Rev 4:1-The Rapture

Is the Rapture (according to your belief) an invitation or a kidnapping?

Do you have to go?

IG

Is the Rapture (according to your belief) an invitation or a kidnapping?

hahahah I laughed when I read this.....it's not a kidnapping for sure. Its actually called the "blessed hope." It's something that's anticipated by all Christians no matter how or which view of the Rapture they believe in. Some may not even think they believe in the rapture at all but are just awaiting the coming of Christ. So, in effect, without realizing it, they may actually believe in the Post Rapture.

Actually the invitation is really earlier, when you accept Christ as personal Savior. It's like you sent it ahead with a positive answer and are now awaiting the day of the party for which you have already been invited. It's sort of like those invites that encourage you to "bring a friend."

What if you don't want to go?

IG

Apoc. 4:1-2 " After these things I looked, and behold a door was opened in heaven, and the first voice which I heard was as it were, of a trumpet speaking with me, said: "Come up hither; and I will show the things which must be done hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the Spirit: and behold there was a throne set in Heaven, and upon the throne one sitting. "

KFC,
you sure have put a lot on the plate concerning this one Scripture passage. I'm sure it doesn't surprise you that in my Catholic opinion, some of it fits (the part in which you refer to the Second COming) and some of it doesn’t. (all the rest!).


Of this passage KFC writes: Pre Trib-The Rapture will occur at the beginning of the tribulation. He will pull us out or snatch us away at the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation period like what we see here in Rev 4:1. We do not see anymore mention of the church after this period.

I totally reject this interpretation, KFC, as unbiblical for it implies that Christ returns twice---once secretly or silently for the Rapture of believers and again at the end of the world. The pre-trib Rapture contradicts the original teaching of Jesus Christ and His Apostles.


The Catholic Church rejects as unbiblical the "pre-tribulation Rapture". Premillennialism, which includes “Rapturism” (or pre-tribulational dispensationalism) started toward the end of the 1800s with the rise of 'end times' sects as the Jehovah Witnesses, the Mormons, and various Adventists groups. Now, the Rapture theory is widely popular among many Fundamentalists and Evangelical Protestants. The Rapturist position is the theology underlying the Left Behind series and Hal Lindsey’s, the Late Great Planet Earth.

The major point of contention revolves around the meaning and timing of the Millennium which Scripture describes as a thousand year reign of Christ. BUT----when does it occur? What is the nature of this reign, corporeal or spiritual? How literal is the thousand year reign? Do you think the thousand year reign could be happening right now---that it could be the Church age?

Of the Millennium, those pre-trib Rapturists who follow the Left Behind scenario would say: Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior now, and you will be raptured into Heaven before the so-called 7 year Great Tribulation. Then we'll return with Christ at His Second Coming which precedes the Millennium. They we will reign with Him in a corporeal Kingdom here on earth centered in Jerusalem for a thousand years. After the Millennium, we will experience the joys of Heaven for eternity.

Don't worry, you won't be forced to go. It's a choice we make when we decide to follow Christ. His promise was he was going to prepare a place for us and he was coming back. But he certainly isn't going to take any not willing to go.



oh yeah!!! I was expecting you Lula....what took you so long? Let the fun begin..



well I don't think so, but I did give the diff viewpoints. But the Rapture itself really can't be contested....it's just a matter of when it's going to happen.



no you're wrong here or what you're reading is wrong. I was involved in all three of these religions, and NONE of them believe in the rapture.



yes, you are somewhat correct here. Especially the Left Behind books have made it more visible and popular but the belief in the rapture has been around long before either Hal Linsey or Tim LaHaye.



Literal. It's mentioned six times in one chapter and the OT prophets wrote alot about it... Ezekiel wrote about the millennium temple in Chap 40-42 of his book. Some have suggested we're in the 1,000 year reign but not sure how they get that. Christ has been gone for 2,000 years already so how does that work out? Besides, it's clear in Revelation that Satan will be bound during this time. Do you think Satan is bound now?



Yes this is a fair description of pre-trib.

I want to say that I'm not dogmatic here. How can I be? I will say tho that I lean towards pre-trib but mid-trib sounds interesting as well. I definitely reject the Post Trib idea. In fact some of the groups you mentioned say they don't believe in the Rapture (like I said) but do believe in the 2nd coming. I just tell them they believe in the post trib rapture but they just don't realize it. You can't deny the teaching because of what Paul and John wrote about it.

If you mean the Rapture as the Second Coming, then I'm on board, that's true, absolutely true and no one is left behind on that.

But, you indicated the Rapture as something else....that born again believers have a separate visit from Christ that He will free them from the final tribulation and that's neither the way of the Cross nor biblical..a fun fancy..a fictional story..a far out movie, but not biblical.

Why isn't it biblical?

Consider the idea that your body is the Temple and Christ hasn't been gone at all...he is here in the Spirit just as He said He would be. When we get further into the Book of Apocaplyse you'll see it speaks of the Temple as the Chruch (spritual Temple) and as us, we are the Temple too.

It's not a physical, real type, literal building that you are imagining will be rebuilt. Christ is done with the Old Covenant and the Temple with its bloody sacrifice...it will not be restored as some think. Antichrist is going to profane the Holy Eucharist at Catholic Churches, that's going to be the abomination of desolation...the sacrilege of sacrileges. Antichrist is going to shut down the Chruch and we will have to go underground to celebrate Mass. We will be put to death if found out.
Christ will be with us until the end of the earth because we will have Him in the Holy Eucharist to strengthen and nourish us. As easily as you can see your version, I will point how Scripture points to this. It's all right there. You have put me in over-drive to study it thoroughly enough to be able to write about it.

We are in the last days now..Christ founded His kingdom during the First Advent; it's the Church. This time that is spent now isn't just a 'lull' as you have called it, a "parenthesis" in the time line. The Messianic Kingdom isn't still in the future. It's now, it's the Church now, awaiting its fullness at the Second Coming.

The 7 year Great Tribulation has already occurred and ended at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Daniel's timeline has already been fulfilled. Today, the Chruch and yes, believers are going through trial, tribulation and persecution. Our faith is being tested. It's a fire and we are being purified. Some will fall away. Worse times are ahead. Christ could come at any moment. There is no secret Rapture. Darby came up with that idea to get followers.

Yes, Satan is bound to the point that this is the time where conversion is still ongoing. When that time is over, Satan is let loose, it's going to be real bad. That's going to be at the very end just before the final battle. We know who wins   

KFC, in the main article you ask , “What will it be like when we "go up?" and that’s a good and legitimate question.

Scripture tells us the only time that each one of us will “go up”. It is which ever comes first: either upon our death and after our Particular Judgment OR at the end of the world when Christ comes again to judge the living and the dead of which no one, except God, knows the hour or the day when will occur. Those of us who are judged worthy of eternal life will “go up” as you say.


First, something about death which God pronounced to Adam and Eve after their sin. Gen. 2:17; 3:19; Rom. 5:12; 6:23. Death is the dissolution of the union between our immortal soul and our physical body which must happen to every human being at the end of his life.

What happens immediately after death? Catholicism teaches that everyone will be judged at their death (the Particular Judgment) as well as on the Last Day at the General or Last Judgment. Judgment immediately following death is when we must appear before the judgment seat of God and give an account of all we have done and left undone. St.Paul says “It’s a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Heb. 10:31. And again, “I am not conscious to myself of anything, yet am I not hereby justified; but He that judgeth me is the Lord.” 1 Cor. 4:4. Particular Judgment is based on Hebrews 9: 27, “...it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment..”


You brought up 1 Thess 4:15-17.

1 Thess as well St. Matt 25 take place at the Second Coming of the Lord for the Last Judgment. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 concerns the general resurrection of the dead which occurs before St.Matt.25: 31-46 (Christ separating the elect from the wicked ) and both occur on the Last Day.

1Thess. 4:15-17,
15 "For this we say to you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not proceed those who are asleep
16 For the Lord Himself shall come down from heaven with a word of command, and with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are IN Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord. Comfort one another with these words."

St.Paul tells the Thessalonians the order in which things will occur during the general resurrection of the dead which proceeds the Last Judgment.

St.Paul and the Thessalonians assume that the Second Coming (Parousia) will occur within their lifetime, yet he insists that the time is unknown 5:1-2. One of the doubts of the Thessalonians is will the dead be under any disadvantage from those who are still alive when the Parousia of the Lord happens. St.Paul tells them that those who are still alive will have no advantage over those who have died v. 15-18.

At the end of the world, with the solemn blast of the trumpet, God will cause all men, the living and the dead to be summoned to the Last Judgment. All of us, everyone everywhere, will come before Christ at the Last Judgment. Scripture tells the order of the who, the how and where this will occur.

The first event that will happen upon the end of the world is the general resurrection of the dead v. 16. God will send out His angels who will blow a mighty trumpet blast that will re-echo throughout the whole world and cause the earth to tremble. Everyone must obey the sound. Every one, including those conceived in the womb, that has died, will rise again in the general resurrection of the dead. St.Paul says, “We shall indeed all rise again, but we shall not all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible; and we shall be changed.” 1Cor. 40: 51-52.

V. 16 tells us the first to be resurrected from the dead are those who have died IN Christ. This is the resurrection of the good or elect. Concerning this Christ says, “He shall send His angels with a trumpet and a great voice; and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them.” St.Matt. 24:31.

The general resurrection begins while the trumpet sound still re-echoes over the globe. Awakened by the sound, all the souls of the just will come down from the farthest parts of heaven accompanied by their guardian angels. The grave site where their bodily remains were will be opened and through the power of God the body made incorrupt will be reunited with the soul. This on the authority of God’s omnipotence and His word, no matter how long ago the body of a man may have turned into dust, whatever changes it went through, every portion and particle will unite to form again the same body which was during his lifetime. “And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them.” Apoc. 20:13.

That the just will take precedence over the wicked is told by Christ, “Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh where all that are in their graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. And they that have done good things shall come forth to the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment” St.Jn. 5:28-29.

The resurrection of the wicked follows immediately upon that of the just...but it’s different for them. In every burying ground of the lost souls the bodies will resemble devils more than men, thus soul and the body will mutually anathematize each other.

Next is the manner in which the good and the wicked will be conducted to the place of the Last Judgment. According to OT prophet Joel 3:2-12, the Last Judgment will be held in the valley of Josaphat, not far from Jerusalem.

If the good and evil are found together in the grave sites, that will come to pass which our Lord predicted, “So shall it be at the end of the world, the angels shall go out and shall separate the wicked from among the just.” St. Matt. 13:39. Since the good are laid to rest amongst the wicked, it follows that at the general resurrection , they will be found amongst the wicked as well. Accordingly, after the general resurrection, the holy angels will come and separate the just elect from the wicked reprobate.

This is where v. 17 applies, “Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord......"

“shall be taken together with them” that is those elect who have just risen from the dead in the general resurrection. St.Paul tells them that those who are alive, who are left, will be caught up, that is changed, made from being corruptible and mortal to being incorruptible and immortal, and together with those elect who have just risen from the dead, will be taken in the clouds to meet Christ in the air. So, all the good, all the elect, will be carried on the clouds in splendor and great glory by the holy angels to the place of judgment.

There is no time that Scripture allows for a silent or secret coming of Christ to Rapture or take up believers. The Rapture is an unbiblical concept.

If Satan is bound, then why do I still see him and his demons at work?

So if we're in a 1000 year period already, Lula, when did it start? When will it end?

The time of the Chruch blessing is known as the Millennium. St.John describes the Chruch age in Apoc. 20:1-6.

The age started with the birth of the Church at Christ's Passion. Satan was then definitively defeated but his public chaining occurred when the Temple of Jerusalem fell. From here on Christ rules with his saints over a world-wide spiritual kingdom.

The blessings of Daniel are being bestowed via the strong covenant he predicted in 9:27. Daniel's vision is all about the covenantal transitiion...the Old Covenant to the New and his 70th week has been fulfilled. There is no 2,000 plus years (the parenthesis) between the 69th and 70th weeks. The Old Covenant Temple to the New (spiritual grace) has been fulfilled. The 70 week was fulfilled the destruction of Jerusalem which meant the end of biblical Judaism once and for all. Up until that time the fledgling Chruch was confused by having the Temple bloody sacrifice still going on for expiation of sins. In 70AD the Infant Church, free of the OLD Cov. Temple rituals was free and unencumbered to grow the Church in the everlasting New Covenant of grace until the fullness of time. This is the Millennium.

The Millennium is the present Church age in which Christ is reigning in the Church Temple and in the Temple of our body. The secret Rapture idea is simply a token of a falsly spiritualized note notion of believers. It fails to understand that the Chruch is sacramental in nature, a supernatural reality embodied in space and time, nature and history.

This is a spiritual battle. The forces of evil are hampered by GOd's restraining of Satan. The saints of the Church in heaven (who we call the Church Triumphant)have undergone the first resurrection. By their prayers they are active in helping us (the Chruch Militant) during the entire Millennium. The reign of Christ and His Chruch will last a long time, until the Father's plan is complete. At that point, Christ will come again physically in power and glory and enter human history at the Second Advent. No one will escape this final event.

So Millennium doesn't mean 1000 years? It just means a long time?

Exactly. Numbers especially in prophecy denote a symbolic meaning more often than not. Very rarely do numbers denote any empirical value.

It's so interesting becasue in Scripture the symbolic meaning bears more importance than the literal numerical value. We see this throughout Scripture and I'm sure KFC agrees.

Let's take the number 1,000 and examine that in Scripture. Jewish tradition teaches that it was the length of the Davidic kingdom. Scripture states that God owns cattle on a thousand hills. Are we going to start identifying which hills are those exact thousand? Of course not.

# 3 was the number of God.
# 4 was the number symbolizing earth. 7 is 3 plus 4 and 12 three times four signified God working in the world.
# 10 was the number of completion. and multiples of these numbers were most important to the ancient Jews. In the Jewish calendar, the 7th month was the most sacred, being the month of the Feast of the Trumpets, Yom Kippur, and the Feast of the Tabernacles.

Scripture uses two Greek words for time. Chronological time is kronos while salvific time is kairos as described in Ecclesiastes 3: 1-8.

One thousand is the product of 10 times 10 times 10, thus it's a complete and perfect number. God's wealth is totally complete.

How about looking at numbers outside of prophecy? Take the genealogy of Christ for example. In St.Matt. 1:17, Christ's genealogy is organized around the number 14. There are 14 generations fromAbraham to David, 14 from David to the Babylon captivity, and 14 from the Babylonian captivity to Jesus. This splits the genealogy into 'from promise given to promise fulfilled" "from promise fulfilled to promise lost", and finally, where we are now, "from promise lost to promise fulfilled eternally."

Evidently, the Hebrews and other ancients understood people as numbers. 14 was the number of King David.

LULA POSTS:

So, here in Ephesians, we see St.Paul explaining the Chruch and linking the image of "the household of God" to that of God's Temple and "building". 1Cor. 3:9. Up to this point he's spoken of the Church mainly as the body of Christ v. 16 and we have discussed this many times over.

This image and that of a building are connected. Our Lord said, "Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up." St.John 2:9 and he goes on to explain that He was talking about the Temple of his body v.21. If the physical body of CHrist is the true temple of God becasue Christ is the Son of God, the Chruch can also be seen as God's true Temple becasue it is the mystical body of Christ.

The Church is the Temple of God. Jesus Christ is the foundation stone of the New Temple of God. The Father made Him the and continues to make Him the firm immovable basis of the new work of building. He does this through His Resurrection and Ascenscion.

By the new Temple, Christ's body, I'm talking spiritual and invisible Temple. It's constructed in each and every baptized person in the living Cornerstone, Christ---to the degree that they adhere to Him and 'grow' towards the fullness of Him.

In this temple and by means of it, "the dwelling place of God in the Holy SPirit, He is glorified by virtue of the holy priesthood, which offers spiritual sacrifices, 1St.Peter 2:5, and His kingdom is established in the world. The prayer that Christ Jesus taught, is "thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven".

Pope John Paul II in one of his sermons in 1981 in Madrid, said, "The apex of the new temple reaches into heaven , while on earth. Christ the Cornerstone, sustains it by means of the foundation He Himself has chosen and laid down ---"the Apostles and prophets" Eph. 2:20 ---and their successors, that is, in the first place the college of bishops and "the rock", Peter.

Christ Jesus is the stone, and this indicates His strength becasue in Him the two peoples, the Jews and Gentiles, are joined together. St. Augustine expressed his faith in the perennial endurance of the Chruch, "the Chruch will shake if its foundation shakes, but can Christ shake? As long as Christ does not shake, so shall the Chruch never weaken until the end of time."

What I go by in understanding all of this comes from the teaching of Pius XII. "Every faithful Christian must stay fixed to the solid Cornerstone of Christ by cooperating in his way of sanctification. The Church 'grows when Christ is, after a manner, built into the souls of men and grows in them, and when souls are also built into Christ and grow in Him, so that on this earth of our exile a great temple is daily in course of building, in which the diving majesty receives due and acceptable worship".

When we get further into the Book of Apocaplyse you'll see it speaks of the Temple as the Chruch (spritual Temple) and as us, we are the Temple too.

no, I'm going to show you (when we get there) that this temple is literal...just like Ezekiel described in his book. Remember if it makes sense.....seek no other sense. What you're doing here Lula is spiritualizing something that was meant to be taken literally.

but his public chaining occurred when the Temple of Jerusalem fell. From here on Christ rules with his saints over a world-wide spiritual kingdom

What scripture are you using to back this up with?

The Millennium is the present Church age in which Christ is reigning in the Church Temple and in the Temple of our body. The secret Rapture idea is simply a token of a falsly spiritualized note notion of believers.

You have a double sided argument here. On one hand you say we are spiritualizing with the rapture but you're doing the same thing with the Millennium...which is to be a literal 1,000 year reign.

We are in the last days now..Christ founded His kingdom during the First Advent; it's the Church.

now this I can agree with.

The 7 year Great Tribulation has already occurred and ended at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Daniel's timeline has already been fulfilled. Today, the Chruch and yes, believers are going through trial, tribulation and persecution. Our faith is being tested. It's a fire and we are being purified. Some will fall away. Worse times are ahead

This is from the preterist POV which you know Lula I reject...what verse can you pinpoint to the seven year tribulation has already been fulfilled?

Yes, Satan is bound to the point that this is the time where conversion is still ongoing.

Believe me....if Satan were bound......there would be a whole lot more conversion going on.

This is a spiritual battle

WAIT A MINUTE.....WAIT A MINUTE.....How can we be in a spiritual battle when Satan is bound? This is a real lulu Lula.

God will cause all men, the living and the dead to be summoned to the Last Judgment. All of us, everyone everywhere, will come before Christ at the Last Judgment. Scripture tells the order of the who, the how and where this will occur.

Nope. Don't buy this at all...but you'll see when we get closer to that. No sense to hit this now...it's off the path of 4:1.

There is no time that Scripture allows for a silent or secret coming of Christ to Rapture or take up believers. The Rapture is an unbiblical concept.

Really? Pretty Dogmatic? Well consider these points.

The Rapture:

1. Christ comes in the air (1 Thess 4:16-17)
2. He comes FOR his saints (1 Thess 4:16-17)
3. The rapture is a mystery, ie a truth unknown in OT times (1 Cor 15:51)
4. The rapture takes place in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor 15:52). This strongly implies that it will not be witnessed by the world.
5. The rapture is presented as a time of blessing (1 Thess 4:18)

We know that the Jews were expecting their Messiah. He was to come to the earth and set up an earthly kingdom. That's what they wrote about all thru the OT starting with Moses. That's why they rejected Christ. He did not do as expected. That's why Paul told us this was a mystery. Now they knew he was coming so what could the mystery be? It had to be something unknown to them prior right? Here Paul is saying, he is coming but he's coming for his own and they will be "caught up" which is NOT written in the OT. Besides, how can they find comfort in Paul's words if they were going to experience the "wrath of God" during the Great Tribulation?

Now for the "second coming."

1. He comes TO the earth (Zech 14:4) (not in the air)
2. He comes WITH his saints (1 Thess 3:13, Jude 14) We see in Thess he came with his angel. No mention of saints.
3. This revelation is not a mystery; it is the subject of many OT prophecies (Ps 72, Isaiah 11; Zech 14).
4. The coming will be visible worldwide (Matt 24:27; Rev 1:7) unlike the rapture
5. The main emphasis of this coming will be judgment (2 Thess 2:8-12)

The time of the Chruch blessing is known as the Millennium. St.John describes the Chruch age in Apoc. 20:1-6.

What? We're not in the church age now? I'm not going ahead here but it's not the church age in view here in 20:1-6 Lula. We're in the church age right now. 20:1-6 is immediately after the tribulation when Christ comes to set up the Kingdom that the Jews have been waiting for ALL these years. Just as a side note....did you notice it says: "first resurrection" in v5? So that would mean there's more than one isn't there? We'll get there eventually.

It's so interesting becasue in Scripture the symbolic meaning bears more importance than the literal numerical value. We see this throughout Scripture and I'm sure KFC agrees.

No Lula. All the groups out there have diff "spiritual" meanings for what should be taken literally. So who's right? I know I know....the Catholics right? But if you ask a JW or an Adventist, they'd strongly disagree with you......their symbols make much more sense to them. I'm saying....they are not symbols. they are literal....although the book of Revelation does have symbols but the symbols stand for something that we can immediatly verify using the rest of scripture to unlock it's meaning.

Scripture states that God owns cattle on a thousand hills. Are we going to start identifying which hills are those exact thousand?

Lula, this is poetry and meant to be read as such. You're reading from Psalms. Like I said...if it makes sense....seek no other sense.

BTW Lula.....you have10 as the day of completion? As far as I know, it's always been 7. Always seen as a complete or perfect number. Seven days of creation. Seven days of the week. Seventy weeks of Daniel, Seven Seals, Seven Scrolls, Seven Bowls, etc.

Alot of people do things with numbers. I don't really get into that game.

Consider the idea that your body is the Temple and Christ hasn't been gone at all...He is here in the Spirit just as He said He would be.

Yes, but why did he tell them in John 14:1-3....I go and prepare a place for you and will come back to take you there? Many believe this is the first mention of the rapture here. Whatever...it's literal, not spiritual. Nothing about judgment is said. Judgment is absent and only for the unbelievers. For the believers they have passed from death to life (so said Jesus) when they came to faith.

The apex of the new temple reaches into heaven , while on earth.

my first thought here Lula, was the tower of Babel. It's not about us reaching to heaven. It's all about God reaching down to earth.

lula posts:

What I meant by that is that Satan is bound now in such a way he can't stop the proclamation of the Gospel. St. Matt. 28

That's why the world isn't swallowed up in paganism and total darkness. Devil hasn't been able to stop the spread of Christianity. Remember, sin comes by way of the flesh, the world and the devil.


The timeline according to the C. Church is quite different from that of the Rapturists.

At the end of the Church age, there'll be a period of deception and greater persecution of the Church as the devil is freed to deceive nations. The persecution will unveil the 'mystery of iniquity" in the form of religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the Truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the antichrist, a pseudo messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God. Christians will be terribly persecuted at the hands of the antichrist just as they have at the hands of his forerunners.

The Church is going to suffer great tribulation that's going to shake the faith of many believers. The Chruch is going to enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final passover when she will follow her Lord in His death and Resurrection Apoc. 19:1-9.

Contrary to the Rapture theory, Christians will not be spared the tribulation.

The Kingdom will be fulfilled by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil which will cause His Bride to come down from heaven.

The full inclusion of the Jews in the Messias's salvation in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles will occur.

The dead will be raised (resurrected) on the last day at the end of the world in close association with CHrist's Second Coming. In the resurrection, the body will be reunited with the soul.

Christ will return to earth in glorious triumpth to judge the living and the dead. Those alive in Christ will "go up" and those dead in Christ will go with Satan and his allies and be thrown into the everlasting fire.

In the consummation of all things, God's kingdom and the world will be transformed into a "new heavens and a new earth"...the Saints will reign with Christ and be glorified in body and soul, and will enjoy perfect fellowship face to face with God for eternity.

LULA POSTS:

The Great Tribulation started with Daniel 7:21, "This horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them". The leader (Caesar Nero) of the fourth kingdom, Rome, will persecute the Infant Church, God's people with varying intensity.

This persecution of the Infant Church started when the "little horn", Nero, needed a scapegoat for the fire that ravaged the city of Rome. The state-sponsored persecution last for approximately 3 years until Nero's attention was diverted by the Jewish-Roman War.

In Daniel 7:25, we are told the length of time during which the little horn will wage war against "the law". It will be "for a time, two times and half a time". The "little horn" who had been making war with the saints now turned his wrath to the law that forbade worship of him. This happened when the Jewish zealots killed the high priest Ananias and burned his palace and put an end to the morning and evening sacrifices for Nero in the Temple. the war upon the war and the law lasted 3 and a half years.

Nero declared war against Jerusalem in February of 67AD. This was the beginning of the Jewish Roman War. By April of 70 AD, Titus began the final siege of Jerusalem. The Roman army came from the north just as Ezekiel 38 and 39 had predicted. In Aug. of 70AD, the Temple of Jerusalem fell which ended biblical Judaism. Their exclusive power to share God with the nations was gone forever with the destruction of the Temple. Is. 2:2-5, 56.

Just as Daniel predicted, Nero declared war in Feb. of 67 and Jerusalem's Temple fell in August of 70AD. Count the months. The Jewish Roman War lasted 42 months precisely 3 and a half years.

Put this together with Nero's earlier persecution and we have the Infant Chruch going through the Great Tribulation. It ended with Daniel's 70th week--the destruction of Jerusalem when the 7 year tribulation has been fulfilled.

Daniel gives us an amazing amount of detail concerning the establishment of GOd's kingdom here on earth. We know from his first statue vision it would occur during the fourth empire, the time of the Roman Empire. Now, we know he predicted some of the events around the reign of Nero including the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Remember that Jesus said that Daniel's Son of man would come in judgment during the Sanhedrin's generation. Well, the destruction of Jerusalem was the 'coming in judgment' of Daniel 7 and St.Matt. 26. It occurred before the close of the first century. There was only one event that occurred during the judgment of the Sanhedrin that would show them Christ was their Judge. The public event that showed the coming in clouds of Christ in victory was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and instigated by Nero. Christ judged Jerusalem with Titus' army. It was a public judgment that proved to all mankind that Jesus was victor in Heaven over His enemies on earth (as He had already ascended into Heaven; He judged from there). So this prophecy has already been fulfilled.
Jesus fulfilled Daniel's Son of man prophecy while in Heaven.

Daniel's 70th week is a far cry from and thousands of years before Christ's Second Coming. You cannot place the second half of Daniel's vision in the future. You also can't claim that the fourth kingdom is going to be reconstituted after 2,000 years and counting, and would still be the same kingdom. C'mon--that's grasping at straws, yet that's what Rapturists want us to believe.

There is no future 7 year Great Tribulation; it's already happened and I just gave you the verse and scenario.

Remember Jesus quoted Daniel 7:13 at His trial before the Sanhedrin? He told them they'd see the day when He would come to judge them, didn't He? Why is the Son of man coming here? To Judge. From Heaven, Jesus judged the Sanhedrin at the destruction of Jerusalem with Titus' Army. If you want to justify a still future 7 year Great Tribulation, you're forced to believe that on the eve of His Crucifixion, Jesus made a promise to the Sanhedrin, but His timing was off some 2,000 years and counting? That's what you call the parenthesis...the 'lull'.

Rapturists split every one of Daniel's visions this way destroying the total unity to justify or substantiate the future 7 year Great Tribulation..you know the one that born again believer's will be 'Raptured' snatched away from. Yah right? What a farciful fancy that is.

Anyway, it's late and today is the Fourth of July. So you'll be the first one I wish a happy and safe Fourth. May God's many blessings be upon you and your family.

Don't forget the Seven perfect Sacraments!

Oh this is funny. You say, it's not about us reaching to Heaven? Of course it is. We raise our eyes to heaven in prayer don't we? We send up our petitions. That what I'm getting at. Don't we reach up to Heaven for vengeance and justice? Or course we do. When we think of God the Father, we look up toward heaven.

The more we discuss, the more I come to think of Protestantism as so one-dimensional.

The apex of the new temple....think not of the tower of Babel , but of those huge white Protestant church steeples pointing up....c'mon where's your imagination?

LULA POSTS:

We read in Daniel, as well as in St. Matt 24 :1-20 the prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem which was exactly fulfilled. And since 70 AD is history, we know what happened....the fledgling Church grew and the Gospel was/will be preached to all nations.

LULA POSTS:


KFC, you seem to admit this yourself in this quote:



and then you offer this:



The following is what other dispensationalists would say to those Scriptural passages you provide as food for thought on supporting the principle behind the secret Rapture theory.

Carl Olson, an expert on Dispensational Protestantism admits that the secret Rapture theory is not taught in Scripture, nor is it's principle. Olson says, "Although many BIblical references are used to support it, the pretribulational rapture has no basis in Scripture. In fact, prominent dispensationalists admit that no clear and obvious scriptural support exists for this belief.

Olson goes on and quotes none other than Tim LaHaye, author of Left Behind. He writes, "LaHaye acknowledges this fact, ironically, at the start of a chapter titled, "Who Says It's Obscure?"

"One objection to the pre-tribulation rapture is that no one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second COming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no passage teaches a post tribulation or mid tribulation, either."

John Walvoord admits the same thing in his first edition of "The Rapture Question" which was taken out in later editions. Walvoord lists no passage from Scripture explicitly teaching the pretribulational rapture for the simple reason that none exists.

So if what I said seems dogmatic, then so be it. LaHaye seems to agree!

LULA POSTS:


St.John 20:1-6 is indeed speaking of the Church age which is the kingdom age---the "thousand years". We are presently living in the Church age, the Millennium.

Above, I said the time of the Church blessing is the Millennium, the "thousand years". Daniel states that the purpose of the 70 weeks is to bestow six blessings. The 70 weeks are decreed to "finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy". All of these six blessings were bestowed as a result of Christ at His First Advent. Daniel has been fulfilled.

The NT confirms that all six benefits of the 70 weeks have been bestowed by Christ through His Passion. Yet, Rapturists claim this isn't so. Why? to hold up the secret Rapture. If these blessings were bestowed by Christ in His First Coming then Daniel's 70th week is also history. If Daniel's weeks are completed, then Rapturists have no basis for a future 7 year Great Tribulation from which they perceive they'll be "snatched" away. If there is no 7 year Great Tribulation, there is no need for a secret Rapture.


Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks clearly point to Christ's First Advent and it's blessings. Daniel's last week denotes 7 "seasons" or decades which went from about 4BC to 67-70AD. The seven decades of covenantal transition go from the Annunciation to the destruction of Jerusalem's (Herod's) Temple. This is the period in which Christ was born, His Passion, Death and Resurrection. When Christ established the New and Everlasting Covenant. It was also the time of covenantal transition as well as the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70AD.

St.John's Apocalypse is also a series of visions describing the seven decades of covenantal transition as well.

It is as you say though, we'll get into this later.

**shudders** BAC's