination with the brush of the perversion of the faith.  It is not restricted to one faith, but due to the nature of that faith (centralized), it is being blared in such a manner as to indicate it is.  It is not.  The Catholic faith is centralized, so it is easy to gather statistics, and to chastize them.  However, the perversion is not restricted to just Catholics:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286153,00.html

It is a perversion of all faiths. 

Sadly there are these kinds of sickos in every walk of life and probably have been for as long as Man has walked this little planet.

Very cynical - and unfortunately too true. There is a reason that some professions attract them (teachers, ministers, priests). because of the availability of the victims.

Just a question, how would someone go about putting the Churches 'house' in order? also what would that look like?

"Just a question, how would someone go about putting the Churches 'house' in order? also what would that look like?"

Good question, frankly I personally dont know, I do not have the depth of knowledge of the Church internal politics to be able to put together a lasting solution. I believe the values that Religion in general, Christianity in particular, have great value in following in order to achieve a balanced life. I dont subscribe to the theological elements, but the values it promotes I certainly do. Regretably even those values will inevitably be under attack now as they will lack credibility with the mounting scandal.

Find a solution they must, for whilst I am not a believer in a Supreme Entity (but will defend the right of others to pocess such a belief), I do believe the surrounding values promoted as a result of the existence of that Faith, are immensely important. For those values to loose credibility due to this - a likely long term outcome - would be a disaster with emmense wide ranging consequencies.

Why is the Catholic Church treated so very differently than other institutions? Imagine the outrage if it was a series of Imams at Mosques that perpetrated these acts?

How to put the house in order? Aggressive criminal prosecution against priests and other clerics involved in such heinous acts or in the concealment of such acts, confiscation of Church properties to pay damages to victims and closing churches in the worst areas for a period of not less than 10 years...that would clean it up real quick.

According to the John Jay Report commissioned by the Church itself, 4392 priests sexually molested thousands (approximately 15,000) children during the 1990s. Further, senior Church members acted in violation of common sense,if not the law, by protecting these priests and moving them from location to location.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger himself, before ascending to the Papacy, grossly understated the degree of the problem. Even after internal reports stating that 5% of the priests in the Boston area, 6% of the priests in the Baltimore area and an un-Godly 7% of the priests in the Manchester, New Hampshire area were involved in pedophilia, Ratzinger said less than 1% of priests were involved. Thats right...he "misspoke." (Source: Sin Against the Innocents, based on documents used in court cases.)

There is nothing new here. In 1741, Pope Benedict XIV wrote the Sacramentum Poenitentiae. Basically it recognized that priests were soliciting sexual favors,even from children, during confession. Two hundred and fifty years later, the Church has allowed this illness to fester. Close down the Arch-diocese in Boston and watch how quickly the Church acts.

And while we are at it, close down all churches that have sinned due to the sinners. None are exempt While there are millions of churches/synagogues, there are only thousands of miscreants. But then we must purge all traces, and to do that, we must erradicate all avenues in which they may travel.

Burn the world! then we will get them all.

Of course there is nothing new here, it has long been known by many down the Ages, the key point is that the Church has allowed it to fester. In the modern day and age, we demand concrete evidence in a court of law - for good reason, although in cases such as this there is a temptation to short cut the system.

As to why the initial comment is against the Catholic Church, that’s self evident, its the largest Christian Church, and arguably the oldest - it certainly touts itself as such. Therefore in getting attention in these times it is always going to be the media target in the latter's core business, and prime consideration, of circulation wars.

As to closing individual churches that were / have been involved, I am a little more cautious. Certainly it removes the miscreant, but it also punishes the remainder of the congregation who, by overwhelming majority, were not involved. There is also the view that the Church has immense reserves of money, albeit now locked up in assets in these enlightened modern financially astute times - anyone who believes the Catholic Church is "poor" is either very naive, or lacks any kind of knowledge of the growth of the institution in the Middle Ages - arguably both. I don’t believe they will actually even feel the bump financially - for sure, huge figures will be trumpeted about, but the relative financial damage - whilst by no means small in absolute terms - will be relatively easy to absorb without much long term pain.

The issue needs to be tackled at an internal political level where it will hurt the most. The Pope is elected by a group (very large group) of Cardinals, not some mystic divine intervention, it is there where my gut reaction concerning the solution lay, As to how to make that a reality, I don’t know, as I do not know enough about the very introvert closed door politics of the hierarchy in Rome. Without doubt that is where the power of the Church is, and is certainly where the ambitious individual aspires to. As with anything find the power base, then its weakness. The power base is clear, has been for Centuries with the Wars and horrific actions carried out sponsored by the Cardinals in the Dark & Middle Ages, but at that point my knowledge gives way as to how to ensure we don’t just remove one idiot and replace them with another - such is the depth and breadth of this depravity in the Church, to the detriment of the overwhelming majority in the church who are not so inclined. The latter maybe a harsh comment, but almost uniquely, the Church must be seen - and actually be - whiter than white on moral values, if it is to be successful in spreading them - fairness does not come into it - reality and perception is all.

Even though I am a "non believer" in a theological sense, I do passionately believe in the values Christianity puts forward. The Church is already going through the pains of almost terminal decline in many countries - and the "head in the sand" attitude to sagas like this explain why - but, sadly, its reaping what it sows. Up to the Industrial Revolution it could get away with doing nothing, sweep it under the carpet, and it most certainly did, as Communication means throughout the world were not capable of near instant information spread, nor were communication means so wide and deep as now. Now, there is nowhere to hide, and the previous methods of brush it under the carpet will not work - arguably the opposite would be true, purge it loudly and publicly, we seem to love people apologising these days.

There is no simple solution, but find one we must, and it must take account of the dynamics of the deeply rooted internal politics emanating out from Rome. The Catholic Church was responsible for some of the most horrific acts imaginable in the Dark & Middle Ages, albeit those times were not exactly a bed of roses for any institution of the times. Nonetheless, despite that checkered past, it is a potential force for doing much good work in modern times, even more than it actually does, limited as it is by the power politics amongst the Cardinals in Rome. We need the Institution it represents, and we cannot afford it to just let it quietly wither away and die "on the vine".

Neither can the children who will suffer from this in the future without a lasting solution - whether its existence is "Old News" or not.

"Burn the world! then we will get them all."
Hardly, but even such indirect defence cannot excuse it, nor provide a reason for inaction. The Church raises itself to be the ultimate source and arbitor of moral values, it cannot possibly even begin to carry out that role if it bligthly sweeps these kinds of problems under the carpet labelled "others do it, so keep quiet and they wont notice". I also doubt they will ever purge it totally, it is buried deep in the genetic make up of some Human Beings, but they must try, and be seen to try with better motivations than a flippant "Burn the world then we get them all".

Dr. Guy, there is no substance to your reply, only your emotion. You act as if all churches have sinned equally, but that is FAR from the case. In fact, I cited the three worst offenders and suggested applying the penalty where the worst crimes took place. You respond with the "Burn the world!" hyperbole because you have nothing else to say

Two parts of my post that were not addressed: If it was a mosque that had allowed clerics to molest thousands of children, what would be the response? Would Dr. Guy step forward and defend them? I think not.

Forget the Moslems, treat the Catholic church like we treat other Christians. We just arrested Warren Jeffs of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for one count of sexual assault and one count of conspiracy. He was public enemy number one.

Secondly is the point that senior Church clerics violated the LAW by concealing crimes. Do what you want about sin or do nothing as the Church has always done. These are crimes. Bernard Law, who acknowledged his misdeeds is allowed to remain a Cardinal!!! He orchestrated pay-offs to families, concealed criminal activity and who knows what else. Law had the Boston Arch-diocese seek bankruptcy protection so that it would have to pay restitution to its victims. 450 kids were proven to have been molested, some repeatedly over years while the Church knew of it and you want to deny reparations to these innocent victims and their families. If the Boston Archdioces is financially bankrupt (we already know that it is morally bankrupt) then let it close down.

Oh, and lest you think that I am being overly harsh, read this: WWW Link

Headline: "Cardinal (Roger Mahony of Los Angeles): There is no way to go back and give them their innocence" LA Archdiocese settles sex abuse claims for $660 million.

Oh, the penitent Cardinal says "Mea culpa!" If only I could give you back your innocence....He should only be struck down will saying that!

The Cardinal managed to prevent these cases from ever being heard in court and forced a settlement on the victims, who have now been "screwed" twice. He marshaled the Churches lawyers and dragged the case on for six years until the victims were worn out:

"The cardinal's dragged this on for a good five or six years now," one of the victims said. "Where we are at today or tomorrow with this settlement, could we have been here four, five or six years ago? Yes, we could have been if the cardinal had been outright and come forward and settled all these claims."

The Church isn't suffering as a result. More than a third of the money will be paid by insurance. Church business will proceed as usual, no priests arrested, no churches closed.

If this were an individual who had molested hundreds of kids, violated the law by not cooperating with police and then paid a small fine...Would that be justice?

Two parts of my post that were not addressed: If it was a mosque that had allowed clerics to molest thousands of children, what would be the response? Would Dr. Guy step forward and defend them? I think not.

Hyperbole?  Perhaps.  But your response of penalizing 95% for the sins of the 5% was what I directed that statement at.  I was not (and if you have read me you know I do not) defending any of them.  What I was and am railing against is the mindset that we must penalize innocents for the guilt of the few.  It is antithetical to what this country was founded upon, and against most ideals of civilized man.  We are not even talking about "the sins of the father" being transferred to the son, rather, the sins of one member of an organization being branded on all members.

In the last few years of the last century, and the first few of this one, we had numerous examples of people abusing their offices of responsibilty in the Corporate world.  Are we to destroy all corporations because of the sins of the few?  That is what the quoted statement indicated.

But the true irony of your response was throwing in the Muslims, as if that would make me want to condemn all Muslim clerics due to the sins of the few.  WHile that may be a popular theme these days for other reasons, I would ask that you find where I have indicated that we punish all Muslim clerics for the sins of the few.

To be fair and honest with you, and what can be found among my writings, is that I have said that a greater scrutiny be paid to Muslim clerics, and that can easily and justly be applied to Catholic Priests as well.  A greater scrutiny - given the history and the nature of the vocation, is not condemning all the innocents for the sins of the few, but making sure that the ones who have a propensity or even the desire to do evil are rooted out before they can do it.

While some may even decry that, this principal is not unknown even in our democracy, as you cannot walk in off the street and get a top secret job just because you want it.  You have to undergo a greater background check than someone applying for the burger flipping job.

It is an institutional problem. It happens with FAR GREATER frequency in the Catholic Church than elsewhere and in some particular Archdiocese where it is permitted. Bernard Law, for example, turned a blind eye to the problem in Boston. He said so.

I suggested "closing churches in the worst areas for a period of not less than 10 years." Not all churches, the ones in the worst areas. So much for "penalizing 95% for the sins of the 5%."

But the Church isn't going to do that. It is going to allow business to go on as usual, move the offenders to new areas and pay off the victims.

You may want to also read my article on "Is Your Religion Wounded?" at WWW Link

If that is not a case of seeing the mote in your neighbor's eye, but not the beam in your own, I don't know what is.

No it does not. The problem or the advantage depending upon your view point, is that the Catholic Church is hierarchical, whereas protestant denominations are not (nor is ultimately the Jewish or Muslim faith). So statistics can be obtained and shown for a single entity instead of doing the leg work, as the Insurance companies did in the referenced article, to track down how prevalent it is within a vocation that is not restricted to a faith.



You contradict yourself here. One cannot "turn a blind eye" to a practice that is "permitted". You can only turn a blind eye to a practice that is not permitted.

But more so, you have just committed the same sin I accused you of earlier. But this time you decided that I must condone/explain/excuse this abhorrent behavior through whatever prejudices you have. That not only frightens me for the implications it brings, but saddens me as well as I expected more than heated hyperbole from you.

Let me address some issues individually:



Closing churches. So I can only assume that you understand a church to be the priest and/or Bishop in charge, and that is it. While I am sure that many people view the Catholic Church that way, that is far from the case. Just as a Protestant church is not just the minister, a Jewish synagogue is not just the rabbi, or a Mosque is not just the Imam. All of those institutions, aside from the building they meet in, are a community of people. It is the community of people that make the building more than just a Lodge hall, and make it a church. closing them would then penalize all the people, not just the clergy, and thus penalize all the people for the sins of the few. Indeed, while I stated 95% in haste, a more accurate figure is 99%+.

So again, hopefully after explaining my point clearer, and perhaps (or not) educating you on what a Church is, I maintain that closing them would penalize the vast majority of innocents, to get at the guilty. This has been done in the past by many societies (wanting not to inflame this response, I hesitate to name some of the more egregious examples of such behavior), but goes against the very foundation of the United States.



No, the CHURCH is not doing that. Again, are we to lock up every employee of Enron because of Ken Lay? By your insinuation and statement, you seem to think that yes, we should, for in their lack of action to reign him in, they agreed with and condoned his antics. By your own statement, you have thus indicated that. I have not nor will not defend the "officers" of the church who have done that, but instead of directing your condemnation at the guilty, you would chose to label an entire people based upon the sins of some.



I have read that article, and will comment on that one in a separate article as I find it to be slanted, inflammatory, and bigoted.

"He orchestrated pay-offs to families"

I find the criticize of this interesting. I've read this thread. People are calling for just less than blood. I am not against bringing the offenders to justice. In fact, I am completely for it. You all call for closing churches and selling everything off of the churches to pay the families. And then this quote come up.
While this next part is pure speculation, I'm quite confident that something to this degree had to occur for a pay off to exist. The families, once the children came forward, approached the Bishops. They said they had a claim against the priest and wanted him removed. Being of sound mind, the Bishops probably started an investigation into the matter. Upon coming to an agreement with the family that such an act did occur, they probably discussed the next course of action. First, they probably discussed how to eliminate the threat of a repeat...therefore they move the priest or turn him over to the police, being that the family chooses to press charges. Then the Bishop wants to make confident family is content of the Church's intent to fix the situation. So he asks what more they want done. Very few Catholics out there, if for the most part they are solidily founded in their faith, would call for blood even if they or their loved ones were wronged. However, since the logic of the State would be to send the matter to the courts and ultimately end up with the families getting into a court battle for money, then the Bishop offers to settle out of court. This is not intended to shield the Church from media. If anything, it seems that the media is far more curious in out-of-court settlements because they have to dig for details, scupability (new word). The Bishops knew from the beginning that there is no hiding the truth. But the families have already be hurt by the actions of one man, in whom they had placed much trust. Why would the Bishops want to have the families go through any more pain of court battles, especially if they knew that the act had occurred. The Church was damaged by the sin to more of a degree than could any media coverage or court battles. But there was still a way to shield the families from more damage. Can you imagine what it would be like to have that tied up in court battles for months and months? It's like reopening the wound, having everyone probe it and deepen it, and then pour some salt in the wound (money). Because at the end of the day, the money does nothing.

It's been said that the Church hasn't felt the impact of the millions of dollars. I can post a list of links proving the otherwise. The last thing the Church ever wants to do is to close a church. It would rather do anything but that, because that act punishes the faith communities who rely upon that church.

But what amazes me is your concern for the Catholic Church. Seriously, you all are actually concerned for the well-being of the Church. You apparently (by your limited and targeted condemnation of these acts) don't really care about the victims or the hidiousness of the crime. You don't, apparently, want it stopped anywhere else. Therefore, one of logic must assume that you have a deep desire for reform of the Church. I'm thankful. I am a Catholic. It's is truly nice to see that people of other faiths, evident from your lack of knowledge about the Church and self-admission, can be so concerned about the future of the one Church. I'm sure this comes off as snide to you all. I wish I could just see you all face to face. Because I really am not meaning this as snide or crude. It is heartfelt. I've been deprived of sarcasm for about a year now since coming to Japan; it just doesn't exist in their language. So I've started abandoning it myself. Please know that I am thankful. You actions speak to your intent. Judging from your words and how you've targeted the Church for reform and calling for an improvement in policy, what else, logically, could be the reason?

As this saga unfolds, I really do get more and more frustrated with the reaction from many quarters, as I am sure many people do.

Whenever events of this serious a nature surface, the reaction is vertually guaranteed - this is unfair, what about him, and him, and him - ahhh you dont understand you obviously dont have the inherent intellect to realise that this is a factor, that is a factor, what about this, what about that. Strewth, it makes me want to scream. No one in their right mind believes this is isolated to the Catholic Church, or even just to Christian Faiths, good grief this disgraceful conduct has been going on for Centuries, its not exactly the secret of mankind, or the revelation of the last two millenium.

I am increasingly sick and tired, of defensive reactions to serious issues, and a total lack of resolution by those concerned to damn well get on with and resolve it once and for all. The general public is not so stupid as to assume all are tarred by the same brush, equally they know full well that this particular issue has been dealt with in the past by unacceptable practices (in ALL - once again for those hard of hearing ALL - faiths) more designed to preserve reputations than solving the issue and protecting the children potentially at risk in the future, and helping those who have suffered at this moment in time.

Emotional, absolutely, ignores peripheral issues, absolutely the priority is solve this mess NOW, the inquisition can come later.

To those who have the power and the responsibility to resolve this once and for all without the Centuries old tactic of smoke and mirrors, my plea is a simple one - you want people to respect your particular Faiths? Fine, get on with it and STOP this inane, archaic and horrific practice.. Then maybe, just maybe, the numbers of devout followers may start to rise as people start to regain trust in institutions that over the ages - time after time - have set and given pathetic examples to follow.

For once, lets all put our hands up, and say "right lets sort this mess out", and for once do it thinking first and formost of those caught up in it.. There is a time for intellectual disussion, a time for finger pointing - now is not it. Stop the waffle and smoke screen and get on with it.

It makes my blood boil.

"this is unfair, what about him, and him, and him - ahhh you dont understand you obviously dont have the inherent intellect to realise that this is a factor"
-- I would like you point out to me the people who did not first come out against this issue and agree with everyone, saying that it is a horrible atrocity and needs to end. I would like to comment directly to them, asking them why would they not first chastise the evil of this crime against the innocent before doing anything else. Please, cite me examples on this site. Not having the inherent intellect, I can't discover them on my own. My own addition cites in the first part, before I get into any other discussion, "I am not against bringing the offenders to justice. In fact, I am completely for it."

What more can you want? That is full agreement and compliance right there. I can't state that any clearer. Now if you want me to call for blood as you all do, I'm afraid I don't believe that is justice or helping anyone. Justice is to remove and punish the responsible people, namely the priests who molested the boys and young men. I would suggest not punishing the other innocent who were also hurt by the crimes of these individuals, namely the parishioners and Catholics at large.

Please answer this question if you care nothing else for my reply: how hard have you looked for the Church's actions in helping this situation? Do you even want to find out?

"No one in their right mind believes this is isolated to the Catholic Church" -- Then why has no one else seemed to set up to criticizing it anywhere else. Why is it that the moment you mention child molesters people say, "Catholic priest?" I would agree you, no one in their right mind. But it's so hard to find people in their right minds. If they are inundated with the media, whom they worship as faultless, that reports only on the Catholic church, what are they to believe then? Already on this forum, no one but Catholics have pointed that issue out. Already we have seen the definition for discrimination fulfilled by the people on this forum: from http://www.adl.org/ "(1)discrimination is the restrictive treatment of a person or group based on prejudiced assumptions of group characteristics, rather than on individual judgment" and "(2) discrimination is denying justice and fair treatment to an individual or group of people." People want to punish the whole Church for the individual's sins, judging the group instead of the individual.

So in light of open discrimination against the Church, I, being one of those members, wants to offer up some facts in place of speculation. I want to offer alternatives to your prejudgments. I want to shed light on the other side that you don't hear from the sensational media.

"more designed to preserve reputations than solving the issue and protecting the children potentially at risk in the future" -- you seem to do the same of sorts (more designed to cast a bad reputation for the Church than solving...). You are here condemning the Church, and only the Church, while children are out there in danger. But not just from the Catholic priest (back on the individuals now), not just from the Jewish rabbi (again, the individuals), not just the Protestant ministers (individuals), but also from teachers (individ.), and police men (indiv), and that guy at the bus stop (ind), and the guy in the dark alley (i), but most importantly the closest to the children their uncles (i), and their dad (i, and this maybe the worst of all cases), and it's not just men out there doing this, women are wolves in sheep's garments for they are just as capable and less conspicuous. Wow! Now there is a list. But in all that time, surely some child's innocence has just been robbed.

Now, you've made your suggests and your prejudice clear about the Church. Do you have anything better to offer for viable ways to stop it on the much grander scale? Or do you really not care about that? Do you just want to hold on to that hatred of the Church, while children are loosing their innocence? Hold onto it that anger, and it will continue to bitter and blacken you. And anything, even the best and greatest of holy things done for people, you will scowl at. For your sight will be so blackened that even though you are staring at the glory of God, you will call it the darkness of the abyss. So perverse will all things become to you.

Instead of spending your time cursing, why don't you light a match in the darkness?

I dont hate the church, incorrect assumption, you are so wide of the mark its unreal. I have no prejudice against the Church, incorrect assumption. You are jumping to conclusions in defensive mode. If it helped to sort this mess out I'd use a damn flamethrower if it was more effective, let alone a match - anything is better than defensive spin.



Oh I care - much more than that utterly disgraceful remark implies.

I get back to my central point, the Institutions involved in these dispicable acts must stop the smoke and mirrors, and take positive action to prevent it happening again. It will never be stopped totally, of course, its in the genetic make up of some, but that does not excuse inaction or cover up. Nor does it excuse simplistic actions designed to reduce scandal (eg transferring them to other areas - that hardly stops it reoccuring). Nor does it help when many say "Please Miss they are doing it as well" in the guise of the six year old caught in the act of some misdemeanor in the school playground.

I dont give a damn which institution it was, its hardly relevant, it just so happens the light is shining on the Catholic Church at present because of recent events. Thats Life - if an institution holds itself to be the final arbitor on moral values, dont be surprised if the media and the public in general go for the throat. With Leadership there comes responsibility, with responsibility there comes the reality of accepting the consequencies of failed values and aspirations.

When events such as this occur, it is horrible for true believers, and my heart goes out to them almost as much as those who were abused. To have their trust in an institution shattered in this way, is a hard reality to accept.

I have stated clearly in the past, unequivocally, that whilst I am not a "believer" I do passionately believe in the values put forward by Christian Faiths as a decent way of life, and follow those values - hardly a mark of someone who "hates" the Church, or is deeply "prejudice".

What I do hate is defense responses from Institutional Leadership and others - whatever that institution is - designed first and foremost to minimise the bad news, preserve reputations and keep myths alive. Our children deserve better. Its happened, all concerned should stop self denial, and spin, and join together to sort this out. Past attempts over the Centuries have failed, why do you think so many people are so angry?

Evangelical responses from many assuming all want to put the knife in the Church are so way off the mark its laughable. The Church is a core institution we need, of whatever Faith varient various people have, to promote decent moral standards and a sound way of living. You dont have to believe in a Supreme Deity, to hold those values of common decency, nor have to believe in a Supreme Deity to understand the need for the Church to survive to uphold those values.

But it will not survive unless it takes its collective head out of the sand and sort the problem out within its particular sphere of influence - its not rocket science.

LARRY KUPERMAN POSTS:

Ever since 2001, the pro-homosexual movement and the big media elites who loath the Catholic Chruch for its traditional stance on sexual morality have hyped the sexual abuse of children to make it seem as though it's an exclusive Catholic problem.

Kuperman, you talk about sex abuse as an institutional problem, how about the sex abuse children suffer in the public schools? Now and then we hear about it when a young woman teacher has sex with a minor age boy, but that's about it. For those of you who think our children are safe and sound in public schools, think again.

Zydor, are you aware of this and if you are, are you just as outraged?

For those of you who want to get a glimpse of the problem check out professor Charol Shakeshaft of Hofstra University who was commissioned by the US Dept. of Education to do a study on sex abuse in the public schools. Her 2004 report estimated that 10 % of students are victims of sexual misconduct by school officials ranging from sexual comments and advances to rape.

The numbers show that nationwide there are about 45 million school children grades K-12 and there are potentially over 4 million cases of child sexual abuse in government schools alone. Speaking conservatively, this means the sexual abuse of students is more than 100 times the abuse by priests. Why don't we hear about lawyers suing the schools and the media relative silence?

"Zydor, are you aware of this and if you are, are you just as outraged?"

Very sorry for late reply, my fault, didnt realise the question had been posed.

Of course I am - any sane human being would be. However thats hardly the point is it? That gets back to my analogy of the playground "Please Miss they are doing it as well".. Certainly not suggesting thats your particular intent - even if it was, thats your business not mine.

In todays spin driven farce of a world where reputation seems to be the be all and end all, Institutions still dont get the message "stop the smoke and mirrors" when our children are abused. I find it totally incomprehensible that the majority of Faith Leaders are on the defensive on this, they are suppoosed to be drilling moral values into us, not the other way round. Whether or not thats happening, only the Institutions can say, but if it continues whereby the Public perceive its happening, and happening without concerted efforts to achieve resolution, that Instituation is going to wither away to insignificance - we cannot let that happen to the Church(s)/Faith(s).

Given a choice between Institutional survival and our children, our children will win hands down, no contest. The problem is there in Public Schools I totally agree, my children went to Public Schools, I am accutely aware of the issue. I dont believe its resolved to perfection in Public Schools, but I do believe the necessary safeguards that are practical are in place, and far more important, when it occurs there, I am content the Institutions involved will be suitably outraged, and will sort out that local incident. In the real world, not theologicaly driven theory, I can ask for no more.

Faiths are way way from that at this time. The Public perception, right or wrong, is that most Faiths have in the past, been more interested in protecting reputations and myths than anything else. Until that perception (right or wrong) changes, expect to be attacked - especially where our children are concerned. Fair? Whats that got to do with it - its a real world out there not an academic theological session. Hence my comment, they have to take their collective head out of the sand, face the previously unthinkable, and sort it. Will they solve it 100%, of course not, thats insane logic, that will never happen - but they must be seen to be putting in place practical measures to stop this that are monitored and measured for effectiveness, and then on the rare occasions it occurs, have measures to swiftly deal with it.

It boils down to Trust. To use your analogy I Trust the Public School System in its motives and intent to stamp it out. They will of course also go into damage limitation mode as well, I understand that, but equally I Trust them to put the children first, not spin. At the moment I dont have that Trust in some Faiths to do the same because they have effectively dodged this for Centuries. Until I get that Trust back they will get attacked when they dont sort out incidents properly as they occur.

Zero tollerance five years ago was a great start, full marks, but its going to take more than five years to regain the Trust lost over Centuries. We can rebuild that Trust if we all work on it together, its not going to happen if people go into self denial and defensive mode.

Its not rocket science.

Zydor,

Have you read the lastest comments posted on DrGuy's, Sins of the Father"? It seems to me that they more than adequately address Zero tolerance and "people going into self denial and defensive mode" when it comes to clerical sexual molestation. I don't think that both the Church or those of us who commented can any longer be rightfully accused of this.

As far as child sex abuse in the public school system, I think you naive to trust that they are "stamping it out". We are only at the tip of the iceberg on this. And while the media was/is all over covering the Church, they will stay as far away and be mum concerning reporting these cases unless they are extraordinary ones.

I've already mentioned checking out Professor Charol Shakeshaft of Hofstra University who was commissioned by the US Dept. of Education to do a study on sex abuse in the public schools. Her 2004 report estimated that 10 % of students are victims of sexual misconduct by school officials ranging from sexual comments and advances to rape.

The numbers show that nationwide there are about 45 million school children grades K-12 and there are potentially over 4 million cases of child sexual abuse in government schools alone. Speaking conservatively, this means the sexual abuse of students is more than 100 times the abuse by priests. Why don't we hear about lawyers suing the schools?

One reason we don't is becasue it's far mor lucatrive to sue the Catholic Chruch or any church or private organization than it is to sue the local public school district. Most school districts enjoy sovereign immunity for incidents of sexual child abuse unless the state legislature says otherwise.

There is a process that has been carried out among schools called "passing the trash" where those accused of sexual abuse of students are transferred to other schools or districts and the new school is almost never informed about the sexual misconduct of the teacher being transferred.

After invesitgating public school employees, for anyone who is truly interested in protecting young people from sexual molestation, they should investigate Planned Parenthood whose staffers can provide leads on statuary rape that is indispensable.

Planned Parenthood is tied by the apron strings to all public schools by way of sex education. In many cases, PP provides the curriculum, the education of the teachers and social workers, all the books, and other materials. It's a closed system right now that is protected by state law, by the players themselves, and by the "drive-by" elite media.

Here's the problem with that. It has been correctly pointed out the sins of some of the priests in the Catholic Church, and some of the heirarchy in covering it up. It is easy to nail the church since in this case all roads lead to Rome (literally).

The School system is a completely different animal. Having worked in education for many years, I know the problem is as severe - perhaps more so since Children have to be in school (they do not have to go to Church). BUT and it is a big one - there is not one point of control - anywhere. There are thousands and thousands of points of control. Each district is automous within itself. It only answers to the state and feds on policies and procedures (and then often only to get the money). The feds and states have no jurisdiction on the internal management of the system - as long as they are offering the programs that the money is earmarked for.

So when you say you "trust", who do you "trust"? Do you trust 100,000 boards across the country? Each with a handful to a score of administrators? And do you trust them all to do what is right? for if you do, I can tell you that your suspicion of the Church is magnified many fold in the schools. I have seen them do the teacher shuffle - as bad as the church has. And unless the perp is charged (often it takes more than that - at least a conviction) of the crime, they are still there doing it - at another school in the same district.

We hear a lot today about what the priests in the church did years ago, and it is still coming out. And indeed, one would be a fool to think it is not still happening, albeit to a much lesser extent. However, check the headlines of today. And you will see that it is not a problem of yesteryear in the Schools. It is an ongoing problem of today.

This is not a symptom of schools. This is a trait of the perpertrators. They seek out positions where they can find easy prey. It is true in the Catholic Church, the Protestant Churches, Jewish Synagogues, Muslim Mosques, and yes, especially in the schools.

But the only one that has a controlling authority - a single point of authority if you will - is the Catholic Church. So to some, when it comes to child molesting (I have been told that pedophelia is only molesting pre-pubescent children), the easiest target is the Church. And so they are the ones that get the bigotry and condemnation - while the others are ignored.

I hear where you are coming from, I don’t deny there is bigotry around.

You maybe right, I may be naive re Public Schools, time will tell I guess. If it turns out badly lets hope they do move quickly, If they don’t, then I reassess the whole thing in my mind, my reaction will be just as harsh sounding with them if I believe they havent moved properly.

Meanwhile, that situation has no baring on the inequalities that may or may not be present in other Institutions. I have always taken a clear position, I am not a Church hater - quite the opposite for preservation of moral values - you don’t need to believe in a Supreme Deity for that to hold true.

I don’t hate or bash the Church for idealistic reasons, I don’t bash them at all frankly (although I do concede I can be a little blunt at times). We are back to perception again. At present there are issues, lets hope they get resolved by zero tolerance, only time will tell how genuine that is - in past Centuries it has demonstrably not been the case, its happened too often where genuine resolution has not occurred. In those circumstances you cant expect overflowing Trust. Whether that’s a fair stance or not, is not the issue, if the general Public feel that way, it has to be addressed - fair or not. The central issue is the Children, that’s where the debate must fall, not reputation. Too often its the latter, if we all spent more time on solving the childrens problem than debating reputation, maybe we will get to the End Field quicker.

It could well be a case of "Cry Wolf" this time, if it is, then its a mess they got themselves into by not addressing it properly before. I agree its frustrating to see it happen elsewhere, maybe even more elsewhere, and the pain is unequal that’s certainly true, but its inevitable when the Faiths are rightly seen as the "Torch Holders" on values, do not be surprised therefore if higher standards are expected when there is an issue with one of the Torches.

For the Church to make the statement "pedophilia is only molesting pre-pubescent children" is crass to put it mildly when it has a credibility problem on its hands. That’s where I am coming from, I am on the Faiths side - despite being an atheist - but it continually shoots itself in the foot with statements like that. The Public are not interested in hair-splitting, the trend is towards anger when they perceive that’s all there is going on - true or not that’s reality. That classic statement from Faith Leaders can have only one result in most of the Publics mind "here we go again". Hence my phrase they need to take their heads out of the sand, recognise most are willing them to succeed to get rid of this evil, but they cant seem to get that into their heads, and issuing statements like that is mind blowing - its nuts.

I know it hurts, and most in the Public - I believe - feel that too. Its the old story of the Silent Majority. You will hear from the nutters, but they are not the ones to worry about and react to with equal public spin. The latter turns off the Silent Majority, who are fundamentally on the Faiths side, and I believe want to help. If Faith leaders don’t wake up to that, and continually go on the defensive - which is like it or not current perception - the Silent Majority will bury them.

Zero tolerance was a great start, its never happened before, lets see how it goes, but the issuing of that policy will not change perceptions in the short term, not any more, its going to take time now to demonstrate its a serious practical effort. The general perception is, there has been too many false starts to get instant happiness now. The latter is not going to happen, it will take time. Even longer, if they insist on issuing crass statements like that one above.

I don’t hate or bash the Church for idealistic reasons, I don’t bash them at all frankly

I have found this to be true in your writings, and did not mean to imply you with my comment.  However, that is not true of all who are commenting on this issue.

For the Church to make the statement "pedophilia is only molesting pre-pubescent children" is crass to put it mildly when it has a credibility problem on its hands.

It is not the Church (to my knowledge at least) that has brought this distinction to my attention.  It was a comment by kingbee on my own blog (of which this was just a part of the article - not the main point of it).  I have always thought that pedophelia was about children - those under the age of consent.  But according to him (and I have no reason to doubt his claim as it is based on clinical definitions, not denails by any of those under suspicion) and his source:

Pedophilia and child molestation are used in different ways, even by professionals. Pedophilia usually refers to an adult psychological disorder characterized by a preference for prepubescent children as sexual partners; this preference may or may not be acted upon. The term hebephilia is sometimes used to describe adult sexual attractions to adolescents or children who have reached puberty.